Deep Politics Forum

ADDENDUM FROM JUDYTH ABOUT "KAN KUN":

PROBABLY WORTH PRINTING IN ITS ENTIRETY:

From: Judyth Vary Baker [elect63@xs4all.nl]
Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2003 7:57 PM
To: Deb Bert
Cc: Greg; Howpl@aol.com; Joe Riehl; Judyth Baker; Martin Shackelford
Subject: IMPORTANT: "fine'' hotel built in 1930 identified near KAN KUN : thank you, Deb Bert!

Deb Bert wrote Judyth Vary Baker [elect63@xs4all.nl]:
Sat 10/4/2003 7:57 PM

But--before development as a resort was undertaken, the area (of the present Cancun resort) was called "Kan Kun," "KanKun," and even "Cancun." A pleasant drive from Kankun/Cancun is the Hotel Mayaland. It's nothing short of stunning. At it is at the very gate of old Chichen Itza with the ancient observatory (which we could see from our window), El Castillo (incredible pyramid with an inner room that can be entered via a claustrophobic climb up some very dark and steep stairs. At the top, there stands El Tigre with jade eyes. Well worth the climb.), the Red House, the Cenote, the ball park...the whole nine yards. Probably the most interesting fact about this hotel, as it pertains to this discussion is that Hotel Mayaland was built in 1930 by the Barbachano family. It had been a destination for the wealthy for decades before it was "discovered."

JIM LOOKING FOR OSWALD AUTOPSY PHOTOGRAPHS:

NOTE: Judyth has asked me to add the following note, which
is highly relevant to my recently discovery that Lee's autopsy
photographs are being altered. I am looking for the full-body,
naked image taken from above and behind his left foot, which
I have somewhere in my records but cannot put my hands on.
If anyone has that photograph, please send it to me. Thanks!]

ALSO...below is a note that I (Judyth) would like posted:

An FBI legend would be created, after his death, that Lee was actually a homosexual, as his pubic area was ‘shaved.” What authorities didn’t mention is that Lee’s pubic area had been shaved by the Dallas police: Ref: Document F-85950, Supplementary Offense Report, 11/24/63: On 11/23/63 at 2:45 PM two detectives “went to the 5th floor jail and removed hair samples from the head, chest, arms, arm pits, legs and pubic area of Lee Harvey Oswald.” The shaving was done in the presence of FBI agent Hall, at his request."

=======================================

JIM HAS MORE QUESTIONS FOR JACK ABOUT ROBERT OSWALD:



In post #469 on page 32, Judyth made the following observations:

I knew that Lee was aware of and even wanted impersonations. We covered up our tracks very well and after Lee left Reily, I could never dare meet him outside there anymore.

Just trying to say, when you know the man, you know some things simply aren’t true.

Then it's easy to find what is true and present it.

Lee told me he even had a relative there. In New Orleans, two of his relatives were working for Reily when he was, and one worker describes a relative as smoking who was actually Lee, as Lee mentioned his male relative smoked.

People should notice that the boy is leaning back...the photo itself has been altered slightly around the nose ...as many other photos, as well...also, though this is supposed to be the Bronx Zoo, Robert Oswald has a fuzzy memory on a lot of stuff, and remember, Lee was visiting John Pic's home, not Robert's, in New York.

Robert has committed various errors and told lies as well, due to his affair with Marina shortly after Lee's death.

He 'found' the damning Imperial Reflex camera in the PAINE garage that had been so thoroughly searched...



Right after being caught with Marina....

Robert then moved into a nice new brick house that he could not have afforded before then.


Then catch what Robert has to say about his brother Lee as the assassin of JFK during a PBS "Frontline" interview:

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...swald.html)

Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him. There is no question in my mind that he also shot Officer Tippit. How can you explain one without the other? I think they're inseparable. I'm talking about the police officer being shot and the president. You look at the factual data, you look at the rifle, you look at the pistol ownership, you look at his note about the Walker shooting. You look at the general opportunity -- he was present. He wasn't present when they took a head count [at the Texas School Book Depository].

I watched the deterioration of a human being. You look at that last year -- his work, his family, trying to go to Cuba, trying to go back to Russia. His wife is wanting to go back to Russia. Everything is deteriorating.

You look at all the data there, and it comes up to one conclusion as far as I'm concerned -- the Warren Commission was correct.

