Deep Politics Forum

There are several old and not so old threads on our Forum on the OKC bombing... They can be found using a search engine asking Deep+Politics+Forum+Oklahoma+Bombing or our own internal search engine. Here is one started by my dear and departed friend Adele E... [URL="https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?11448-The-Oklahoma-City-Bombing-A-Noble-quot-Lie&highlight=Oklahoma+City#.Xc8VVa97kn8"]HERE


[/URL]

Anthony - You may be interested in this 2013 policy study about the reasoning behind the 9/11 conspiracy.

The Moral Decoding of 9-11: Beyond the U.S. Criminal State
By John McMurtry (Journal of 9/11 Studies Volume 35, February 2013)

Unless, as is rumored, sensitive government case files were destroyed or "lost" at the Murrah Building, OKC seems a singularly failed and pointless operation. Because of the explosives failures, only as much was learned about taking down a building as was exhibited at the first WTC bombing: don't use a truck bomb; hire demolitions experts. What a sad waste of life and money - not that a successful take-down would be otherwise.

Edited. I'll have a look at the essay, thanks.

Peter, I looked at the Oklahoma thread you linked and the first page has a lot of posts by me on it. Maybe I should re-read them.

Some of the stuff I have to say on the broader topic probably deserves its own thread.

More shortly.

Anthony, your line:

and somewhere along the way, a good time out from the event itself, you're going to need to blow up a building - preferably one with a somewhat similar design or layout to the WTC, but on a smaller scale - to see if your multiple explosive devices are going to work and initiate a collapse the way that you think they will, or if further testing - or replacement methods - will be required.

Weren't the Murrah Building floors hung on four huge concrete and steel corner posts, with only one post destroyed because other charges failed? The available anecdotal accounts of explosive devices removed from the building suggest that the number of unexploded devices found was few, and speculation is that the corner posts were targeted, not the individual floors.

Curious to see how the Murrah model corresponds to the floor-by-floor pancaking at WTC, caused by sequential explosives. Unless the comparison point is the large central columns at WTC that were targeted in the first bombing, and which were said to be exploded just after the plane hits and before the sequential explosions on 9/11. Is there a study that shows the Murrah Bldg. as an applicable model for WTC?

EDITED FOR CLARITY

I've seen little else online making the comparisons that we're touching on here. There's a decent amount of discussion here and there covering Oklahoma as a false flag event, but not much discussion, if any, debating whether it was a practice run of examining certain methods of bombing a building.

And the WTC destruction wasn't going to be a regular demolition. It had to be a demolition that could be passed off as a pancaking collapse due to fire, and however well or badly you might think they eventually managed that goal, it appears a certain amount of effort was put in to make things not look like your average building demolition by explosives. I'll exclude WTC7 from that observation though as that's a different event which was obviously less disguised on the day.

From memory, James Woolsey popped up not long after the OK bombing on television, blaming Iraq. Within months he was venturing into a near year-long stay at Los Alamos, undertaking a terrorism study' with Joseph Nye that included dozens of other figures from military, media, government, intel agencies and science. Through 1995, the year of the bombing, related cohorts of his were running similar conferences on bioterrorism. In 1997, when Woolsey had finished his Los Alamos activities, the same groups had moved on to the study of Catastrophic Terrorism'. There's a lot of names that reoccur among the groups, and imminent terrorism was the continuing theme. So it's striking, one way or another, that the Oklahoma event occurred in the thick of those ongoing meetings and discussions, and striking that Woolsey wasted little time in linking Oklahoma to Iraq.

Anthony Thorne Wrote:I've seen little else online making the comparisons that we're touching on here. There's a decent amount of discussion here and there covering Oklahoma as a false flag event, but not much discussion, if any, debating whether it was a practice run of examining certain methods of bombing a building.

And the WTC destruction wasn't going to be a regular demolition. It had to be a demolition that could be passed off as a pancaking collapse due to fire, and however well or badly you might think they eventually managed that goal, it appears a certain amount of effort was put in to make things not look like your average building demolition by explosives. I'll exclude WTC7 from that observation though as that's a different event which was obviously less disguised on the day.

