Deep Politics Forum

Today, April 19th, 2009 marks the 14th anniversary of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. With that in mind I would like to open a new thread that I hope will be useful to catalog the facts of the occurrence and allow people to post information about the case.


In my opinion, the bombing was a precursor to what would follow on September 11th, 2001. I believe certain people saw the methods and outcome as a useful blueprint to improve on and perfect for reuse on a grander scale. And I believe those people gained confidence when they saw how quickly the public was willing to stop asking hard questions, forget the discrepancies, ignore evidence to the contrary, and swallow the official explanation. My hope is that 1995 was a more naive time and perhaps some people were more likely to go on record with facts that might point to the truth than we would find today. I think of OKC's local channel 4 news that reported on the multiple bombs and other discrepancies for a while after the explosion. What happened to all that information? Why have we all chosen to forget?

Let’s look at the similarities to 911:
·A building is destroyed and innocent lives are taken under questionable circumstances



·Public outrage is engendered against what is quickly identified as a terrorist threat
·The “perp” is identified within hours; a single horrible monster on which the public can focus easily



The event led to “anti-terrorism” laws that impinge on our
constitutional rights ·The rubble is quickly removed and buried, under armed guard, while still technically a crime scene, making a real forensic analysis impossible



·Witnesses consistently report multiple blasts, confirmed by seismographs;



the government concludes that they were all “mistaken”
· Many security video tapes of the blasts and the events leading up to it, taken from multiple locations, are confiscated by the government and have never been released
·Hard physics casts doubt about the ability of an ANFO bomb, the “official” cause of all the destruction, to have actually caused that destruction (e.g. cool hydrocarbon fires “softening steel” at WTC)



·Some people were tipped off before hand (ATF) and weren’t in their office that morning
·A “patsy” has been put to death and case is officially closed (e.g. 19 “dead” hijackers of 911)
·0ver 20 separate witnesses reported a second individual in the Ryder truck (John Doe #2) who just fell off the map and is now ignored by the FBI



·A person matching “John Doe #2”’s description is arrested and later found beaten to death in his jail cell. Cause of death is determined to be suicide
·FBI told in advance of the impending crime and does not follow up on leads
·After the fact, certain FBI agents told to back off and let some things remain uninvestigated

The more I learn about OK City the more I see that it was a warm up for 911.
For a good analysis of why McVeigh accepted the rap, see:
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...ht=Mcveigh

I am just a little too young to remember where I was when I first heard of JFK’s assassination, but I do remember my parent’s stunned silence as we watched his funeral procession pass by on our grainy black and white TV. After that I have images permanently etched in my mind of where I was and what I was doing when I first learned of RFK’s death, MLK’s assassination, Nixon’s resignation, Vietnam ending with Huey helicopters trying to land on U.S. ships and being pushed over the side, the fall of the Shah, the folly of Carter and the Iran hostages, the failed hope of Reagan, the first Bush war, the coming of Clinton, Ruby Ridge, Waco, Janet Reno and Oklahoma City.

There are threads connecting all. I am only now beginning to discover them. I hope this will be the start of a conversation that will add to one aspect of them, and will help to clarify exactly why at least 169 men, women and children were killed.

Great posting! Jim Jones, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Murrah...a
beginning of the softening up of the public to accept absurd myths.

Jack

Jack White Wrote:Great posting! Jim Jones, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Murrah...a
beginning of the softening up of the public to accept absurd myths.

Jack

Talk about absurd - there are as many in Oklahoma, as in NYC - just one: how does someone commit suicide by beating themselves? How does someeone bring-down a building with one alleged truckload of homemade fertilizer explosive when professionals said it would take [and looked as if] much greater quantities were used, with the signiture of high-explosives. David G. posted a great link somewhere on this Forum to a free download of a great book on OCB. I'll try to find and post again here.

Precursor or unsuccessful causus belli?

The first WTC bombing, the jumbo jet shoot-down off Long Island, and Oklahoma City just may have been invitations to war that were declined, thus necessitating the more "problematic" 9-11 attacks.

Bruce Clemens Wrote:

The comparison photo to the sketch of "John Doe #2" is that of alleged "dirty bomb" terrorist Jose Padilla, aka Abdullah al-Muhajir, who was arrested in 1992, detained as a material witness, designated an enemy combatant, convicted by a federal grand jury in 2007 of conspiring to kill people in an overseas jihad and to fund and support overseas terrorism, was crucified, died, and was buried (sorry; it's Sunday; ignore the last six words).