JIM'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE ALLEGED "EXPERTS" ON LEE HARVEY OSWALD:

These observations suggest to me that Robert was a key player in framing Lee. This is quite outrageous. You guys are
supposed to be the "experts" on Lee Harvey Oswald and I have to learn about Robert having what appears to be motive,
means, and opportunity to frame him from Judyth? And you guys have the nerve to challenge her background and her
competence and her qualifications? The situation here is entirely outrageous. This woman appears to me to be doing
more to solve the case in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald than you and John Armstrong and David S. Lifton put together.

[quote name='Jack White' post='187962' date='Mar 27 2010, 04:04 AM']Lee and Robert were almost as interchangeable as twins.

Jack[/quote]

I have not evaded anything. I have been busy with
doctor and dental appointments and mowing my grass.
I spend little time on the computer now that the weather
is nice. The long ALL CAPS and abusive ramblings of JVB
are very difficult to wade thru, and I seldom read them
carefully because they are repetitive and predictable.

To learn John Armstrong's methodology, read the book.
He footnotes extensively and tells about every source.
If you can find a questionable documentation, please
let us know about it.

He depended VERY LARGELY on interviews of people
who knew the Oswald family. He and Robert Groden
videotaped many of these interviews. He specifically
quotes interviews as sources. Interviews cannot be faked.
If there are fake documents, the WC was taken in by them
because most assassination documents he uses were also
used by the WC. There is no way other public record
documents can be faked, because he made extensive use
of city directories, phone books, court records, real estate
transactions, etc...none of which can be fabricated because
they pre-existed 1963. Fabrication of a telephone book
that was a print run of 200,000 is obviously impossible.

I am not aware of anything I have purposely evaded
if I know the answer. Please rephrase (brief one sentence
questions) any thing you want me to answer. I may have
missed them in the mass of ALL CAPS TYPING used by
JVB. The reason the previous posting seemed a combination
of writing by you and JVB was the ALL CAPS TYPING that
is her trademark. Some of the remarks seemed to be hers.

I do not understand your questioning of the authenticity of
certain publicly published photos. The funeral photo of
Marina, Robert and Marguerite, for instance, was taken and
published by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram the next day.
There was no reason for the newspaper or anyone else
to "fake" it, yet you question whether it is authentic.

As for his uncle Murret tying LHO to the mafia, that is
undocumented and undocumentable. LHO's association with
Uncle Dutz was under the age of 5 and around the age of 14.
It is most dubious that these childhood associations with
a relative would have made either LHO a mafioso.

I am growing very tired of unwarranted accusations about
me, my intelligence, my motives and my research.

I have nothing but pity for this poor quixotic person who has
abandoned a potentially productive life for a person of her
obvious intelligence in order to promote her illicit affair with
a married man.

Jack

OK. In my opinion, you are misrepresenting my views
as well as those of Judyth. Let's stick with mine. Using a
free call service does not require that Lee himself had to
be a mafiosi. I am taken aback you suggest that. I am not
challenging the authenticity of the public funeral photo of
Marguerite. I am asking about the provenance of those of
the second, taller "Marguerite", and observing that my own
father's second wife was also named "Marguerite". So how
do we know the provenance of her photos? Judyth is going
to say more about this, Jack. I have not been insulting your
intelligence and I trust you are not going to insult mine. I
am stunned that none of you--John Armstrong, David Lifton,
or you--appears to have taken a serious interest in Robert,
who appears to me--given what I am learning from Judyth
rather than any of your--a rather obvious role in framing his
brother. So I would appreciate it if you would now respond
to the post I (Jim, not Judyth) have just made here (#322).

Jack White Wrote:I have not evaded anything. I have been busy with
doctor and dental appointments and mowing my grass.
I spend little time on the computer now that the weather
is nice. The long ALL CAPS and abusive ramblings of JVB
are very difficult to wade thru, and I seldom read them
carefully because they are repetitive and predictable.

To learn John Armstrong's methodology, read the book.
He footnotes extensively and tells about every source.
If you can find a questionable documentation, please
let us know about it.

He depended VERY LARGELY on interviews of people
who knew the Oswald family. He and Robert Groden
videotaped many of these interviews. He specifically
quotes interviews as sources. Interviews cannot be faked.
If there are fake documents, the WC was taken in by them
because most assassination documents he uses were also
used by the WC. There is no way other public record
documents can be faked, because he made extensive use
of city directories, phone books, court records, real estate
transactions, etc...none of which can be fabricated because
they pre-existed 1963. Fabrication of a telephone book
that was a print run of 200,000 is obviously impossible.

