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Full Version: What the Saudis [our good 'friends' of the National Security State] got up to in Turkey
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Peter Lemkin Wrote:His body has been found - buried in the garden of the Saudi Council General's residence [who left for Saudi 17 days ago]. His body, as the Turks said, was chopped into small pieces and his face had been BADLY disfigured......the skin peeled off completely. These people are Trump and Jared [and a lot of other of that ilk's] buddies and business partners......

Erdogan is playing a very clever game - more so today - as he holds the strongest hand of 'cards'...he has PROOF of the deeds and exactly how they were done - and is not releasing them - forcing the Saudis and the USA to admit the full horrible truth. I usually don't like Ergodan much, but on this he is getting my respect.

It is not clear where this information came from. Haaretz, Sky News and some other news organizations were going with this - but now, officially, publicly, the location of the body is still unknown.........
As I posted previously, this Kashoggi situation seems to resemble the seizure of the USS Pueblo back in 1968. You had a US spy ship seized because it was annoying to a hostile foreign power and the US could do nothing about it.

It's starting to look like Kashoggi was a CIA agent who was in Turkey trying to set up or was involved with some type of covert operation. And the Turks, the Saudis or both didn't like it so they killed him. They also may have tortured him to get the names of other US intel agents. Why else would they torture him unless he had information relevant to spy activities?

So is this just another botched operation like the Bay of Pigs, etc. etc.etc?

At this point, it looks like it is to me. But I have nothing to back that up besides just my gut feelings.

James Lateer
James Lateer Wrote:On a related topic, I was talking also with a person with a degree in Political Science who strongly agrees with me that Elizabeth Warren will be the candidate for the Democrats this next election in 2020.

Another right wing Republican that reinvented herself as a 'progressive'. Got a place in Harvard for a First Nation student under very dubious ancestry and used stolen recipes for 'her' book. Sounds like she will be a perfect fit for when Hilary is too toxic. Because the last thing the Democrats want to do is make any concessions to the working class and run a candidate that actually represents them.
Some interesting points from German media.


German Press Reveals Saudi Spook Saga Behind Khashoggi Disappearance

[Image: spengler-616099132.sized-50x50xf.jpg] By David P. Goldman October 14, 2018
chat 454 comments

[Image: AP_18284761178131.sized-770x415xt.jpg] People hold signs during a protest at the Embassy of Saudi Arabia about the disappearance of Saudi Jamal Khashoggi in Washington. (AP Photo/Jacquelyn Martin, File )

Germany's leading right-of-center daily Die Welt this morning reveals that Jamal Khashoggi was not a journalist, but a high-level operative for the Saudi intelligence service, an intimate of Osama bin Laden, and the nephew of the shadiest of all Arab arms dealers, the infamous Adnan Khashoggi. John Bradley reported last week in the Spectator that Khashoggi, who allegedly met a grisly end in a Saudi consulate in Istanbul, was a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Islamist organization that among other things wants to replace the Saudi monarchy with a modern Islamist totalitarian state.

Beware of Media Sourcing for Jamal Khashoggi 'Scoops'

So much for the whining in the Establishment media about freedom of the press and protection of the rights of journalists. The presumed-dead Khashoggi was a top-level spook who swore fealty to some of the Arab world's nastiest elements, and who played a high-stakes game in Saudi spookdom. We don't know why he disappeared, but we know what we don't know.
Among other things, we know that Khashoggi was bitterly opposed to the new Saudi government's rapprochement with the state of Israel. As a Muslim Brotherhood member, he backed Palestinian intransigence.

