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Hello All

It has been quite some time since I posted on this very interesting thread. I have read Harvey and Lee three times. It is a book that deserves multiple readings. I have a few questions, about which, knowledgeable contributors may respond in order to clear some confusion, on my part.

First: According to the Harvey and Lee timeline provided back at post #107, Harvey starts Marine boot camp at San Diego on 12/17/56, then Harvey starts Marine ITR at Camp Pendleton in Feb. 1957, then Harvey leaves Marine Corp active duty on 8/22/57, then Harvey starts work at Pfisterer's Dental Lab in New Orleans, lives at Hotel Senator 11/20/57. Is leaving active Marine Corp duty an unusual move? It certainly permitted Harvey to return to civilian type employment. Perhaps this was all part of the way he was being "handled".

Second: Robert Oswald's mother is the taller attractive Marquerite. Am I correct on that? And Harvey is not Robert's real brother? Right? If so, then Robert Oswald puts on quite a show, such as mourning at the grave site of Harvey during the committal service. John Pic was able to recognize Harvey as not being his half brother. Did Robert confuse Harvey with Lee? Certainly he could not confuse his real mother with the short rotund Marguerite? Or was Robert compromised? Just a thought.

Third: Was the short dumpy Marguerite the actual mother of Harvey?
The "short dumpy" Marguerite is the mother of brothers Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Pic. The other Marguerite is alleged by John Armstrong to be the mother of his alternate "LEE Oswald."

John Pic accurately identifies Lee Harvey Oswald from the pictures John Armstrong calls "HARVEY," but doesn't claim that the pictures of the person John Armstrong calls "LEE" are pictures of his brother.

The brothers John Pic and Robert do not seem to part of any plot. John Pic had a different father than Robert Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Drew Phipps Wrote:The "short dumpy" Marguerite is the mother of brothers Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Pic. The other Marguerite is alleged by John Armstrong to be the mother of his alternate "LEE Oswald."

John Pic accurately identifies Lee Harvey Oswald from the pictures John Armstrong calls "HARVEY," but doesn't claim that the pictures of the person John Armstrong calls "LEE" are pictures of his brother.

The brothers John Pic and Robert do not seem to part of any plot.

This post is a bit mixed up with it's offer of facts....

Starting at the end, while John may or may not be involved, Robert was most assuredly involved. Between the Bronx zoo photo up to the finding of the grey camera and other evidence in Robert's possession we really cannot discount how much Robert looked like Harvey (but not as much like LEE)

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6900&stc=1]






Quote:John Pic accurately identifies Lee Harvey Oswald from the pictures John Armstrong calls "HARVEY," but doesn't claim that the pictures of the person John Armstrong calls "LEE" are pictures of his brother.

First off the identifications are not JOHN's, they are question asked of Pic by the WC while being shown pictures published in LIFE magazine and John most definitely picks out his brother from Harvey:

Mr. JENNER - The next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. There is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. Do you recognize that picture?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize that as Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER - Then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. Do you recognize either of those young people?
Mr. PIC - Yes; I recognize Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. JENNER - Did you have the impression when you saw him on Thanksgiving of 1962 that in the meantime he had become embittered, resentful of his station?
Mr. PIC - Well, sir; the Lee Harvey Oswald I met in November of 1962 was not the Lee Harvey Oswald I had known 10 years previous.


Quote:The "short dumpy" Marguerite is the mother of brothers Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Pic. The other Marguerite is alleged by John Armstrong to be the mother of his alternate "LEE Oswald."

The TALL MARGUERITE is the mother of all three boys including LEE. the SHORT MO's identity is unknown yet has been speculated upon. The man RUBY killed was NOT related to Lee Oswald - whether he was related to his caretaker is unknown. According to what we've learned, the boy/man playing HARVEY was not American, English was his second language, and he spoke Russian with a distinctly Soviet accent. Little Harvey also NEVER spoke with a southern accent but a north eastern NY type accent while LEE was known to have sported the southern accent based on those who knew him.

Another Beauregard classmate who knew Harvey Oswald was EdCollier who recalled, "We called him Yank because he had a Yankeeaccent."9 !t is now easy to see that Ed Collier knew Harvey Oswald, from New York, in the 8thgrade at Beauregard in the spring of 1954. Lee Oswald, who was born in New Orleans and raisedin Fort Worth, had a southern accent.