I am not aware of anything I have purposely evaded
if I know the answer. Please rephrase (brief one sentence
questions) any thing you want me to answer. I may have
missed them in the mass of ALL CAPS TYPING used by
JVB. The reason the previous posting seemed a combination
of writing by you and JVB was the ALL CAPS TYPING that
is her trademark. Some of the remarks seemed to be hers.

I do not understand your questioning of the authenticity of
certain publicly published photos. The funeral photo of
Marina, Robert and Marguerite, for instance, was taken and
published by the Fort Worth Star-Telegram the next day.
There was no reason for the newspaper or anyone else
to "fake" it, yet you question whether it is authentic.

As for his uncle Murret tying LHO to the mafia, that is
undocumented and undocumentable. LHO's association with
Uncle Dutz was under the age of 5 and around the age of 14.
It is most dubious that these childhood associations with
a relative would have made either LHO a mafioso.

I am growing very tired of unwarranted accusations about
me, my intelligence, my motives and my research.

I have nothing but pity for this poor quixotic person who has
abandoned a potentially productive life for a person of her
obvious intelligence in order to promote her illicit affair with
a married man.

Jack

Jack,

OK. Let's see if we can sort some of it out together. By "you guys", I am
referring to you, John Armstrong, and David Lifton, whom I have taken
to be the leading experts on Lee Harvey Oswald. I know that John and
you believe there were two, one "Lee", the other "Harvey", and that the
one Judyth knew in New Orleans was the one to whom you refer to as
"Harvey". According to Dawn Mededith, the one you call "Lee" (not the
one whom Judyth knew) was short-tempered, non-intellectual and could
not speak Russian, while the one you call "Harvey" was mild-mannered,
intellectual and fluent in Russian. You say the one called "Harvey" was
born in Hungary and liked the name "Harvey", while Judyth's says that
he was born in Louisiana, had a slight Cajun accent, and hated the name
"Harvey". So we know that at least some of this has to be wrong. OK?

I do not know if Lifton believes there were "two Oswalds", but I rather
suspect he does not. So what we know about "Oswald" is very obscure.
Now, in this new post you say that you have been suggesting for years
that Robert was involved in framing "Harvey", the man Judyth knew in
New Orleans as "Lee", who, according to you, was not his brother, even
though they looked enough alike that they were virtually "dead ringers"
for one another. In addition, in a recent post, you make this observation:

Today, 05:23 PM
Post #674

Super Member
****
Group: Members
Posts: 7127
Joined: 26-April 04
Member No.: 667

Robert Oswald, of course, knew that Harvey was not his brother, and to this
day he "cooperates" with the perpetrators, as does Marina...for safety reasons.

Robert, Marina and Ruth Paine are the only remaining living persons who
knew both Harvey and Lee. If they were to tell what they know, the case
would be solved.

Robert likely was an unwitting participant. Because both he and Lee were
Marines, and they looked very much alike, the military had photos and
records of both to use in creating confusion in the official record. I am
fairly certain that photos of Robert were in some cases used to portray
Lee. Of course Robert was ASTOUNDED when the assassination happened
and Harvey was named the assassin. What he had assumed was a rather
benign assignment of Lee took a very terrible turn. Read his testimony for
his reaction to the event.

Jack

So here are my questions:

(1) The man who died, according to you, was "Harvey", whom Judyth
knew as "Lee" and who was shot to death by Jack Ruby on 24 November.

(2) Although Robert was the brother of the one you call "Lee" and not of
the one Judyth knew and Ruby shot, they were "dead ringers" of each other.

(3) According to your latest, #678, you have always insisted that Robert
was involved in framing the man that Judyth knew and that Ruby shot.

(4) In your earlier, #674, however, you state (a) that Robert likely was an
unwitting participant and (B) was astounded when "Harvey" was fingered.

(5) Now, if Robert was helping to frame "Harvey", how could he possibly
have been astounded when "Harvey" was blamed for the the assassination?

(6) Reading his testimony for his reaction to the event sounds like a waste
of time when we know that (a) he "found" the Imperial Reflex camera no one
had been able to locate in the Paine's garage; (B) he had an affair with Marina
following her husband's death; and, © he move into a nice, new brick home,
which he previously could not have afforded. What speaks louder to you?

(7) Moreover, Judyth has shown that, when you correct for distortion, the
images of "Lee" and of "Harvey" tend to converge, which suggests to me
that, while there may have been "two Oswalds", they are not adequately
identified as "Harvey & Lee" but instead more plausibly as "Robert & Lee":



So my question for you, my friend, is how can you reconcile what I have
just presented, especially your claims (i) that Robert was involved in the
framing of "Harvey" and (ii) that he was an unwitting participant who was
"astounded" when "Harvey" was fingered as the assassin? I don't get it.

