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Myra Bronstein

I hope people inside and outside of this forum recognize this latest salvo against organized labor, in this case the United Auto Workers--the Union who created the American middle class.

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?optio...mival=3009

December 22, 2008
GOP memo indicates vendetta against unions

Does the Employee Free Choice Act give workers rights or take them away?

Last week, a memo was released that circulated amongst Republican Party senators prior to the vote on the proposed auto bailout. The memo advocated stopping the bailout as an opportunity to 'take their first shot at organized labor', and the Senators were able to filibuster the bill, forcing President Bush to use money from the $700 B financial bailout package to finance GM and Chrysler and save them from bankruptcy. Ron Blackwell opines that the GOP's real target is the Employee Free Choice Act, a piece of legislation which would drastically change existing regulations around union organizing and has the support of President-elect Barack Obama.


The current "economic crisis" is being used opportunistically--as Naomi Klein explains--to advance the right wing agenda. Destroying organized labor is high atop the right wing agenda, throughout the globe, over many decades.


http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php
Friday, December 12th, 2008
Senate to Middle Class: Drop Dead ...a message from Michael Moore

Friends,

They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers start building only cars and mass transit that reduce our dependency on oil.
They could have given the loan on the condition that the automakers build cars that reduce global warming.

...But instead, the Senate said, we'll give you the loan only if the factory workers take a $20 an hour cut in wages, pension and health care. That's right. After giving BILLIONS to Wall Street hucksters and criminal investment bankers -- billions with no strings attached and, as we have since learned, no oversight whatsoever -- the Senate decided it is more important to break a union, more important to throw middle class wage earners into the ranks of the working poor than to prevent the total collapse of industrial America.
...

Of course that is heresy to the 31 Republicans who decided to blame the poor, miserable autoworkers for this mess. And our wonderful media complied with their spin on the morning news shows: "UAW Refuses to Give Concessions Killing Auto Bailout Bill." In fact the UAW has given concession after concession, reduced their benefits, agreed to get rid of the Jobs Bank and agreed to make it harder for their retirees to live from week to week. Yes! That's what we need to do! It's the Jobs Bank and the old people who have led the nation to economic ruin!

But even doing all that wasn't enough to satisfy the bastard Republicans. These Senate vampires wanted blood. Blue collar blood. You see, they weren't opposed to the bailout because they believed in the free market or capitalism. No, they were opposed to the bailout because they're opposed to workers making a decent wage. In their rage, they were driven to destroy the backbone of this country, not because the UAW hadn't given back enough, but because the UAW hadn't given up.
...
The thing about the GOP and like going for the UAW is that they are a strong union. If they can knock out the strong unions the smaller one's will fall on their own. They tried that here (Australia) with the Maritime Union. Britain with the Miners Union and Printers (Murdoch and the move to Wapping)

Myra Bronstein

Magda Hassan Wrote:...They tried that here (Australia) with the Maritime Union. Britain with the Miners Union and Printers (Murdoch and the move to Wapping)

What happened with the Maritime Union? Clearly they're still around.
In glorious technicolor here:

http://mua.org.au/war/

War on the Waterfront


Power in the Union
A short film on the Patrick dispute produced by the International Transport Workers' Federation...Music by Billy Bragg