From memory, James Woolsey popped up not long after the OK bombing on television, blaming Iraq. Within months he was venturing into a near year-long stay at Los Alamos, undertaking a terrorism study' with Joseph Nye that included dozens of other figures from military, media, government, intel agencies and science. Through 1995, the year of the bombing, related cohorts of his were running similar conferences on bioterrorism. In 1997, when Woolsey had finished his Los Alamos activities, the same groups had moved on to the study of Catastrophic Terrorism'. There's a lot of names that reoccur among the groups, and imminent terrorism was the continuing theme. So it's striking, one way or another, that the Oklahoma event occurred in the thick of those ongoing meetings and discussions, and striking that Woolsey wasted little time in linking Oklahoma to Iraq.

I've been saying since shortly after the first basement bombing of the WTC, that OKC was a 'test-run' and 'mock-up' for it and the BIG EVENT that followed on 9-11-01. The details are lost to my memory now, sadly, as I'm moving all of my books are packed away, but if memory serves me a few FBI guys who seemed to be suspiciously connected to those around McVeigh were later also suspiciously connected the those around the 'Blind Sheik' who was blamed for the basement bombing. The THREE events in my mind were linked in purpose/effect and by who was ultimately behind them [pulling the hidden strings]. I'm sure that most of the people involved were different in all three, but I'm also fairly sure that the same 'authors' were behind the three and no doubt many other black ops we have seen and some we have not seen yet but have already happened. Your Woolsey notes are noted...but I think there were also some FBI guys some researchers fingered.....

(15-11-2019, 06:07 PM)Peter Lemkin Wrote: [ -> ]One big question in my mind is how they forced or bought the silence of McVeigh.  

I don't believe that they had to force this or buy this from McVeigh.  

McVeigh, I believe, wanted to be a martyr and wanted to go down for the cause.  He fled the scene of the crime driving a car with no license plate on it, carrying a .45 in a shoulder holster, a knife on his belt, and had in an envelope in his glove box newspaper clippings about Waco. He was wearing a t-shirt that talked about murdering federal agents, saying "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants."  In short, he was incredibly conspicuous that day and ready to get caught, with his political message on full display. 

When he was pulled over, he could have shot Trooper Charlie Hanger in the head and fled the scene.  He did not.  He was cordial, calm, and went willingly.

To get into his mindset you have to understand he was a soldier, first and foremost.  He was willing to die for his beliefs, and to protect all of his compatriots whom he considered fellow soldiers. He would never turn on his 'comrades' and he lavished the role of 'patriot martyr' for his radical white supremacist cause. 

Notable: McVeigh was given a polygraph test by his lawyers.  McVeigh failed on 3 questions on that polygraph test.  Every question he showed 'signs of deception' on dealt with the issue of conspirators.

Hell, Michael Fortier testified against McVeigh--star witness against him at trial--and if McVeigh wanted to, he could have retaliated. Fortier cased the building with McVeigh, he helped McVeigh transport stolen weapons, he told Fortier all about the bomb plot, and he visited a white supremacist compound called Elohim City with Fortier.  Fortier was, then, by extension, an accessory.  Even though Fortier testified against him, McVeigh said nothing.

Additionally, McVeigh harbored no ill-will towards Michael Fortier.  He had a chance to speak to him when he was housed a federal facility which is recounted in a book written by one of McVeigh's cell-mates. Which is highly questionable, by the way. However, according to this cellmate, McVeigh spoke very friendly about Fortier, and when he had the chance to talk to him, he asked him how he was doing, etc, told him to hang in there, and was on good terms. 

The only person that McVeigh showed any interest in implicating was Terry Nichols -- who appears to have been brought into the plot specifically for the purpose of McVeigh using him.  He used his credit cards, used his car, and used him to shelter the other accomplices by claiming that Nichols, and only Nichols, helped him.  Meanwhile, hundreds of FBI 302 reports show that McVeigh was with at least 4-5 other men at the scene of the crime while Nichols was at home in Kansas on April 19th.