It is plausible to me that Robert was impersonating Lee on some occasions.
And I hope you are not going to suggest that Robert "found" the Imperial
Reflex camera, had an affair with Marina, and purchased a new brick home
because he had to "play along" with the perpetrators "for safety reasons"!

Jim

[quote name='Jack White' post='188002' date='Mar 27 2010, 08:36 PM']
Who are the YOU GUYS you refer to?

What are your questions?

I have always said that Robert Oswald participated in the framing of Harvey.
Harvey was not his brother, so he cooperated in framing him. Now what is
your question about this opinion? Are you saying I am wrong about Robert?
I have long said that some photos of "Lee" are really of Robert. Are you
disputing this? Your questions are not clear.

It is clear to me that Robert helped frame "LHO". I have said this for about
thirty years. Are you disputing this? I do not understand your accusation.

Jack

[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='187998' date='Mar 27 2010, 05:53 PM']
JIM HAS MORE QUESTIONS FOR JACK ABOUT ROBERT OSWALD:



In post #469 on page 32, Judyth made the following observations:

I knew that Lee was aware of and even wanted impersonations. We covered up our tracks very well and after Lee left Reily, I could never dare meet him outside there anymore.

Just trying to say, when you know the man, you know some things simply aren’t true.

Then it's easy to find what is true and present it.

Lee told me he even had a relative there. In New Orleans, two of his relatives were working for Reily when he was, and one worker describes a relative as smoking who was actually Lee, as Lee mentioned his male relative smoked.

People should notice that the boy is leaning back...the photo itself has been altered slightly around the nose ...as many other photos, as well...also, though this is supposed to be the Bronx Zoo, Robert Oswald has a fuzzy memory on a lot of stuff, and remember, Lee was visiting John Pic's home, not Robert's, in New York.

Robert has committed various errors and told lies as well, due to his affair with Marina shortly after Lee's death.

He 'found' the damning Imperial Reflex camera in the PAINE garage that had been so thoroughly searched...



Right after being caught with Marina....

Robert then moved into a nice new brick house that he could not have afforded before then.


Then catch what Robert has to say about his brother Lee as the assassin of JFK during a PBS "Frontline" interview:

(http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...ews/oswald.html)

Robert Oswald:

In your mind, are there questions about whether Lee shot President Kennedy?

There is no question in my mind that Lee was responsible for the three shots fired, two of the shots hitting the president and killing him. There is no question in my mind that he also shot Officer Tippit. How can you explain one without the other? I think they're inseparable. I'm talking about the police officer being shot and the president. You look at the factual data, you look at the rifle, you look at the pistol ownership, you look at his note about the Walker shooting. You look at the general opportunity -- he was present. He wasn't present when they took a head count [at the Texas School Book Depository].

I watched the deterioration of a human being. You look at that last year -- his work, his family, trying to go to Cuba, trying to go back to Russia. His wife is wanting to go back to Russia. Everything is deteriorating.

You look at all the data there, and it comes up to one conclusion as far as I'm concerned -- the Warren Commission was correct.

JIM'S COMMENTS ABOUT THE ALLEGED "EXPERTS" ON LEE HARVEY OSWALD:

These observations suggest to me that Robert was a key player in framing Lee. This is quite outrageous. You guys are supposed to be the "experts" on Lee Harvey Oswald and I have to learn about Robert having what appears to be motive, means, and opportunity to frame him from Judyth? And you guys have the nerve to challenge her background and her competence and her qualifications? The situation here is entirely outrageous. This woman appears to me to be doing more to solve the case in relation to Lee Harvey Oswald than you and John Armstrong and David S. Lifton put together.

[quote name='Jack White' post='187962' date='Mar 27 2010, 04:04 AM']Lee and Robert were almost as interchangeable as twins.

Jack[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]

Why are you suggesting that I have never taken an interest in Robert
Oswald? I have always CONSIDERED HIM A KEY PLAYER. You suggest
that I have not. That is an unfair misconception.