Die Welt interviewed the German-Egyptian political scientist Asiem El Difraoui, co-founder of the Berlin think tank Candid Foundation, who met Khashoggi for the first time during the American occupation of Iraq. Here is a translation of the nub of the interview
Die Welt: Mr El Difraoui, you have met Jamal Khashoggi several times. What kind of person was he? Asiem El Difraoui: I met him in about 2003 or 2004, in the circle of former Saudi Arabia intelligence chief Turki Bin Faisal Al Saud. He and Prince Turki were already considering how the kingdom could be modernized. And Jamal had met Osama bin Laden several times. He had tried during the 1990s to move him away from militancy. That was obviously important why he visited bin Laden in Sudan and Afghanistan. He told bin Laden that he should mitigate his criticism of the royal family and return home. Of course, within the elite everyone knows each other. Both came from the same generation and from two of the richest families in the kingdom - bin Laden's father was the country's largest contractor, Khashoggi's uncle Adnan was an influential arms dealer. In addition, Khashoggi's grandfather was personal physician to the Saudi King Abd al-Aziz. But Khashoggi himself also had sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood, in which he saw a more modern, more democratic form of Islamism. For today's Saudi leadership, however, the Muslim Brothers are their principal enemy in the world.
Die Welt: What do you suspect, what could have happened to Khashoggi?
Difraoui: If he was murdered, then I would be surprised if his journalistic activities were the only reason. The Saudis own half of the international Arab media. They have generally built up a very effective media shield. As a journalist and activist, Khashoggi may have been extremely annoying, but no real threat. But Khashoggi knew a lot. He was not just the media officer of intelligence chief Prince Turki. He was one of his main advisers and was said to have worked for the secret service for a while. Khashoggi was extremely familiar with sensitive issues of the kingdom. And he was a member of the super-elite. He might have known too much.
Die Welt: What sort of knowledge could have become dangerous for him?
Difraoui: Corruption or past knowledge about links to extremism. Above all, however, the internal conflicts or misconduct of the royal family. If the secret service protects the security of the country, it must also know what is happening in the ruling family. The current, often unpredictable crown prince Mohammed bin Salman is currently the really strong man in the country. But he has also made enemies in the family. What if his father Salman dies? Then Mohammed will probably have to fight for his position once again. Perhaps Khashoggi's knowledge was dangerous in this regard. His old patron, Prince Turki, wanted to position himself as Crown Prince. He has surprisingly not commented on the case so far. Turki knows almost all internals of the family.

The American Establishment media either ignores or distorts the relevant facts. The Muslim Brotherhood is a "democratic movement," according to the Wall Street Journal's write-up on Jamal Khashoggi: "One of the country's best-known journalists, he clashed with the clerical establishment for his socially liberal views. His sympathy for democratic movements drew the ire of the Saudi government, particularly for the Muslim Brotherhood, which the royal family views as a threat to its absolute monarchy."

Trump: 'Severe Punishment' if Saudi Journalist Was Murdered

On the contrary: as my friend Frank Gaffney has shown at the Center for Security Policy, the Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization and has been since its founding. It is also a threat to American security. Of course, Khashoggi was beloved of Establishment types who believe in the Islamist route to democracy, e.g., David Ignatius of the Washington Post. Ignatius covers the intelligence community, and a big section of the intelligence Establishment remains enamored of the notion of Islamist democracy, for example, George W. Bush's former CIA chief Michael Hayden.

There are no good guys in Saudi Arabia, just bad guys and worse guys. This, after all, is a country ruled by a family, and its family politics often recall Game of Thrones. I condone nothing and endorse no-one, but I don't believe it's America's job to fix the problems of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I'm not interested in bad guys or good guys, just in our guys vs. their guys. So a bit of caution is warranted in drawing conclusions from the Khashoggi affair. We don't know what happened and I don't trust the intelligence Establishment to tell us.

As usual Craig Murray, a former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan where he observed this sort of treatment was regularly meted out to their troublesome citizens, has some good points.