Nichols may know who some of these other accomplices are.  However, he appears to be keeping his mouth shut, too.  I believe it's because he fears for his son and ex-wife's life.  He has stated that he knows who John Doe #2 is, but he is not going to identify him specifically because he fears for the life of his family members.

His son, Josh Nichols, was arrested on felony charges in Las Vegas last week.  He will be going to prison -- and I suspect he will be murdered there by the Aryan Brotherhood. The accomplices in this bombing were, like McVeigh, neo-Nazi white supremacists. 

Attached is an image of some of the people who I think were McVeigh's conspirators, and a brief rundown below on their connections to the bombing, with sources, below:

FBI: 'McVeigh and His Associates' were The Aryan Republican Army aka "The Midwest Bank Bandits"
by Richard Booth | April 9th, 2020

A May 4th, 1995 FBI memo referred to a white supremacist bank robbery gang as 'McVeigh and his associates.' That memo refers to an FBI teletype dated April 27th, 1995 relating to bank robberies suspected to have financed the Oklahoma City Bombing. This information was subsequently reported in the news media, with an April 28th 1995 LA Times piece saying that "FBI officials are actively investigating whether the conspirators responsible for bombing the federal building here may have financed their activities with a spree of unusual bank robberies across the midwest."  The bank robbery gang was finally rolled-up by the FBI in 1996 and 1997.  The members arrested and identified were: Mark Thomas, Pete Langan, Richard Guthrie, Kevin McCarthy, Scott Stedeford, and Michael Brescia.  One member, who was not arrested, was an FBI informant named Shawn Kenney. Due to his role as an informant, he was not arrested, indicted, or prosecuted for his role in assisting the gang in carrying out casing banks and robbing them in a spree of 22 bank robberies that netted the gang $250,000, most of which they used to finance violent white supremacist groups. 

At the trial of one of the bank robbers, suspect Kevin McCarthy testified that "Our goal was to open the door to overthrow the United States government" and to "commit terrorist acts against the United States government."

Another member, Richard Guthrie, told a journalist that he'd made a deal with federal prosecutors that included a promise to provide them with information about organizations whose goal "is the overthrow of the U.S. government" and to "engage in domestic terrorism." Guthrie said that he was both writing a book about the gang, and also had "a couple of grand juries" he was going to talk to. Guthrie was found dead in his prison cell days after talking to a Los Angeles reporter about these matters.

Two members of the gang, Peter Langan and Mark Thomas, have both indicated that they believe member Kevin McCarthy was involved in the Oklahoma City Bombing. 

Mark Thomas was quoted in a January 31st 1997 newspaper report saying that gang member Richard Guthrie had told him McCarthy "took out the Murrah building" and some say he might have been one of the people seen with Timothy McVeigh the morning of the bombing by over 24 witnesses. Langan testified in an affidavit that McCarthy had lied about his whereabouts on April 19th, 1995, and that he suspected McCarthy was connected to the bombing.

Langan also testified in his affidavit that McCarthy had told him, in cryptic language, that he had "liabilities" concerning the Oklahoma City bombing. Langan said that he "strongly believed" that Kevin McCarthy had obtained blasting caps from Timothy McVeigh that were stolen from a quarry and later used in the Oklahoma City bombing. The FBI destroyed the blasting caps, which were initially part of the evidence held against the gang at a Cincinnati FBI field office. In a 2005, the FBI, acting on a tip from a prison informer, raided Terry Nichols' former home where they recovered blasting caps, supposedly from the same cache, which the FBI also destroyed. According to journalist Roger Charles, a highly-placed source advised that evidence seized in the 2005 raid of Nichols' former home included some materials containing the fingerprints of gang leader Richard Lee Guthrie.  The FBI denied this in a report published three years after the raid, where they declared that all of the recovered evidence (which was meticulously sealed in plastic wrap) had been "routinely destroyed."  

Still other news reports would connect McVeigh to the gang. A July 19th, 1995 LA Times piece quotes Timothy McVeigh's sister as saying that her brother was involved in bank robberies and had asked her to launder proceeds of the bank robbery money. The FBI discovered this during interviews during their investigation, and subsequently asked Michael Fortier during two consecutive interviews about the bank robberies. Fortier later testified at the Nichols federal trial that he feared "reprisals" from "Aryans" if he were to testify against Timothy McVeigh. Was he referring to the Aryan Republican Army? Were members of this gang the Oklahoma City Bombing co-conspirators? The evidence suggest that, and indeed, several members of the gang have said that it was involved in carrying out the deadliest domestic terror attack in U.S. history. 

