Dawn Meredith Wrote:They clearly did not know the can of worms they were opening up. "Harvey" being in Russia during the NY encounters....Just speculation here but I think everyone was in such shock that day and anyone who had had personal contact - especially of a negative kind- with someone calling him self Lee Oswald would probably call someone in authority and report it.
Dawn
Which fact
should, if you're being rational about it, make you skeptical about Oswald sightings. Same as you might be about Elvis sightings, or Buddy Holly sightings, or Jerry Garcia sightings...
Why on earth would your highly placed, devious, and conniving architects of this double Oswald deception
deliberately go out of their way to set up "Oswald sightings" in the USA, when it is clearly a matter of public knowledge that Oswald defected and was in Russia, thereby ruining the plausibility of whatever story "they" are attempting to mastermind?
It would be like Dick Cheney ordering Mohammed Atta to make collect calls from Paris on 9/12/01.
You must conclude then that either a) the Russia-era doubles-sighting witnesses are mistaken, or b) these reports pertain to another dude named Oswald, or c) the plotters themselves are bumbling idiots, and "they" have no idea that Oswald is in Russia, d) or the actors "they" hired to play the parts went dangerously astray from the script, or e) some combination of the above.
Drew Phipps Wrote:Why on earth would your highly placed, devious, and conniving architects of this double Oswald deception deliberately go out of their way to set up "Oswald sightings" in the USA, when it is clearly a matter of public knowledge that Oswald defected and was in Russia, thereby ruining the plausibility of whatever story "they" are attempting to mastermind?
To get double their money's worth on sheep-dipping Oswald as a nut. The target wasn't the public. The target was persons or groups of interest and political targets that wouldn't know which side it was coming from. This was a cutting-edge intel program seeking maximum effect. Oswald was then switched to patsy in a presidential assassination.
Albert Doyle Wrote:Drew Phipps Wrote:Why on earth would your highly placed, devious, and conniving architects of this double Oswald deception deliberately go out of their way to set up "Oswald sightings" in the USA, when it is clearly a matter of public knowledge that Oswald defected and was in Russia, thereby ruining the plausibility of whatever story "they" are attempting to mastermind?
To get double their money's worth on sheep-dipping Oswald as a nut. The target wasn't the public. The target was persons or groups of interest and political targets that wouldn't know which side it was coming from. This was a cutting-edge intel program seeking maximum effect. Oswald was then switched to patsy in a presidential assassination.
We also tend to view such "why on earth" questions through modern filters. No one involved in the conspiracy had any reason to believe that information would be as readily available as it is today. They controlled the story (Mauser simply shifts to Carcano, no muss no fuss) and believed that their control would continue.
Michael Cross Wrote:We also tend to view such "why on earth" questions through modern filters. No one involved in the conspiracy had any reason to believe that information would be as readily available as it is today. They controlled the story (Mauser simply shifts to Carcano, no muss no fuss) and believed that their control would continue.
There's a whole kaleidoscope of potential intel possibilities in running an Oswald double while Harvey was in Russia. You have to remember what the purpose of psychological warfare was. It was intended to mess with the minds of the enemy. Who was spooking whom and which double was working for whom was a gambit that could be played to unlimited possibilities by the 3D chess players at Langley. To more primitive minds this is simply "gibberish". To more sophisticated researchers it is the fingerprint and modus operandi of Intel coming into view. More honest researchers seeking the truth would see both Landesberg and Oswald had dopplegangers being used for spook purposes. They would admit FBI got caught trying to deliberately avoid any real investigation of them. ALL the references given by Rizutto were in New York City. ALL of the agent provocateur work and disruption of political events occurred in New York City. Yet these disingenuous deniers ask us straight-faced to accept that a major federal investigative bureau made an honest mistake when they went to the New Orleans Roosevelt Hotel to follow up on Rizutto's leads? Then with specific information that Earl Perry was from El Paso and directly connected to times and dates associated with SR Landesberg and Oswald that they made an honest mistake in going to the wrong Earl Perry in another state? I'd love to see the deniers try to get away with that in front of a jury. Lee had to keep busy while Harvey was in Russia.
When you point out that SH Landesberg lived at a distinctly different address than SR Landesberg you get an evasive answer that dwells on a typo rather than directly answering that this proves they were two different people. Also Golz is a pretty unimpeachable source who has provided good information about other critical assassination evidence. The preponderance of the evidence not only points towards SR Landesberg saying he regretted ever getting involved with Oswald but also following it up with an incriminating reaction when confronted. No, the deniers are not innocently pointing out flaws in Armstrong's quotes and citations. You can read their posts. They are openly attacking Armstrong and his entire body of research with an intent to totally discredit it. But if you look at the bulk of their claims it is basically typo-type nitpicking that tries to maximize the weakest flaw and uses it to avoid answering the vast majority of the evidence that speaks the opposite of what they so uncredibly contend. If I recall the CIA conspiracy theory document also instructed agents to pick out flaws in conspiracy theorists claims and emphasize them in order to denigrate their research and its reputation. These deniers flagrantly avoid answering your post, disappear for a couple of weeks, and then pop up with an attitude that this was already covered and they have credibility.