Are you suggesting that Padilla is Doe 2?

CBS News Transcripts
April 19, 1995, Wednesday
SHOW: CBS EVENING NEWS (6:30 PM ET)
FEDERAL OFFICIALS BEGIN INVESTIGATION OF BOMBING IN OKLAHOMA CITY
ANCHORS: CONNIE CHUNG
BYLINE: JIM STEWART
LENGTH: 406 words

CONNIE CHUNG, co-anchor:Law-enforcement teams are pouring in from Washington here to Oklahoma City trying to help investigate who--who is responsible for this bombing. Some are arv--were already on the scene looking for clues early this morning, while smoke and flames were billowing from the building. Jim Stewart has that part of the story on the investigation.

JIM STEWART reporting:By pure chance, a federal explosives expert was only a block away when Oklahoma City shuddered this morning. Within minutes, he told his bosses the explosion was definitely a bomb, probably in a car, and it was big. ATF Director John Magaw immediately sent two bomb teams to the scene.
Mr. JOHN MAGAW (Director, ATF): ...we'll be looking to--to investigate the entire bombing and what it was made up of, where it was placed, how it got there--all those kind of things.
STEWART: The FBI, which will head the investigation, is also pouring manpower into the case and has alerted field offices to forward suspicious mail to headquarters for a fingerprint comparison with those of suspected terrorists.
Ms. JANET RENO (Attorney General): We will find the perpetrators, and we will bring them to justice. The death penalty is available and we will seek it.
STEWART: Bomb experts say it will take two days to make even an initial evaluation of the blast site. By comparison, the World Trade Center bombing was centered in a garage, and the FBI labs had to analyze more than 3,000 tons of rubble in that case. Victoria Toensing headed up the Justice Department's first anti-terrorism unit.
Ms. VICTORIA TOENSING (Counterterrorism Expert): The FBI and the ATF have an expertise: an ability to take apart a bomb, look at the bomb fragment and tell who made the bomb.
STEWART: But investigating terrorist attacks, say the experts, is still easier than predicting them.
Mr. OLIVER "BUCK" REVELL (Former FBI Terrorism Expert): Federal agencies and local agencies generally are prohibited from collecting intelligence on groups until after the fact. And that, I think, is our biggest weakness.
STEWART: First intelligence reports in this case suggested a revenge attack by the Branch Davidians, many of whose members were killed in a raid by federal agents two years ago today in Waco, Texas. Now the betting here, however, is on Middle Eastern terrorists with a far bigger agenda. Jim Stewart, CBS News, Washington.

As with 911, within minutes what will end up being the official government line is already nailed down. The rest is just window dressing.

"Are you suggesting that Padilla is Doe 2?"

Charles, I haven't connected enough dots to suggest anything yet, but the resemblance is quite good, no? I wonder if he had a tattoo on his arm...

There are many people who seem to come and go in this case- who may have been on someone's payroll. I am intrigued by one Army sergeant Michael Hertig who was in the Ryder dealership on or around the time McVeigh supposedly rented the truck with another "soldier", Todd Bunting

The jury said John Doe No. 2 is most likely Todd Bunting, a U.S. Army soldier who went to Elliott's Body Shop in Junction City, Kan., on April 18, 1995. A day earlier, McVeigh had gone to Elliott's and picked up the Ryder truck he used in the Murrah building bombing. Bunting went to Elliott's with Michael Hertig.
"The similarity of Mr. Hertig to the composite of John Doe No. 1 and the similarity of Todd Bunting to the composite of John Doe No. 2 are remarkable, particularly when you take into account Bunting's tattoo of a Playboy bunny on his upper left arm and the fact that he was wearing a black T-shirt and a Carolina Panthers ball cap when he was at Elliott's Body Shop," said the report.
-The Denver Post January 9, 1999 Saturday 2D EDITION Jury rules out warning, Doe No. 2 in OKC blast
BYLINE: By Howard Pankratz, Denver Post Legal Affairs Writer
SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A-24
LENGTH: 1068 words

. . . Here’s a link to a series of photos showing a Ryder truck at a secure compound inside an Army base not far from Oklahoma City.
The site claims that the photos were taken just days before the bombing but provides no citations. The site states "In a recently discovered news article written by the Washington Post on June 17th, 1997, the Oklahoma National Guard authenticates the following photos as being exactly what they appear to be, photos of a Ryder truck in a clandestine base at Camp Gruber-Braggs."
However a Lexis Nexis search I did this morning fails to produce anything from the Washington Post for that date that confirms this.