I say that he was aware of the false defector program which his
mother had enrolled his brother into. He was aware of the training
from age 13 of an impersonator for his brother and also his mother.
As far as he knew, this was a patriotic venture of simply lending
the LHO identity to the government to infiltrate a Russian speaking
spy into the Soviet Union. NOTHING ELSE. Marguerite needed the
money, and lending her son's identity to the government likely
paid a nice monthly stipend...and it was patriotic to help the cold
war effort. NEITHER ROBERT NOR MARGUERITE DREAMED THAT IT
WOULD RESULT IN THE FALSE LHO BEING FRAMED FOR MURDER!

To say that I have never studied Robert Oswald is a misrepresentation
and unfair slur unworthy of you.

Jack

Jack

Fascinating revelation re Robert and stunning photo comparison at #326
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...tcount=326

OK, Jack. I take it back and assert the opposite. You have ALWAYS
taken a keen interest in Robert Oswald (who was a dead ringer for
"Harvey" but not his biological brother) and believe he was both (a)
surprised when Lee was fingered for the assassination but (b) also
involved in framing him by "finding" the Imperial Reflex camera in
the Paine's garage. Along the way, this fine family man also took
Marina to bed and purchase a brick home he could not previously
have afforded. Now take a little time and tell me how you fit all of
these pieces together, because it seems to me that no one would
have made a better choice for impersonations of "Harvey" than he.

P.S. The so-called "hunting photo" of Lee looks completely bogus.

Jack White Wrote:Why are you suggesting that I have never taken an interest in Robert
Oswald? I have always CONSIDERED HIM A KEY PLAYER. You suggest
that I have not. That is an unfair misconception.

I say that he was aware of the false defector program which his
mother had enrolled his brother into. He was aware of the training
from age 13 of an impersonator for his brother and also his mother.
As far as he knew, this was a patriotic venture of simply lending
the LHO identity to the government to infiltrate a Russian speaking
spy into the Soviet Union. NOTHING ELSE. Marguerite needed the
money, and lending her son's identity to the government likely
paid a nice monthly stipend...and it was patriotic to help the cold
war effort. NEITHER ROBERT NOR MARGUERITE DREAMED THAT IT
WOULD RESULT IN THE FALSE LHO BEING FRAMED FOR MURDER!

To say that I have never studied Robert Oswald is a misrepresentation
and unfair slur unworthy of you.

Jack

OK, Jack. I take it back and assert the opposite. You have ALWAYS
taken a keen interest in Robert Oswald (who was a dead ringer for
"Harvey" but not his biological brother)

Jim...you keep misquoting me on this. You have it BACKWARDS.
Robert, as I have shown, was a "dead ringer" for his biological
brother Lee, NOT HARVEY.

and believe he was both (a)
surprised when Lee was fingered for the assassination

YES, read his testimony to the WC.

but (b) also
involved in framing him by "finding" the Imperial Reflex camera in
the Paine's garage.

I think the Secret Service put him up to this. And I don't
think you have the story quite right. I would have to check
the finding of the camera story again.


Along the way, this fine family man also took
Marina to bed

There is no documentation for this gossip. I think some researcher
speculated this and it got repeated as fact. I have never seen anything
to substantiate it.

and purchase a brick home he could not previously
have afforded.

On what facts do you speculate this? The man worked many years
as a salesman for Acme Brick Company and you say he could not
afford a brick house?

Now take a little time and tell me how you fit all of
these pieces together, because it seems to me that no one would
have made a better choice for impersonations of "Harvey" than he.

Robert was a family man who worked at a full time job. He had
no known association with any of the plotters. He was aware of
the false defector scenario and knew BOTH Lee and Harvey,
but was not involved in the murder plot in any way.


P.S. The so-called "hunting photo" of Lee looks completely bogus.

There are NUMEROUS BOGUS PHOTOS in the JFK case, especially
related to Oswald. It is hard to tell which are genuine and which
are not. The hunting photo for sure does not depict Harvey. But
it also does not look much like Lee.

A comment on JVB frequent non sequiturs:

She went into great detail that the man she knew did not
speak Hungarian. I know of NOBODY who claims that he
did. Armstrong discovered a Hungarian couple from behind the
Iron Curtain who may have been refugees imported by the
CIA after WWII. They lived in New York. People from behind
the Iron Curtain for a long time spoke RUSSIAN. This couple
had a male child. He grew up learning both ENGLISH and
RUSSIAN. He spoke English with a "New York" accent. He
never spoke Hungarian. But nobody, including Armstrong,
has said that Harvey spoke Hungarian. That he spoke RUSSIAN
was the reason his ANTI-COMMUNIST parents volunteered him
for the false defector program. It is a non issue that Harvey
did not speak Hungarian.

Jack