I'd bet the FBI photo showed SRL with a beard.
I'd bet there's an FBI document clearly stating Barry Gray told FBI L'eandes was a different person than Rizutto.
There are some very poor researchers out there who don't realize, as Michael points out, that the New York City Oswald associated with Landesberg was only relevant to operations at the time. Those operations could have involved infiltration of Russia for espionage purposes. Sheep-dipping of Oswald for penetration of extremist groups. Agent provocateur work. Assassination of Castro, etc. A good researcher would see that Oswald being involved in the assassination speaks of his being set-up and used as a patsy after being selected from the pool of already-known operatives. Any New York City doubles work would then be totally irrelevant. And the gist remains unanswered.
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So, a "cutting edge" intelligence operation means deliberately endangering the life of an in-country agent in order to accomplish some sort of collateral deception at home, for which it would be entirely irrelevant which name a different agent used? I think not. That's more like a "Laurel and Hardy" intelligence operation.
Picking out a flaw in a conspiracy theory is not a field of work limited to disinformation agents of the CIA. As I'm sure you are aware, since you all routinely criticize selected conspiracy theories yourselves.
That wasn't aimed at you Drew. However CIA agents regularly put their lives on the line. It was an accepted risk of the occupation. I don't think you realize having two people with the same name was all part of psychological warfare that could be used to strategic advantage. The rest is just acknowledging the evidence.
Dead Proof:
Here is Steve Landesberg right in character doing a southern accent and mocking Jews on Merv Griffin.
Now all we need to do is find the archive for the 1990 show and show him admitting mixing with Oswald:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgKih7OIcM
Drew Phipps Wrote:So, a "cutting edge" intelligence operation means deliberately endangering the life of an in-country agent in order to accomplish some sort of collateral deception at home, for which it would be entirely irrelevant which name a different agent used? I think not. That's more like a "Laurel and Hardy" intelligence operation.
Picking out a flaw in a conspiracy theory is not a field of work limited to disinformation agents of the CIA. As I'm sure you are aware, since you all routinely criticize selected conspiracy theories yourselves.
Drew... you appear to me to be looking at 1960 with a 2015 POV...
No cellphones, internet, faxes... only what the Mass Media, owned primarily by the Mil Ind Cong Complex, told you.
With 1960 eyeballs these connections would not be made outside those in the know...
Unless you yourself have planned and/or participated in one of these "cutting edge intel operations" how would you know what is in the mind of CIA planners? Even if you WERE ever involved, each operation has its own set of safeguards and controls so that you may still not be in the know.
What we see of these operations is barely associated with what the operation was designed to accomplish...
The CIA was not in the "obvious" business Drew... And to me, it is just as much a possibility that KGB assets in the US MICC had a hand in creating these situations... we really have no idea who was working for who, as Philby so readily proved.
Imagine for a second that a KGB asset within the CIA suggests using eastern european immigrants to create network of spies who may have ins into the Russian world... That HARVEY was and always would be a KGB asset placed into a CIA program to infiltrate from the inside after many years...
These were the KGB's tactics that they used to spy on the rest of the world... long term infiltration and placement programs into the "free" world....
All I'm getting at is we simply do not know who was doning what for whom... based on the evidence left behind.
DJ
Steven Richard Landesberg speaking in a southern drawl and talking about using Jews as political props (A finding that should at least get a response due to the significance of its meaning):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jgKih7OIcM
Even more southern accents from Landesberg and talk of Jews. Hang with it at least up to 2:20 where he says "I love southern accents". This is pay-dirt. Steven R Landesberg is the man who is openly known for speaking in a southern accent. He kept doing it all his career. This is L'eandes no doubt and the man who was with Oswald and spoke in a southern accent:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca_-AV_k1ZY
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There's a basic flaw in the denier's attack on Armstrong's Landesberg evidence.
They are saying Steven Harris Landesberg was an unstable stuttering schizophrenic when trying to destroy his credibility. But what they don't want you to notice is that Al Fowler said L'eandes was a likable person with a friendly personality and that he liked him. If you look at the You-Tube videos of SR Landesberg indeed we see exactly that, a personable, humorous, likable guy who used his personal charm to establish fame and an acting career. The person we see in those You-Tube videos fits Fowler's description to a T. - Not to mention the southern accent.
Now we look at SH Landesberg whom those same H&L attackers are claiming was so weird and unstable that he was forced into psychiatric care not once but twice. Is this the same person who charmed Al Fowler and was a regular at the Circle Bar? Is this the same person who was so social as to give Rizzuto a long list of friends to confirm who he was? Is the unstable hoaxing nut SH Landesberg a guy who Michael Dunn would have roomed with?
The deniers have stretched their lies too far and the unstable stuttering psychotic SH Landesberg doesn't quite reach far enough to line up with the smooth and confident, socially-connected L'eandes.