Cloak & Dagger: the secret plans emerge
The full war plan for the docks remains secret. But a brief prepared for the Prime Minister in April, 1997 and leaked to parliament in July outlines the gameplan. "The use of a maritime issue would make it easier to sack stevedores for striking over an issue which was not directly relevant to their own employment."
First skirmish: Cairns & victory to international solidarity
Shock troopers conducted exercises on an Australian ship, manhandling an MUA seafarer while they were at it."It was no longer a question of if there would be a fight, but when."
The Dubai Debacle
The year ended with a proverbial bang on the Australian waterfront. On December 3 the Australian Council of Trade Unions and the Maritime Union of Australia exposed that a group of Sandline-style mercenaries were flying to Dubai to train as wharfies."This is real gangland warfare stuff and Jimmy Hoffa-style"
Terror
Brian Gallager had heard that there was to be a military exercise on board his ship, the Australian Enterprise..."Five or six men, their heads covered, ran up behind me from the starboard side of the ship yelling and screaming at me: 'Get down, get down,'"
[URL="http://mua.org.au/war/terror.html"][READ MORE]
[/URL]
War at Webb Dock
Whether Chris Corrigan, employer of about 2,000 Maritime Union members around the coast, was the spider out to entice the union into his clutches, or just another cockroach entangled in his own foibles and a web of intrigue spun in Canberra, is slowly being revealed. "This is obviously just another sorry chapter in the Australian Sandline industrial mercenary saga," said MUA National Secretary John Coombs."These cowboys are trying to get New Zealand workers to train as union busters. I wouldn't be surprised if their first job isn't training
The Defectors
3 men exposed how the training at Webb dock was a sham."it was heard that Patrick Stevedores would sack its entire unionised workforce by Easter - symbolically Crucifixion Day"
Goebbels Inspired: Propaganda at its best
Productivity on the wharves has mysteriously plummeted ? Or so the Government publicists would like us believe.."Deception, distortion, half truths, lies & make belief."
Invasion: Guards & dogs on the docks
Hundreds of guards and dogs storm the wharves under cover of darkness as Patrick boss Chris Corrigan sacks his entire 2000 strong workforce nationwide."The place was crawling with them, about 100 men and dogs."
Mobilisation: pickets, priests & public protest
Ministers of the cloth come to bless the Fremantle picket by candlelight"It was extraordinary stuff.....allowing helicopters to sweep in over the crowd onto the Patrick wharves, bringing in scabs and managers"
Judgement Day: Courts rule against Corrigan
The battle between Patrick, an employer hell bent on breaking the Maritime Union of Australia and the union..."We've had a total of 10 out of 11 judges rule in our favour in 3 trials. That's 10 to 1 in our favour, a win in anyone's language."
Peace Treaty: Patrick forced to settle out of court
Patrick Port Botany workers were put off pay on March 18 when Minister for Workplace Relations, Peter Reith, advised that they could not be paid if they refused to work overtime."They wanted to sack the lot and have them reapply for their jobs,"
The Return - Workers reclaim the wharves
It was lunchtime when the union lawyers withdrew their submission in the Federal Court to have 'dogs and goons' removed from all Patrick terminals before the labour returned to work."It was pretty clean" said Assistant Branch Secretary Barry Robson. "I guess the scabs had nothing better to do than tidy up for a couple of weeks. There'd been no delivery or receival of cargo."
Art Attack
Conspiracy has become a fine art. Thanks to Howard, Reith & Co. it is now framed and hanging in the nation's galleries. "What started as a few pictures turned into an obsession. I felt insulted by the lies told by the Government and Chris Corrigan.
