Charles Drago Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:How do we know that an invasion of Cuba was not actually a real aim of the conspirators rather than a way to maneuver the cover up?
I'm certain that the invasion of Cuba WAS a real aim of some of the conspirators operating at the Facilitator and Mechanic levels.
But I submit that at the Sponsor level there could be found perception of long-term value in the maintenance of a communist "threat" just 90 miles away.
They were going to throw 140 years of the Monroe Doctrine out the window and give up the jewel of the Caribbean, the hub of international narcotics trafficking after decades-long development, and one of the favorite elite party spots...just to have another Commie boogyman?
They could have had Arbenz with Che in Guatemala if they had wanted a West Hem "boogyman".
What real estate do you think was more valuable to the Sponsors -- Cuba or Guatemala? And if you want to open the Asian poppy fields and displace the Corsican Mafia as the as the key producer the last thing you'd want is some stridently ideological dictator taking over your hard fought dope routes.
I think Castro double crossed his American patrons.
Charles Drago Wrote:CASH???
We don't need no stinkin' cash!
And in my case you got what you paid for...
Charles Drago Wrote:Cliff, John,
For the purposes of this thread, I'm not interested in the criminal acts of LBJ or Harriman or anyone else.
OF COURSE those who created Phase I of the cover-up knew it was a lie.
Don't over-complicate my question.
I'll try to ask it one more time:
How were the most powerful people in and around government who, innocent of any involvement in the conspiracy, were told and accepted as being true what today we call the Phase I story, mollified when they asked (and I believe many of them did), "If we go along with this cover-up of Cuban and Soviet complicity for the greater good, how and when will the guilty Cuban and Soviet parties be punished?"
My hope is that I've finally found the words and constructions required to make my point.
Because I'm done trying.
CD I am only going to address Warren. I have never believed that he was convinced "to save 40 million". He, as the story goes, "came out of the room crying" and agreed. I think they had something on him. Something big.
Dawn
Great thread....I also thing the murder of Che is a great analogy, and assisted the innocent who asked. However I never understood how any person would fall for all the bs about LHO and the Commie threat.
Cliff Varnell Wrote:Charles Drago Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:How do we know that an invasion of Cuba was not actually a real aim of the conspirators rather than a way to maneuver the cover up?
I'm certain that the invasion of Cuba WAS a real aim of some of the conspirators operating at the Facilitator and Mechanic levels.
But I submit that at the Sponsor level there could be found perception of long-term value in the maintenance of a communist "threat" just 90 miles away.
They were going to throw 140 years of the Monroe Doctrine out the window and give up the jewel of the Caribbean, the hub of international narcotics trafficking after decades-long development, and one of the favorite elite party spots...just to have another Commie boogyman?
They could have had Arbenz with Che in Guatemala if they had wanted a West Hem "boogyman".
What real estate do you think was more valuable to the Sponsors -- Cuba or Guatemala? And if you want to open the Asian poppy fields and displace the Corsican Mafia as the as the key producer the last thing you'd want is some stridently ideological dictator taking over your hard fought dope routes.
I think Castro double crossed his American patrons.
How, then, do you explain Castro's longevity?
Charles Drago Wrote:How, then, do you explain Castro's longevity?
I think it's his uncanny knack at spotting an exploding cigar.
How do you explain Castro's longevity?
1. Kennedy won the 1960 election.
2. Kennedy refused to send in the navy at Bay of Pigs.
3. Kennedy refused to sanction the bombing of Cuba during the Missile Crisis.
4. Kennedy dismantled Mongoose after that.
5. Johnson was much more interested in Southeast Asia, since he disagreed with Kennedy's withdrawal plan.
Once Mongoose was dismantled, even the CIA was sick of the boom and bang stuff over Cuba. They wanted an invasion. When LBJ and Hoover put the brakes on that, it was three strikes and your out. How many times you going to go to the trough and not drink? LBJ now decided to shift the focus to Vietnam.
And it was that disaster which really allowed Castro to entrench himself and probably saved Nicaragua also.
ANd, by the way, Ruth Paine was in the middle of Nicaragua also. What a coincidence eh?
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:Johnson was much more interested in Southeast Asia, since he disagreed with Kennedy's withdrawal plan.
Once Mongoose was dismantled, even the CIA was sick of the boom and bang stuff over Cuba. They wanted an invasion. When LBJ and Hoover put the brakes on that, it was three strikes and your out. How many times you going to go to the trough and not drink? LBJ now decided to shift the focus to Vietnam.
And it was that disaster which really allowed Castro to entrench himself and probably saved Nicaragua also.
ANd, by the way, Ruth Paine was in the middle of Nicaragua also. What a coincidence eh?
Uh hmmm ...
Johnson and Hoover called the shots.
The CIA struck out.
LBJ decided.
What color is the sky on your world?
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:How do you explain Castro's longevity?
1. Kennedy won the 1960 election.
2. Kennedy refused to send in the navy at Bay of Pigs.
3. Kennedy refused to sanction the bombing of Cuba during the Missile Crisis.
4. Kennedy dismantled Mongoose after that.
5. Johnson was much more interested in Southeast Asia, since he disagreed with Kennedy's withdrawal plan.
Once Mongoose was dismantled, even the CIA was sick of the boom and bang stuff over Cuba. They wanted an invasion. When LBJ and Hoover put the brakes on that, it was three strikes and your out. How many times you going to go to the trough and not drink? LBJ now decided to shift the focus to Vietnam.
And it was that disaster which really allowed Castro to entrench himself and probably saved Nicaragua also.
ANd, by the way, Ruth Paine was in the middle of Nicaragua also. What a coincidence eh?
Also Castro actually had the support of the vast majority of the Cuban people whose lives had materially changed for the better with the new policies. Sure, a few pissed off casino bosses and factory owners and their acolytes who had their scams blown out of the water but for the other 90% they had no intention or desire of returning to the bad old days. And they take very good care of Fidel.
Charles Drago Wrote:Cliff Varnell Wrote:Charles Drago Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:How do we know that an invasion of Cuba was not actually a real aim of the conspirators rather than a way to maneuver the cover up?
I'm certain that the invasion of Cuba WAS a real aim of some of the conspirators operating at the Facilitator and Mechanic levels.
But I submit that at the Sponsor level there could be found perception of long-term value in the maintenance of a communist "threat" just 90 miles away.
They were going to throw 140 years of the Monroe Doctrine out the window and give up the jewel of the Caribbean, the hub of international narcotics trafficking after decades-long development, and one of the favorite elite party spots...just to have another Commie boogyman?
They could have had Arbenz with Che in Guatemala if they had wanted a West Hem "boogyman".
What real estate do you think was more valuable to the Sponsors -- Cuba or Guatemala? And if you want to open the Asian poppy fields and displace the Corsican Mafia as the as the key producer the last thing you'd want is some stridently ideological dictator taking over your hard fought dope routes.
I think Castro double crossed his American patrons.
How, then, do you explain Castro's longevity?
His willingness to give a whole lot of his cocaine smuggling business to Zapata Offshore, is my best guess.
http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi...ontext=csa
JFK's murder may have been the horse's head in Fidelito's bed.
Cliff Varnell Wrote:His willingness to give a whole lot of his cocaine smuggling business to Zapata Offshore, is my best guess.
http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi...ontext=csa
JFK's murder may have been the horse's head in Fidelito's bed.
Genuine research about post revolutionary Cuba from the university of JMWAVE Miami is like looking for Hassidic interpretations of Purim on the Stormfront forum.