Khashoggi, Erdogan and the Truth 263

24 Oct, 2018 in Uncategorized by craig

The Turkish account of the murder of Khashoggi given by President Erdogan is true, in every detail. Audio and video evidence exists and has been widely shared with world intelligence agencies, including the US, UK, Russia and Germany, and others which have a relationship with Turkey or are seen as influential. That is why, despite their desperate desire to do so, no Western country has been able to maintain support for Crown Prince Mohammed Bin Salman. I have not seen the video from inside the consulate, but have been shown stills which may be from a video. The most important thing to say is that they are not from a fixed position camera and appear at first sight consistent with the idea they are taken by a device brought in by the victim. I was only shown them briefly. I have not heard the audio recording.
There are many things to learn from the gruesome murder other than the justified outrage at the event itself. It opens a window on the truly horrible world of the extremely powerful and wealthy.
The first thing to say is that the current Saudi explanation, that this was an intended interrogation and abduction gone wrong, though untrue, does have one thing going for it. It is their regular practice. The Saudis have for years been abducting dissidents abroad and returning them to the Kingdom to be secretly killed. The BBC World Service often contains little pockets of decent journalism not reflected in its main news outlets, and here from August 2017 is a little noticed piece on the abduction and "disappearance" of three other senior Saudis between 2015-17. Interestingly, while the piece was updated this month, it was not to include the obvious link to the Khashoggi case.
The key point is that European authorities turned a completely blind eye to the abductions in that BBC report, even when performed on European soil and involving physical force. The Saudi regime was really doing very little different in the Khashoggi case. In fact, inside Saudi Arabia, Khashoggi was a less senior and important figure than those other three abducted then killed, about whom nobody kicked up any fuss, even though the truth was readily available. Mohammed Bin Salman appears to have made two important miscalculations: he misread Erdogan and he underestimated the difference which Khashoggi's position as a Washington Post journalist made to political pressure on Western governments.
Khashoggi should not himself be whitewashed. He had a long term professional association with the Saudi security services which put him on the side of prolific torturers and killers for decades. That does not in any sense justify his killing. But it is right to be deeply sceptical of the democratic credentials of Saudis who were in with the regime and have become vocal for freedom and democracy only after being marginalised by Mohammed Bin Salman's ruthless consolidation of power (which built on a pre-existing trend).
The same scepticism is true many times over when related to CIA Director Gina Haspel, who personally supervised torture in the CIA torture and extraordinary rendition programme. Haspel was sent urgently to Ankara by Donald Trump to attempt to deflect Erdogan from any direct accusation of Mohammed Bin Salman in his speech yesterday. MBS' embrace of de facto alliance with Israel, in pursuit of his fanatic hatred of Shia Muslims, is the cornerstone of Trump's Middle East policy.
Haspel's brief was very simple. She took with her intercept intelligence that purportedly shows massive senior level corruption in the Istanbul Kanal project, and suggested that Erdogan may not find it a good idea if intelligence agencies started to make public all the information they hold.
Whether Erdogan held back in his speech yesterday as a result of Haspel's intervention I do not know. Erdogan may be keeping cards up his sleeve for his own purpose, particularly relating to intercepts of phone and Skype calls from the killers direct to MBS' office. I have an account of Haspel's brief from a reliable source, but have not been updated on who she then met, or what the Turks said to her. It does seem very probable, from Trump's shift in position this morning to indicate MBS may be involved, that Haspel was convinced the Turks have further strong evidence and may well use it.
Meantime, the British government maintains throughout that, whatever else happens, British factories will continue to supply bombs to Saudi Arabia to massacre children on school buses and untold numbers of other civilians. Many Tory politicians remain personally in Saudi pockets, with former Defence Minister Michael Fallon revealed today as being amongst them.
It is of course extraordinary that Saudi war crimes in Yemen, its military suppression of democracy in Bahrain, its frequent executions of dissidents, human rights defenders, and Shia religious figures, even its arrests of feminists, have had little impact in the West. But the horrible murder of Khashoggi has caught the public imagination and forced western politicians to at least pretend to want to do something about the Saudis whose wealth they crave. I expect any sanctions will be smoke and mirrors.
Mohammed Bin Salman is no fool, and he realises that to punish members of his personal security detail who were just following his orders, would put him in the position of Caligula and the Praetorian Guard, and not tend to his long term safety. Possibly people will be reassigned, or there will be brief imprisonments till nobody is looking. If I were a dissident or Shia in Saudi Arabia who bore any kind of physical resemblance to any of the party of murderers, I would get out very quick.
With every sympathy for his horrible murder, Khashoggi and his history as a functionary of the brutal Saudi regime should not be whitewashed. Mohammed Bin Salman is directly responsible for his murder, and if there is finally international understanding that he is a dangerous psychopath, that is a good thing. You will forgive me for saying that I explained this back in March whilst the entire mainstream media, awash with Saudi PR cash, was praising him as a great reformer. For the Americans to deploy Gina Haspel gives us a welcome reminder that they are in absolutely no position to moralise. Whatever comes of this will not be "justice". The truth the leads can reveal is much wider than the narrow question of the murder incident, as I hope this article sketches out. That the fallout derails to some extent the murder machine in Yemen is profoundly to be hoped.
Sibel Edmonds has been in Turkey, setting up an international hub for when all this Khashoggi event happened and the Saudi cover up has been unwinding. She is in close contact with sources and experts there. I strongly recommend reading the pinned thread on her Twitter.
Hundreds of updates from the beginning. And some very tantalising points. Motherlode.

Best go read the Twitter thread. Plenty of photos and videos as well. And the comments of course also hold many gems. As do the comments in Craig Murray's posts.