Edward J. Pic and Marguerite Claverie were married in Harrison County, Mississippi on August 8, 1929. During their first year of marriage the couple rented a house on Genois Street, south of Canal Street, and in the spring of 1931 Marguerite became pregnant.

Six months after Marguerite and Eddie Pic were separated she gave birth to her first child, John Edward Pic, on January 17, 1932. When John Pic was baptized two weeks later, on January 31, his sponsors were Charles and Lillian Murret Marguerite Oswald's sister and her husband).6 John Pic's father, Edward J. Pic, provided child support for his son in the amount of $40 per month until John turned 18, in January 1950.7 The short, dumpy, heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" imposter who testified before the Warren Commission said that Pic had given her only $18 per month, which was not true. This woman also told the Commission, "He left me after I had my first born," which was also not true. John
Pic and the real Marguerite Oswald were separated six months before she gave birth, but the woman who testified before the WarrenCommission did not know that.

The SHORT MARGIE's identity is not officially known yet John and I have talked about it being

Margaret Keating Oswald was the first wife of Robert E. L. Oswald (father of Robert and Lee Harvey Oswald), whom she divorced in 1933. The court restored her last name to Keating, her maiden name, which she kept for the remainder of her life (she apparently never remarried). The name Margaret Keating and her address, 120 N. Telemachus Street, appear in New Orleans City Directories, telephone books, voter registration records, etc., from 1933 thru the early 1960's.
In the 1956 New Orleans City Directory, which records listings for the last half of 1955, the directory listed her as "Margt. Oswald," 120 N. Telemachus Street, New Orleans. 55-21 This is the only occasion where the name "Margaret Keating" appears as Margt. Oswald-a name she had not used for the past 23 years. Perhaps this was a mistake, but perhaps not. These two listings appear during the time that both the short, dumpy heavy-set "Marguerite Oswald" imposter (whose troe identity remains unknown) and the tall, nice-looking Marguerite Oswald lived in New Orleans

NOTE: Margaret Keating, who was 58 years old in 1954 and 67 years old in 1963,
could have been the "Marguerite Oswald" imposter, but that possibility will not be explored
or discussed in this book. For serious researchers, a telephone number and address
were listed for Margaret Keating as late as 1996 in Baton Rogue (she was 100 in 1996).

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6899&stc=1]
Hi,

I've run the Harvey and Lee website since the late 1990s and I'm intimately familiar with the work of John Armstrong. Before trying to answer all the questions Brian asked above, I'd like to correct a few things that Drew wrote.

John believes "short dumpy" Marguerite was an impostor who testified at the WC hearings. She was not the true mother of anyone appearing at the hearings. She did act as the "mother" (really the caretaker) of "Harvey Oswald," the Russian-speaking youth who shared the identity of the the American-born Lee Harvey Oswald.

At the WC hearings, John Pic identified pictures of his true half brother, American born Lee Oswald but told the WC he did NOT recognize pictures of the youth John Armstrong calls "Harvey Oswald." Harvey was the Russian-speaking kid ultimately killed by Jack Ruby. Harvey may have been an Eastern European World War II orphan brought to the United States at a young age.

John believes Robert Oswald was knowledgeable about the intelligence project and in fact, during brief periods, lived with both Harvey and Lee Oswald. John Pic is more difficult to read. The Warren Commission should have asked many more questions when Mr. Pic said he did not recognize pictures of Harvey Oswald. John tried to interview Mr. Pic, but was told, something like, "I said everything I had to say during my testimony."
You can just take the "facts" that I presented above as the public testimony under oath of the persons involved. You can choose to believe John's conclusions, and work backwards from there, assuming that everyone is lying through their teeth, but that's what the people involved said when they were given the chance.
Drew Phipps Wrote:You can just take the "facts" that I presented above as the public testimony under oath of the persons involved. You can choose to believe John's conclusions, and work backwards from there, assuming that everyone is lying through their teeth, but that's what the people involved said when they were given the chance.

Drew... you are mistaken.

The "facts" you presented were bass-ackwards and I showed you why.

If you can support what you posted as facts with links or evidence please do so... I took the time to show you what they actually said and what H&L actually says... not my interpretation of it or what you think John thinks...