Humour at the front: How Australia's top cartoonists see it
A Cartoon History of the great docks dispute features Australia's great political cartoonists: Moir, Nicholson, Petty, Rowe, Tandberg, Leak, Leunig, O'Neill, Pryor, Coopes, Leahy, Spooner, Emmerson, Clement and many more."We need to be reminded of these things, and these great illustrations, like tatoos on the brain, will keep us vigilant."
Who Cares - Letters of support from unions overseas and abroad
Letters of support from unions overseas and abroad, the community, including farmers, flooded into MUA National Office, each day during the Patrick dispute.
WA Conspiracy Inc
NOVEMBER, 1998: The Maritime Union of Australia has successfully launched a second conspiracy case, this time against the Western Australian Government and the Geraldton Port Authority."Reith has publicly backed the move all the way," said National Secretary John Coombs. "The conspiracy we've exposed has got all the elements of the Patrick plot, including Dubai trainees waiting in the wings. When this all comes out in court it could prove as damaging to the Court Government, if not more so, than the WA Inc debacle that brought down the previous Labor Government.
Tribute to Vic
MUA Assistant National Secretary Vic Slater retires after over three decades on the waterfront Vic Slater, professor, philosopher, wharfie, unionist, election punter, negotiator, internationalist, communist, campaigner and man of compassion retired from the union and the labour movement in February, 1999.The mobile kept ringing. Emotions were high. Angry wharfies spoke of defending their jobs with their lives - of blood on the wharves. News came that workers at Darling Harbour, Sydney, were refusing to leave. We jumped in the car and sped back to Hickson Road and waited, unionists outside the gates taunting the grinning 'two legged dogs' and their furry friends on the inside.
Address by (then) MUA National Secretary John Coombs
Address by MUA National Secretary John Coombs, Australian Institute of Management 1998 Annual Conference (16/10/98): Getting it Right: Changing the Rules of Management Managing Their Way....'Patrick has a way with people... his way or else.'
The Waterfront: One year on
MAY, 1999: ONE year after what was arguably the biggest Australian industrial dispute in living memory and the Maritime Union of Australia is STILL Here to Stay."Kelty's success will be measured by how many companies follow Patrick's lead and tackle unions head-on. At this stage, most companies are spooked... The legacy of the waterfront dispute is that the construction companies are unwilling to take on the CFMEU... Reith's frustration is palpable as he flounders in attempts to persuade business to use his 1996 Workplace Relations Act to its full potential."
The Waterfront: two years on
APRIL, 2000: The timing could not have been better. On Friday, April 6, the eve of the second anniversary of the Patrick Dispute, Justice Marshall of the Federal Court rejected an application on behalf of Peter Reith, that disclosure of the secret waterfront documents "would be contrary to the public interest". Reith's dock days draw nearerHow much more international condemnation can the Howard/Reith Government sustain before it achieves the international notoriety of the likes of President Slobodan Milosevic?
The Waterfront 3 years on - Labor salutes Labour
Dogged, determined, tenacious, passionate, compassionate, courageous, a genuinely tough fighter, a warrior, a one man intelligence operation, a remarkable man, a man of integrity, a decent person, a fair person, everyone's favourite uncle, one who inspires others, who saved the union, one of the giants of the labour movement."The company here to salute John Coombs demonstrates what a remarkable man he is," said Opposition leader Kim Beazley. "John's victory capped a career in the labour movement which will leave him among the legends for decades and centuries to come."