Bruce Clemens Wrote:. . . Here’s a link to a series of photos showing a Ryder truck at a secure compound inside an Army base not far from Oklahoma City.
The site claims that the photos were taken just days before the bombing but provides no citations. The site states "In a recently discovered news article written by the Washington Post on June 17th, 1997, the Oklahoma National Guard authenticates the following photos as being exactly what they appear to be, photos of a Ryder truck in a clandestine base at Camp Gruber-Braggs."
However a Lexis Nexis search I did this morning fails to produce anything from the Washington Post for that date that confirms this.

Further digging has found the source:
The Washington Post June 14, 1997, Saturday, Final Edition
Many Militia Groups Scale Back, Distance Themselves From McVeigh
BYLINE: Richard Leiby, Washington Post Staff Writer
SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A08
LENGTH: 835 words

Snippet:
... Other Web sites carry photos of a Ryder truck parked at a military installation in Oklahoma, where conspiracy-minded investigators contend the fertilizer bomb was assembled.
The Oklahoma National Guard confirmed Friday that the aerial photos were indeed taken above Camp Gruber in the fall of 1994 and said the classified project involved weapons sensors and was overseen by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. The National Guard's statement said the truck "had no association whatsoever with the tragedy at the Alfred P. Murrah Building."

Clinton Condemns 'Evil Cowards' for Blast; President Launches Massive Federal Probe; Attorney General Cited Death Penalty
BYLINE: Pierre Thomas; Ann Devroy, Washington Post Staff Writers
SECTION: A SECTION; Pg. A01
LENGTH: 1333 words

Snippet:
...The sophistication of the attack, believed to be the product of a car or truck bomb, and the choice of a federal building as the target made it very likely that terrorists carried out the assault, administration and federal law enforcement officials said...

...The bomb's likely components were powerful C-4 plastic explosive, dynamite, or some combination of ammonium nitrate and another substance, law enforcement sources said. Bomb experts also were investigating the possibility that the car was bunkered, or rigged with solid material on one side to direct the massive force of the blast toward the intended target...

[Note there is a HUGE difference in destructive power, speed of the pressure wave and the ability to obliterate reinforced concrete between C4 and a combination of ammonium nitrate and anything.]

...A senior administration official said Reno told the president that the "sophistication" of the bomb materials and its target placement led to a conclusion that the bombing was not the work of a deranged individual or individuals but instead of what the official called "terrorists."

[Oops...they're going to have to backtrack on that one- the final official line will pin the whole thing on McVeigh and a buddy mixing ANFO in the back of a truck. And besides...what characteristics of the "bomb materials" made them "sophisticated"? I'd like to know how Reno got her inside scoop on the bomb materials so early in the investigation...]

...Still, law enforcement officials warned that it would be ill-advised to jump to conclusions about who staged the assault, particularly because hundreds of leads are coming in and the probe was in its embryonic stages...

[Note this statement came after the "first intelligence reports" referred to in my posting above that had already labeled this as a Branch Davidian reprisal]

...Officials in Washington discounted the importance of an Oklahoma television station report that authorities had ordered a search for two individuals with a "Middle Eastern" appearance, traveling in a brown Chevrolet pickup truck. That could have been just one of hundreds of tips that automatically would have been pursued, the officials said...

[Note- why are people in Washington already discounting importance of leads?]

To me it is of interest to review these early media reports because you can often find what are likely inadvertently truthful slips of the tongue that come out before everyone is on the same page with the official line.

Emphases are mine.
[/FONT]
ABC NEWS
April 20, 1995
SHOW: Day One (ABC 8:00 pm ET)[/FONT]

The Bomb

GUESTS: JAMES FOX, former FBI Director, NY; ART EKROT; CHARLES MANKEN; DAVID BOREN, former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman; DAVID FISHER; DAN ROMERO; MIKE STANLEY, New Mexico Institute of Mining; Gov. FRANK KEATING, ®, Oklahoma[/FONT]
DIANE SAWYER: [voice-over] What kind of bomb could do this? How powerful is this explosive? Day One has learned that for answers to these questions, investigators often look toward a place hundreds of miles away from the Oklahoma bombing site, this test site in Sakora [sp?], New Mexico, the Institute of Mining and Technology, where explosives are studied and tested.