Present the sources and the evidence if you disagree... but don't shove these "facts" down our throats as if they were researched and supported if you are not going to offer any corroboration...

and then get all bothered when it is pointed out to you...

Believing the conclusions John assembled from the evidence he found is pretty straightforward... the MO the WC questioned was NOT these boys' mother, nor was she ever married to Pic or Oswald... and her testimony repeatedly gives her away. The last time we have Oswald with his real mother was when they left for NYC. When they come back to the south via North Dakota, the switch had been made.
Albert Doyle Wrote:^ I seriously suggest you take another look at the twin arrival claim. Your criticism of it is very cursory and doesn't reflect how strong a case Lifton has or nearly answer all the questions involved. There was an X-Ray technician who was carrying Kennedy's X-Rays up the stairs at Bethesda who looked out the window and saw the second ambulance pulling up to the front entrance for the second arrival. Don't forget the different coffins and body wrappings, and don't forget the visible surgery to the head that was noticed at the start of the official autopsy. Where did that come from and when was it done? And don't forget the new Air Force 1 tapes that also show coordination of a helicopter lift. By the same measure, I agree Lifton has serious issues as shown in your list, however I think he has discovered something very important with the twin arrivals.



.

It is not cursory at all. That is your spin.

There are no signatures, and the guy when interviewed did not even know if it was JFK's casket. Which is unbelievable. Plus there is the near impossible time/speed factor.

You want to bring in all this other paraphernalia which was already dealt with by Roger Feinman in his fine monograph The Signal and the Noise. Which is still the best and most devastating critique of Best Evidence ever.

If you want to debate BE fine, open up a new thread. Just count me out.

I have been exposed to Lifton at length for decades. Both at EF, and at various conferences, which he does not attend anymore nor is he invited to do so.

If you want to enlist in those ten points, go ahead and be my guest. Its all yours.
Drew Phipps Wrote:The "short dumpy" Marguerite is the mother of brothers Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John Pic.

OK, Drew, now that I understand your point-of-view here....

Yes, the woman who gave the WC testimony said she was the mother of Robert, LHO, and John Pic (with a different father for Pic). But at various points in her testimony (you can tell even from the print transcript) she was obviously reading from a script. It is also incredible how many simple errors about her so-called family she made so many times in her "career" as a fake mommy, even when she was quite a bit younger and should have had a better memory. For example (from JA's 1997 Dallas speech):

While Oswald was in the Youth House, his [fake] mother met with Probation
Officer John Carro. Marguerite told Carro she was the youngest of 6
children, yet there were 5 children in the Claverie family. She gave Lee
Oswald's father's name as Robert Lee Harvey, when his real name was
Robert Edward Lee Oswald. She said Lee's father died at age 45, yet we
know he was 41 years old when he died. She gave her marriage date as July
19, 1929, yet she married Robert Oswald in 1933. She gave her sister's
name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian
Murrett. She said she formerly owned a house in Corning, Texas yet there
is not and never has been a "Corning," Texas. She gave Lee Harvey
Oswald's birth date as October 19 when the correct date was October 18th.
She said Lee was baptized at the Trinity Lutheran Church in New Orleans,
when the records show he was baptized at the Redeemer Lutheran Church in
New Orleans. When she was asked whether Lee's father was right or left
handed she replied "I do not remember, sir" (Warren Commission
testimony). There is no reason for a 45 year old woman to make these kind
of errors concerning her background. Had she forgotten, was she lying, or
was this person truly Lee's mother?

Quote:The other Marguerite is alleged by John Armstrong to be the mother of his alternate "LEE Oswald."

Yes, John believes the real Marguerite Oswald was the mother of the American-born Lee Harvey Oswald.

Quote:John Pic accurately identifies Lee Harvey Oswald from the pictures John Armstrong calls "HARVEY," but doesn't claim that the pictures of the person John Armstrong calls "LEE" are pictures of his brother.

No, that's backwards. John Pic accurately identified pictures John's research shows were of the real, American-born Lee Harvey Oswald, Pic's actual half-brother. Pic swore he failed to recognize photographs of "Harvey Oswald," the boy John believes was a Russian-speaking European orphan brought to the United States and eventually killed by Jack Ruby. This person had no blood relation whatsoever to John Pic.