Myra Bronstein

Magda Hassan Wrote:In glorious technicolor here:
...

Thanks Maggie!
Destroying the Village in Order to Save It
Confederate Yankee is here to explain the economy and why its collapse is the fault of you. We join this Confederate Yankee post already in progress.
[...] And so the government is going to steal $17.4 billion more from taxpayers to prolong the inevitable death of unions companies that don’t deserve to live.
For that matter, much of the manufacturing in this country doesn’t deserve to live, particularly that created with non-competitive union labor so prevalent in the Northeast and upper Midwest.
It looks like he’s gone into abandon New Orleans mode again, only this time he’s saying it was a stupid idea to build a country where a recession could get it.
[...] The simple fact of the matter is that the U.S. auto industry is not just Ford, Chrysler, and GM, but Honda, Toyota, and other “foreign” manufacturers that build cars here on the mainland United States. What separates the successful companies that aren’t asking for a bailout from the leaches grubbing for tax dollars from your already empty wallet? Greedy, bloated, self-serving and uncompetitive union labor, particularly the United Auto Workers (UAW).
Oh no, not the United Auto Workers (UAW)!


Okay, well, as you’re noticing the received distortions about the auto companies vis-à-vis the UAW (the suspicion has long been with us that Mr. Yankee consumes talk radio — which, given his position as a conservative blogger of some prominence, is like a moonshiner who gets wrecked on airplane glue), note as well the ease with which conservatives have pivoted to support Japanese companies against nominally American ones, and their new skepticism toward the sort of blue-collar flypaper that was set out by John McCain back in, oh gosh, way back in September of 2008: “Our workers are the most innovative, the hardest-working, the best-skilled, most productive, most competitive in the world. That’s the American worker. And my opponents may disagree, but those fundamentals — the American worker and their innovation, their entrepreneurship, the small business, those are the fundamentals of America, and I think they’re strong. But they are being threatened today.”
Then again, McCain’s speechwriter smartly conjoined ‘worker’ with ‘entrepreneurship’ and ’small business,’ so it can’t be said that he didn’t actually mean toilers in the fields of ownership and finance. Sneaky that way! Back to Mr. Yankee:
Non-union car factories are cranking out the smaller, higher-quality, more fuel efficient fleets that America wants to buy, while the unionized Big Three are cranking out bloated beasts that carry and estimated $2,000 of overhead per vehicle because of concessions the automakers have made the unions over the years in noncompetitive benefits and pensions.
This has become a popular unsourced claim, but even more appealing has been the plaint that American car companies are going under because they’ve been forced by government regulation to build smaller, more fuel-efficient cars instead of bloated beasts, etc. Perhaps the first set of imaginary circumstances can negotiate a free trade agreement with the second set, creating what business experts call a “win-win.”
As a result of this bloat, to make their cars competitive on the price point, unionized companies have to remove $2,000 from some other part of that vehicle, affecting the overall quality, durability, fit, finish, and reliability. Detroit is in trouble because they’re cranking out cars that are worth less than their competitors, and buyers know it.
Is this true? We don’t know! Luckily, we have this:
[Image: mathbook.jpg]
Above: Book we luckily have
If the average GM car takes 22.15 person-hours to build, and even if by some accounting unknown to art or science each GM worker were actually, in real life and not in some conservative crack dream, making $73 per hour (totaling $1,616.95 in labor costs per car), then how full of crap does the $2,000 figure appear to be?
Answer: If we assume that each car ought to carry $0.00 in labor costs — i.e., to be built by slaves who forage elsewhere for food and shelter; or by a combination of those slaves and some kind of robot that you can acquire for free, and that doesn’t require any power and never breaks down — the figure appears even then to be full of at least $383.05 worth of crap, per car.1
Confederate Yankee now owes us this sum in addition to that of our previous invoice.
We rejoin this Confederate Yankee post already in progress:
[...] Michigan, New York, California… look at a the map of the areas most affected during our current economic crisis, and you’ll see areas of large populations in the Northeast, West Coast, and upper Midwest (historical big government Democratic enclaves) and a handful of swing states.
We looked and looked, and no such map was to be seen. Maybe there was a plate in the hardcover version of his post that’s missing from the paperback edition.
In any case, it’s certainly weird that the areas most affected by the crisis are centers of populations and finance. You’d think the deep South would be the first to crash, with the Franklin Mint bubble taking out Waffle House and Cracker Barrel, whose collapse would wipe out the rustic knick-knack manufacturers, dropping the floor out from under the Beanie Baby speculators, and so on down the line until you reach John Deere, at which point it’s game-over for Amway, Carhartt, Philip Morris, Mary Kay, QVC, Bob’s Big Boy, and the whole line of dominoes leading from Bally/Midway and the rest of the video poker manufacturers to Winn-Dixie and Piggly Wiggly, and from there to one Branson concern after the next, wiping out Winnebago before toppling various Indian tribes and their casino buffet and dream-catcher keychain suppliers, landing subsequently on Disney itself, at which point the coastal elites would notice something missing but not be able to put their finger quite on what it was, until 3AM one night when they sat bolt upright in bed, saying, “Oh my God, whatever happened to the Jonas Brothers?”
