08-04-2009, 12:41 AM
08-04-2009, 06:16 AM
Myra Bronstein Wrote::ridinghorse:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/7/1...0?new=true
Myra, that's a very good piece you posted! But you used the 'c' word.....most recoil from it in horror, reflexively. The term deomocratic socialism might be (slightly) more acceptable - or just socialism. It was this that DU moved to their dungeon!? To print that in a real paper paper you'd have to go the Socialist Worker, or some such. Even a university student paper wouldn't print that these days. Maybe in the 70s, but today after the War on just-about-everything....... Thank goodness for the Internet. If they ever turn it off say bye-bye.
Mark Stapleton
08-04-2009, 07:21 AM
I agree. Good piece, Myra.
The shock waves from the steel crisis are underestimated, imo. JFK was permanently alienated from wealthy and powerful business elites, not just the steel industry but right across the spectrum.
It's feasible, even logical from their standpoint, that they were willing to contribute towards any plot to eliminate JFK, maybe even actively canvassing other interested parties for such a plot to be considered.
Apart from recognising their collective potential as conspirators, it's hard getting much further than that.
The shock waves from the steel crisis are underestimated, imo. JFK was permanently alienated from wealthy and powerful business elites, not just the steel industry but right across the spectrum.
It's feasible, even logical from their standpoint, that they were willing to contribute towards any plot to eliminate JFK, maybe even actively canvassing other interested parties for such a plot to be considered.
Apart from recognising their collective potential as conspirators, it's hard getting much further than that.
Myra Bronstein
12-04-2009, 04:30 AM
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Myra Bronstein Wrote::ridinghorse:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/4/7/1...0?new=true
Myra, that's a very good piece you posted! But you used the 'c' word.....most recoil from it in horror, reflexively. The term deomocratic socialism might be (slightly) more acceptable - or just socialism. It was this that DU moved to their dungeon!? To print that in a real paper paper you'd have to go the Socialist Worker, or some such. Even a university student paper wouldn't print that these days. Maybe in the 70s, but today after the War on just-about-everything....... Thank goodness for the Internet. If they ever turn it off say bye-bye.
I've tried making points both ways at different time with different audiences Peter. Sometimes I'll use the words I feel are apt, for example refer to Bush as a "fascist"--and much of "government" and our form of government as "fascism." And I'll use the "C" word. Other times I'll see if euphemisms, like a spoon full of sugar, help the medicine go down.
I've come full circle. I don't think any amount of soft peddling will make the truth more palatable, at least to Americans--most of whom have the emotional maturity of four year olds. They're so terrified of the truth that they might as well be holding their ears and squeezing their eyes shut. Hear no evil; see no evil; speak no evil.
Given that fact I see no point in speaking in cloaked terms about harsh facts. Either someone has the courage and open mindedness to let facts in or they don't. I don't have patience for the ones who don't.
Myra Bronstein
12-04-2009, 04:32 AM
Mark Stapleton Wrote:I agree. Good piece, Myra.
The shock waves from the steel crisis are underestimated, imo. JFK was permanently alienated from wealthy and powerful business elites, not just the steel industry but right across the spectrum.
It's feasible, even logical from their standpoint, that they were willing to contribute towards any plot to eliminate JFK, maybe even actively canvassing other interested parties for such a plot to be considered.
Apart from recognising their collective potential as conspirators, it's hard getting much further than that.
Thanks Mark.
The steel crisis, and more important what it said about President Kennedy's willingness to take on corporations and stand up for the working class, is very significant.
I was made aware of that fact by the great book "Battling Wall Street," which will be on our newfangled Book List.
12-04-2009, 02:42 PM
Myra- you are doing the work of God n' a Half. This is exactly the Sicily - mainland jump we need to be taking. Hopefully we won't owe Lucky!