Sources:
* FBI memo insert E-4206 04 May 1995 SF Field Office
* Fritz, Sara and David Savage. "FBI Turns Focus to Unsolved Bank Heists." The LA Times, 28 April 1995.
* Willman, David and Ronald Ostrow. "Investigators Believe Bombing Was the Work of 4 or 5 People." The LA Times, 28 April 1995
* John Solomon. "FBI Suspected McVeigh Link to Robbers." Associated Press, 25 February 2004.
* "White Separatists Indicted." The Washington Post, 31 January 1997.
* "Robberies Paid for Terrorism, A Jury Is Told." The New York Times, 31 January 1997.
* Pasternak, Judy and Stephen Braun. "Suicide Rocks White Supremacist Probe." The LA Times, 13 July 1996.
* Robert Ruth. "Bank Bandits Leader Who Killed Self Planned to Write Book, Letter Says." Columbus Dispatch, 31 January 1997.
* "Thomas Indicted in Bank Robberies." The Morning Call, 31 January 1997.
* J.D. Cash. "Langan to Testify at Nichols Trial, Name Others in OKC." The McCurtain Gazette, 29 January 2004.
* Declaration of Peter Kevin Langan, UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF UTAH, CENTRAL DIVISION, Case # 2:04 CV 00772 DAK, April 9th 2007.
* J.M. Berger, "FBI Lab Took Nearly Three Years to Analyze Terry Nichols Bomb Cache." Intelwire, 03 February 2011.
* "Sister Ties McVeigh to Bank Robbery." The Tucson Citizen, 19 July 1995.

Some believe that one or more members of the ARA were FBI informants or cooperating witnesses, and that this is why the FBI failed to indict any of them for their roles in the attack.  The theory being, that if it were disclosed that the FBI had one or more informants within the bombing plot and failed to stop the bombing, the FBI could be held liable for the deaths of 168 people, opening themselves up to hundreds of wrongful death lawsuits.  A cover-up due to bureaucratic necessity and institutional incompetence.

One project that people might find informative:

This month (April 2020) my research archive of materials is going to be put online and available for anyone to access.

In this archive you'll find hundreds of documents: FBI 302 reports, ATF documents, affidavits, transcripts, etc.  Primary research materials.  In addition to this I have archived newspaper reports on this subject from April 19th, 1995 to the present day.  Over 1,000 news reports will be available for people to examine.

Many of these documents and news reports talk about McVeigh's accomplices. There are witnesses who spoke to McVeigh on the morning of April 19th, 1995 and he had a guy with him in the Ryder truck.  Those witnesses' 302 reports will be in this archive.

I'm working with Scott Horton at The Libertarian Institute to bring these materials to the public.  TLI is going to host these documents on their website. 

When the site goes live I'll post it here.  

My hope is that researchers, journalists, writers, will be able to make use of this archive to speed up any research effort by providing them with immediate access to case materials that took me years to compile. 

Many thanks go out to Roger G. Charles for donating much of the materials in the archive, and SLC attorney Jesse Trentadue. 

--Richard

Last night I was going through a large batch of FBI documents from 2005 when I came across something that was very unsettling, to say the least.

This batch of FBI documents from 2005 concerns Terry Nichols, who is currently imprisoned at the Colorado Supermax facility for his role in the attack.  In 2005, Nichols was scheduled to be interviewed by Congressman Dana Rohrabacher whose committee was investigating terrorism.

To facilitate this interview, FBI Denver had to coordinate things.  They controlled access to Nichols, set up the interviews, and so forth.

Among these 2005 documents there are some really interesting things.  I'll list a couple of them here.  One document says that Terry Nichols knows who 'John Doe #2' is, but that he fears for his life and the life of his family if he mentions the guy's name.  Several pages of these documents have Nichols talking about John Doe #2.  Nichols mentions that others were involved in the bombing who have not been identified or apprehended.  He also says at least one of these people was an informant.