Some of the salient points here:

1. What was his last case? What was he working on? And why has WaPo and others been so quiet about this?
2. Why not abduct him or kill him quietly in a car accident or robbery gone wrong or similar? There were others, foreigners, not Saudi, in the embassy who also saw and heard things. Why risk exposure? Other dissident Saudi's have been kidnapped and returned to Saudi Arabia for execution.
3. Who is the fiancée? She is unknown to Khasshoggi's Saudi family. Initial reports have many different spelling of her name. Her Twitter history suggests she is supporter of the terrorist Gulen cult/network.
4. Who are all the western political and diplomatic and media accepting Saudi money to white wash this and the House of Saud in general? It has been an ongoing project for a few years now.
5. Khashoggi has very close ties with Osama Bin Laden. Therefore also CIA.
6. Why come to Turkish embassy when his matter could have been just as easily sorted at the Saudi embassy in the US?
7. Did the US know in advance what he was walking into? Seems they did with their intercepted communications. Why didn't they let him know and let him walk into this?
8. The Kuwait Army signed a defence co-operation agreement with the Turkish army. October 10th around.
9. Were his brother and his wife butchered in Saudi Arabia around Monday 8th Oct?
10. FBI declassification underway in Saudi 9/11 lawsuit. Friday Oct 12th
11. As of 2010 China is now the largest trading partner for Saudi Arabia and there are closer ties because of the Belt and Road Initiative. And announced on August 24 that Saudi Arabia planned to partially cover its budget deficit in Chinese yuan to reduce its financial dependency on the U.S. dollar.
12. Trump will host the fiancée at the White House. She is part of the Gulen cult/network. Gulen is enemy of Erdogan and wanted for crimes in Turkey.
13. Saudi Arabia's currency fell to its lowest level in two years and its international bond prices slipped on Monday over fears that foreign investment inflows could shrink as Riyadh faces pressure over the disappearance of journalist Jamal Khashoggi. How was the Turkish currency? Whose making money on the shorting?
14. Massive disappearing of links and facts on Khashoggi's Wiki entry.

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=9641&stc=1]
Here is "Journalist" Jamal Khashoggi May 4th 1988 Arab Youth Fighters (Long before this picture he joined CIA & Osama Bin Laden Ops Against the Soviet; he became an intimate US-CIA-Saudi Intel coordinator in Saudi Arabia after that)
Saudi Arabia's missing princes