(Pardon my use of military metaphors, it allows me to convince myself that Im coordinating... SOMETHING)
Daily Kos is a site where you can expect
a) the most facile use of the holy grail -- mindless repetition of the word
Conspiracy Theory by folks whose idea of spirtualism is to channel Chip
Berlet:vroam:
b) the most bang for your buck, because it is among this crowd that
the false dichotomy of conspiracy theory vs its false opposite is the
most reinforced-- it is the equivelent of the non-communist left during
Cold War. This wall can and should be bum rushed. Of course you
understand the importance of sources with this crew. It is important
put up sources that they recognize as legit-- this does not of course
mean that many others that they dont arn't.
c) An incredible source for this is the pages 6-24 of JFK and the
Unspeakable. Here there are incredible footnotes that essentially
invite the namecallers to wrestle in the mud of their choice. See for
example the quote by Daniel Schorr COMPLETE WITH ALL THINGS
CONSIDERED FOOTNOTE. An all things considered quote is the
equivelant of tactical nukes on the beaches of Daily Kos.
I hope to join you asap on Daily Kos, but as I remember I had some tech difficulties on that site. Will type there all day starting May 16th. In the meantime please keep this important beach-head alive.
(Pardon my use of military metaphors, it allows me to convince myself that Im coordinating... SOMETHING)
Daily Kos is a site where you can expect
a) the most facile use of the holy grail -- mindless repetition of the word
Conspiracy Theory by folks whose idea of spirtualism is to channel Chip
Berlet:vroam:
b) the most bang for your buck, because it is among this crowd that
the false dichotomy of conspiracy theory vs its false opposite is the
most reinforced-- it is the equivelent of the non-communist left during
Cold War. This wall can and should be bum rushed. Of course you
understand the importance of sources with this crew. It is important
put up sources that they recognize as legit-- this does not of course
mean that many others that they dont arn't.
c) An incredible source for this is the pages 6-24 of JFK and the
Unspeakable. Here there are incredible footnotes that essentially
invite the namecallers to wrestle in the mud of their choice. See for
example the quote by Daniel Schorr COMPLETE WITH ALL THINGS
CONSIDERED FOOTNOTE. An all things considered quote is the
equivelant of tactical nukes on the beaches of Daily Kos.
I hope to join you asap on Daily Kos, but as I remember I had some tech difficulties on that site. Will type there all day starting May 16th. In the meantime please keep this important beach-head alive.
Myra Bronstein
12-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Nathaniel Heidenheimer Wrote:Myra- you are doing the work of God n' a Half. This is exactly the Sicily - mainland jump we need to be taking. Hopefully we won't owe Lucky!
(Pardon my use of military metaphors, it allows me to convince myself that Im coordinating... SOMETHING)
Daily Kos is a site where you can expect
a) the most facile use of the holy grail -- mindless repetition of the word
Conspiracy Theory by folks whose idea of spirtualism is to channel Chip
Berlet:vroam:
b) the most bang for your buck, because it is among this crowd that
the false dichotomy of conspiracy theory vs its false opposite is the
most reinforced-- it is the equivelent of the non-communist left during
Cold War. This wall can and should be bum rushed. Of course you
understand the importance of sources with this crew. It is important
put up sources that they recognize as legit-- this does not of course
mean that many others that they dont arn't.
c) An incredible source for this is the pages 6-24 of JFK and the
Unspeakable. Here there are incredible footnotes that essentially
invite the namecallers to wrestle in the mud of their choice. See for
example the quote by Daniel Schorr COMPLETE WITH ALL THINGS
CONSIDERED FOOTNOTE. An all things considered quote is the
equivelant of tactical nukes on the beaches of Daily Kos.
I hope to join you asap on Daily Kos, but as I remember I had some tech difficulties on that site. Will type there all day starting May 16th. In the meantime please keep this important beach-head alive.
Thanks again Nathaniel. You also make an important point about proper sourcing, something I've been too undisciplined about everywhere--including here. I'll work on building better cases.
Daily Kos is actually, IMO, a better resource than Democratic Underground in some ways. They do not have heavy handed admins, and they have a membership more likely to engage the debate regardless of which side they're on.