For those who don't know, 'John Doe #2' was a man who was with Timothy McVeigh when the Ryder truck was rented on April 17th.  He was seen at Elliott's Body Shop by four witnesses, with Timothy McVeigh. He was also in the Ryder truck with Timothy McVeigh when they delivered the bomb on April 19th, spotted by over two dozen witnesses. Several sketches were made of this suspect, and he was never identified, or apprehended. 

To this day, John Doe #2's identity remains unknown. 

The FBI, publicly, claims that the man doesn't exist.  This explanation, of course, makes no sense when you consider what all of the witnesses saw, which was Timothy McVeigh with another person. Terry Nichols was in Kansas on April 19th---so who was this other guy who was with McVeigh?

Well, going back to the 2005 FBI documents I've been going through, something really stood out on one of the documents. 

This document says that "DTOU expressed concern regarding John Doe #2's name surfacing during the Congressman's interview."

DTOU is the FBI's Domestic Terrorism Operations Unit.  This is the part of the FBI that does operational work against domestic terrorism targets---sting operations, undercover operations, infiltration, that sort of thing.

Now, why the hell would FBI's DTOU be worried about John Doe #2's name surfacing?  Isn't their job to identify suspects, not to suppress or otherwise prevent the identification of suspects?  In what situation would DTOU want a suspect's name to be protected?

Think about this:  the FBI unit that is responsible for doing sting operations and undercover terrorism investigations was worried that John Doe #2's name might surface.  Why would this group be worried?  What possible reason would they have for wanting John Doe #2's name to continue to be unknown?

The only explanation is that John Doe #2 was either an undercover agent or an operational asset and if his name surfaced, it could be linked to DTOU and this would reveal FBI complicity in the bombing.

It's not too far fetched: look to the first World Trade Center bombing.  The FBI had operational assets within that bombing conspiracy, and in fact, those FBI informants actually recorded their conversations with their FBI handlers and this came out in the news, on the front page of the NY Times.  This was just a couple years before Oklahoma City.  And we've seen this thing continue, in recent years there have been several stories about how some idiot got caught up in an FBI sting operation whereby the FBI provided the 'suspect' with explosives, or fake explosives, and they gave the person material assistance to carry out a terrorist attack.  The suspect shows up to carry out the attack, and he gets busted for it.  There was a recent example of this in Oklahoma City where a mentally unhinged person was pulled into a plot to bomb a bank--and it was undercover FBI agents who were providing him with encouragement for the attack and material support.  There is another case just like that one in Michigan, were a seemingly deranged individual was given funding and assistance by the FBI, even providing the unemployed man with rides to and from Home Depot to pick up ingredients for pipe bombs.  So this is the kind of undercover thing that FBI counterterroism did in the 90s, and DTOU does today.

It is with this in mind that I think that in April of 1995, it seems the FBI must have had a similar undercover asset or informant in the Oklahoma City Bombing operation, and THAT would be why DTOU was 'concerned' about John Doe #2's name surfacing.

We must ask ourselves, WHY would the Domestic Terrorism Operations Unit be 'worried' or 'concerned' about a suspect being identified?  

Another thing: DTOU also wanted to direct the scope of the interview with Terry Nichols. They wanted the discussions to be exclusively about International Terrorism (IT) -- or a possible foreign connection to the bombing.  Which is to say, they didn't want possible domestic accomplices discussed.  

DTOU's position here is revealing.  They didn't want to hear any talk about domestic accomplices and they damn sure didn't want John Doe #2's name revealed.  We have to ask why.

--Richard

I've written an article on the OKC bombing surveillance tapes, this was published on Medium and curated in their "Politics" section:

Surveillance Recordings Show Oklahoma City Bombing
Documents, Testimony, Detail FBI Seized Footage
by Richard Booth | August 13th 2020
https://medium.com/@rboothokc/surveillan...cbd95fbe2c

It's been republished at The Libertarian Institute as well:
https://libertarianinstitute.org/article...deos-show/