By Reda El Mawy

  • 14 August 2017

Image captionPrince Sultan bin Turki, pictured centre
Between 2015 and 2017, three Saudi princes living in Europe disappeared. All were critical of the Saudi government - and there is evidence that all were abducted and flown back to Saudi Arabia… where nothing further has been heard from them.
Early in the morning on 12 June 2003, a Saudi prince is being driven to a palace on the outskirts of Geneva.
His name is Sultan bin Turki bin Abdulaziz, and the palace belongs to his uncle, the late King Fahd. It's the king's favourite son, Prince Abdulaziz bin Fahd, who has invited him to breakfast.
Abdulaziz asks Sultan to return to Saudi Arabia - where he says a conflict over Sultan's criticisms of the Saudi leadership will be resolved.
Sultan refuses, at which point Abdulaziz excuses himself to make a phone call. The other man in the room, the Saudi Minister of Islamic Affairs, Sheikh Saleh al-Sheikh, leaves too and after a few moments masked men rush in. They beat Sultan and handcuff him, then a needle is plunged into his neck.
Unconscious, Sultan is rushed to Geneva airport - and carried on to a Medevac plane that is conveniently waiting on the tarmac.
Such, at least, is Sultan's account of the events, as told to a Swiss court many years later.
Among Sultan's staff, waiting at a Geneva hotel for him to return from his breakfast appointment, was his communications officer, Eddie Ferreira.
"Progressively, as the day went on the silence became deafening," he remembers. "We couldn't reach the security team. That was the first real alert. We tried to contact the prince; there was no response, no answer."
Then, in the afternoon, two unexpected visitors arrived.
"The Saudi ambassador to Switzerland came in with the general manager of the hotel and quite simply just told everybody to vacate the penthouse and get out," Ferreira says. "The prince was in Riyadh, our services were no longer required, and we could leave."
What had Prince Sultan done that could have led his family to violently drug and kidnap him?
The previous year he had arrived in Europe for medical treatment, and started giving interviews critical of the Saudi government. He condemned the country's record on human rights, complained about corruption among princes and officials, and called for a series of reforms.
Ever since 1932, when King Abdulaziz, known as Ibn Saud, founded Saudi Arabia, the country has been ruled as an absolute monarchy. It does not tolerate dissent.
Image copyrightGETTY IMAGES[Image: _97326564_gettyimages-2555213.jpg]
Image captionPrince Turki bin Bandar meets Pakistan's finance minister in 2003Prince Turki bin Bandar was once a major in the Saudi police, with responsibility for policing the royal family itself. But a bitter family dispute over a contested inheritance landed him in prison, and on his release he fled to Paris, where, in 2012, he began posting videos on YouTube calling for reform in Saudi Arabia.
The Saudis reacted as they had with Prince Sultan, and tried to persuade Turki to return. When Ahmed al-Salem, the deputy minister of the interior called, the prince recorded the conversation and posted it online.
"Everybody's looking forward to your return, God bless you," says the deputy minister.
"Looking forward to my return?" replies Turki. "What about the letters your officers send me? 'You son of a whore, we'll drag you back like Sultan bin Turki.'"
The deputy minister replies reassuringly: "They won't touch you. I'm your brother."
"No they're from you," says Turki. "The Ministry of Interior sends them."
Turki went on publishing videos until July 2015. Then, sometime later that year, he disappeared.
"He called me every month or two," says a friend, the blogger and activist Wael al-Khalaf.
"Then he disappeared for four or five months. I was suspicious. [Then] I heard from a senior officer in the kingdom that Turki bin Bandar was with them. So they'd taken him, he'd been kidnapped."
After a long search for news of Turki, I found an article in a Moroccan newspaper, which said that he had been about to return to France after a visit to Morocco, when he was arrested and jailed. Then, following a request from the Saudi authorities, he was deported with the approval of a Moroccan court.
We don't know for certain what happened to Turki bin Bandar, but before he disappeared he gave his friend Wael a copy of a book he'd written, in which he had added what may be a prophetic note.
"Dear Wael, these statements are not to be shared unless I am kidnapped or assassinated. I know I will be kidnapped or they will assassinate me. I also know how they abuse my rights and those of the Saudi people."
[Image: _97327878_2d0329f8-7b9e-445c-bc04-777ce9486c6e.jpg]
Image captionSaud bin Saif al-NasrAround the same time as Prince Turki vanished another Saudi prince, Saud bin Saif al-Nasr - a relatively minor royal with a liking for Europe's casinos and expensive hotels - shared a similar fate.
In 2014 Saud began writing tweets that were critical of the Saudi monarchy.
He called for the prosecution of Saudi officials who'd backed the overthrow of Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi the previous year.
Then, in September 2015, Saud went further.
After an anonymous Saudi prince wrote two letters calling for a coup to remove King Salman, Saud publicly endorsed them - the only royal to do so. This was tantamount to treason, and may have sealed his fate.
A few days later, he tweeted: "I call for the nation to turn the content of these letters into popular pressure." Then his Twitter account went silent.
Another dissident prince - Prince Khaled bin Farhan, who fled to Germany in 2013 - believes Saud was tricked into flying from Milan to Rome to discuss a business deal with a Russian-Italian company seeking to open branches in the Gulf.
"A private plane from the company came and took Prince Saud. But it didn't land in Rome, it landed in Riyadh," Khaled says.
"It turned out Saudi intelligence had fabricated the entire operation," he claims.
"Now Prince Saud's fate is the same as Prince Turki's, which is prison… The only fate is an underground prison."

There have been these and other abductions from Europe and other places and these are also known the European authorities but they have not garnered the same response as has Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance. So some thing special afoot about Khashoggi. Apparently he had also bought a property there and was also going to be setting up some sort of organisation.
Magda Hassan Wrote:There have been these and other abductions from Europe and other places and these are also known the European authorities but they have not garnered the same response as has Jamal Khashoggi's disappearance. So some thing special afoot about Khashoggi. Apparently he had also bought a property there and was also going to be setting up some sort of organisation.

There was a report I read somewhere that Khashoggi was a CIA guy. If true maybe that was what caused this unusual reaction? That and the fact that Trump has aligned so closely with Mohammed Bone Saw and taking the latter down hurts Trump too.

The serpentine and cynical twists of foreign policy and political in-fighting...
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