Quote: The brothers John Pic and Robert do not seem to part of any plot.

Robert clearly knew about the mixed identities of Harvey and Lee. Both persons lived with him briefly at times. I very much doubt he had any foreknowledge of the assassination plot.

Quote:John Pic had a different father than Robert Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald.

Agreed.
Comparing Marguerites:

Here are some digital comparisons between the lady that Jim says John A believes is the "Marguerite imposter."

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6901&stc=1]


and this one:

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6903&stc=1]

Using pixel measurements to compare the proportions (ratios) of facial measurements, we get for the "top Marguerite":

Between pupils: 45 pixels
Nose length from top to bottom: 41 pixels Ratio: 45/41 = 1.098
Distance from bottom of nose to top of lip: 14 pixels Ratio: 45/14 = 3.214




And the bottom Marguerite

Between pupils: 54 pixels
Nose length from top to bottom: 44 pixels Ratio: 54/44 = 1.227
Distance from bottom of nose to top of lip: 15 pixels Ratio: 54/15 = 3.600


Ratio difference 1.098/1.227 = 89%
3.214/3.600 = 89%

Clearly these do not belong to the same individual. The "top Marguerite"'s eyes are set much closer together in proportion to the rest of her face. John's "imposter" does not match my informal biometric comparisons with the "famous" Marguerite.


Control Comparison

Now lets compare the bottom Marguerite with another picture of the same person as a "control" for this pixel ration comparison.

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6904&stc=1]




New measurements:

Second bottom Marguerite

Between pupils: 51 pixels
Nose length from top to bottom: 42 pixels Ratio: 51/42 = 1.214
Distance from bottom of nose to top of lip: 14 pixels Ratio: 51/14 = 3.624

Again the "bottom Marguerite"

Between pupils: 54 pixels
Nose length from top to bottom: 44 pixels Ratio: 54/44 = 1.227
Distance from bottom of nose to top of lip: 15 pixels Ratio: 54/15 = 3.600

Ratio Difference (for control purposes) 1.214/1.227 = 99%
3.624/3.600 = 101%

so it would seem that pixel counting proportions is accurate within +- 1%


Now lets do the same test with height:

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6905&stc=1]


She's wearing heels, so my best measurement is

Between pupils 45 pixels
Eyes to toes 1,182 pixels
Ratio: 1182/45 = 26.27


And this one:

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6902&stc=1]


Her feet aren't visible, so my best estimate:

Between pupils 12 pixels
Eyes to toes 216 pixels
Ratio: 216/12 = 18

The real Marguerite is much shorter than the woman Jim says John thinks is the "imposter Marguerite"that testified. The "top Marguerite," if she was in that picture with Salandria, would tower over Salandria.


The Final Comparison:


Here's the woman John A. says is LEE's mother from "Harvey and Lee"

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=6906&stc=1]

Doing the facial ratios again:

Between pupils: 39 pixels
Nose length top to bottom: 33 pixels
Bottom of nose to top of lip 10 pixels

Ratios: 39/33 = 1.18
39/10 = 3.90


Comparing ratios: 1.18/1.214 = 97%
With Bottom Marguerite 3.9/3.624 = 108%

Not as good as our previous comparison, but there might be a fair bit more time between photos that we have used for comparison in the last comparison.


It is by far and away more likely that the "Marguerite Oswald" that John A. insists is "LEE's mother" is in fact the same lady, (though she didn't age very gracefully), as the "Marguerite Oswald" that testified; than it is that she is this other woman (Keating) that John has pictures of. John apparently thinks that "LEE" and "HARVEY" don't have the same mother, yet (in at least my informal and amateur biometrics) the same woman John says is LEE's mother is in fact the Marguerite that testified.

The way I read "Harvey and Lee," that fact is fatal to John's hypothesis. "LEE's mother" (according to John A) = the famous Marguerite, who claims to be the mother of "HARVEY" Oswald, who was killed by Jack Ruby.

Which do you seriously and honestly suppose is more likely, that the entire Oswald family committed perjury and is engaged in covering up a CIA identical twin intelligence operation, or that Robert and John Pic are/were simply tired of dealing with JFK conspiracy theorists (of which their own mother was the first)?