Dan Romero [sp?] is the director of the Institute's Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center.
DIANE SAWYER: [voice-over] So that we could learn more about the way the bomb explodes and the kind of impact it can have, Day One commissioned the Institute's research and testing center to explode a 1,500-pound ANFO bomb similar in size and composition to the one thought to have destroyed the federal building in Oklahoma City.

TECHNICIAN: Charged. Stand by for countdown. Countdown- five, four, three, two, one-

DAN ROMERO: It's actually the pressure wave which comes out of the bomb that causes the damage. We estimate that, oh, five to ten feet away from the bomb, there was probably about 1,500 pounds per square inch. Thirty feet away, there was probably about 50 pounds per square inch. At 27 pounds per square inch, you can essentially rip a building apart.

Umm...

Compressive vs. flexural strength - Troubleshooting
Concrete Producer, The , Dec, 2003
Concrete is usually assumed to be about 10% as strong in tension as it is in compression. Tensile strength is the basis for its ability to resist bending, or its flexural strength.
…For concrete with a compressive strength of 3000 psi, the corresponding calculated tensile strengths using these four approximations are 300, 367, 219, and 478 psi, respectively.

“Rip a building apart.” So Romero’s statement about the strength of concrete is off by at least an order of magnitude. According to Romero, the concrete used in the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building has the tensile strength of fresh adobe. But that would be necessary for an ANFO bomb with a pressure wave of no more than 3000 PSI at the source to do any damage other than break windows 30 feet away.

So WTF is this “Dan Romero? Sawyer listed him as Director of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center. Could he be the same person as Van Romero?


http://infohost.nmt.edu/~red/van.html
1995-1997: Director, Energetic Materials Research & Testing Center, New Mexico Tech. Direct and manage a multi-disciplinary team of scientists, engineers, and staff involved in RDT&E programs in energetic materials. EMRTC provides a working laboratory for conducting research in support of both government and commercial programs in the areas of ordnance, explosives, propellants and other energetic materials. Facilities include over 30 separate test sites, gun ranges and research labs located within a 32 square mile field laboratory. Developed and implemented counter-terrorist program that benefits research and academic programs.

Yup- must be the guy. Wonder why “Dan?” Anyway he’s certainly made good since his rediculous statements in ’95. It pays to be a team player…

The following from http://911review.com/coverup/romero.html
title: New Mexico Tech Vice President Romero Named a Top Lobbyist[/FONT]
authors: George Zamora[/FONT]
New Mexico Tech Vice President Van Romero has been tapped as one of “six lobbyists who made an impact in 2003” in an article featured in this month's issue of Influence magazine.

Romero, who is in charge of research and economic development at the research university in Socorro, was profiled in “The Players,” a special year-end feature in the national magazine which identifies a handful of prominent Washington, D.C. lobbyists who made a mark in 2003.

“From his perch 2,000 miles outside of the Beltway, this physics Ph.D. understands exactly how Washington works,” the article states. “A major chunk of his job involves lobbying for federal government funding, and if the 2003 fiscal year was any indication, Romero is a superstar.”

Romero is credited in the article with being instrumental in procuring about $56 million worth of appropriations for New Mexico Tech for the current fiscal year. This notable achievement also recently caught the eye of editors at The Chronicle of Higher Education as they ranked the university first in the nation among institutions of higher education that receive federal earmarks.

The article in Influence also points out that “Van Romero is proof that the client can be the best lobbyist.”
page: infohost.nmt.edu/mainpage/news/2003/18dec01.html

title: Tech Receives $15 M for Anti-Terrorism Program[/FONT]
author: Amy Hoskins[/FONT]

U.S. Senator Pete Domenici today heralded the release of nearly $15 million to the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (New Mexico Tech), which the institute will specifically use to provide two terrorism-preparedness courses for First Responders.

The funding award was made to the Socorro institution through the U.S. Justice Department's (DOJ) Domestic Preparedness Training and Technical Assistance Program. Domenici, a member of the Commerce, Justice, State and the Judiciary (CJS) Appropriations Subcommittee, secured the program funding in the FY2002 CJS Appropriations Act and last year's emergency supplemental bill.

"New Mexico Tech plays a significant role in supporting our government's anti-terrorism activities. That is why I continue to work to see that federal resources are allocated to support their work," Domenici said. "First Responders from all over the country travel just to receive anti-terrorism training, including this terrorism-preparedness instruction. I fully expect this program to expand as we ramp up homeland security activities."
page: infohost.nmt.edu/mainpage/news/2002/25sept03.html