Democrats in Congress (and soon to be in the White House) are unwilling to address the fact that the big government economic politics of FDR and LBJ are the politics of long-term economic failure.
This is an idea worthy of admiration. After the Clinton-blamers had recited their catechisms, and after Rush Limbaugh did what Rush Limbaugh does by blustering and har-harring about ‘the Obama Recession,’ Ace, a man of vision in some ways, raised the standard of étonne-moi! by blaming the current situation on Jimmy Carter. But now with “the politics of long-term economic failure,” we learn that the economy has been tanking ever since America stopped listening to Herbert Hoover — or, actually, it’s a brilliant enough phrase that you could blame everything on Teddy Roosevelt and the Progressive Era if you wanted to, or on the cruel way in which John Adams marginalized Alexander Hamilton, or come to think of it on Oliver Cromwell.
The next time our pants are too tight in the nuts, we’ll blame LBJ for the politics of long-term pants malfunction.
Also, note that the Democrats are in trouble once again for their refusal to address this wacky rationalization that Mr. Yankee just invented. I would mention in reply that Republicans are unwilling to address their own prosampiquity, which is a word I invented.
They are continuing to sap the ability of businesses to do business, while pandering to the unions that are dragging their constituencies into ruin.
Someday America will come to its senses, and businesses will be exempt from all laws while workers receive no pay.
Don’t worry about this being a partisan attack…
Wait one second here, is this some kind of partisan…? Oh, whew.
There are plenty of “go along, get along” RINO Republicans that voted for the same legislation on both the state and federal levels to get us to where we are today.
Someday Republicans will come to their senses and defy the leftist establishment.
If you look at the areas of the country hardest hit during our current economic crisis, the bulk are those that long ago embraced big government solutions. New York. New Jersey. California. Michigan. Ohio.
Look at those areas that have weathered the financial storm better. The Deep South. The lower Midwest. The Western states.
Oh wait, we found the map he’s been talking about.
[Image: jesusland.jpg]
Those states that have taken the hardest hits are those that have embraced big government intrusion and union meddling. Those that have survived are those areas with far more business-friendly markets.
SCARECROW: Mua-ha-ha-ha!
FRED: I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
VELMA: Alive as you or me,
SHAGGY: Says I, “But Joe, you’re ten years dead,”
SCOOBY: “Ri rever ried,” rez ree…
SCARECROW: Goddamn it! [pulls off mask]
KIDS: Mr. Jenkins!
JENKINS: And I would have gotten away with it too, if not for you big-government kids and your union meddling.
You’re no fool, and…
It’s like he’s talking directly to us!
…I’m sure you’ve noticed that businesses and talented individuals with a drive to succeed have been migrating away from the bloated big government states to the free market states in droves within the past decade.
Indeed, although on the down side, some have had to kill their oxen, while others died of dysentery. Later, individuals with a thirst for adventure collected keys in a space station infested with aliens and zombie space marines.
No, but really here, what we’ve mostly been noticing is that jobs and capital have been draining out of the US into places like China and Haiti, where there’s a generational underclass that will work long hours under dangerous conditions for crap pay.
Mr. Yankee is thinking of a world in which things are not necessarily as they are — i.e., affected by what many have called a “global race to the bottom” — but as they ought to be. In Free-Markistan, just as lowering taxes always increases revenue and deregulation always fosters good business practices, lowering wages always benefits employees:
The “best and brightest” are fleeing cramped Northeastern apartments for McMansions on the outskirts of Atlanta; the tech companies are peeling away from Silicon Valley and Silicon Alley to relocate to climates where they have cheaper land and more educated labor pools, like North Carolina’s Research Triangle Park.
For example, on Monday I’m joining a brand new marketing department of a major international high technology company.
Insert observation about “the best and brightest.”
They needed more staff, and determined that they could add more people and get more bang for their buck by building a new marketing unit from the ground up in North Carolina, for far less than they could add staff to an existing marketing unit in their California operations. Once they started interviewing, they were further impressed that the quality of resumes here was also significantly higher than they were used to in their California headquarters.
Imagine how well they’d do in India, where computer science Ph.D.s will line up to work at your help desk for $4,500 a year. That means that India’s economy is flourishing because it is a free-market country and not a bloated, big-government country full of pampered, parasitical workers, that doesn’t deserve to live.
That’s ten well-paying white collar jobs that California lost and North Carolina gained, and when the time comes to add more people to the marketing unit, which location do you think will have a natural advantage? Obviously, the site with lower operating and salary costs and a higher-quality recruiting pool has a distinct advantage.
Obviously so, as we learned just today from the Charlotte Observer:
Jobless rate for N.C. surges to 25-year high
State’s workers lose jobs at a record pace. Double-digit unemployment seen for 2009.
North Carolina lost jobs at a record pace last month, pushing unemployment to a 25-year high as the outlook for the state darkened amid a deepening recession.
Employers slashed 46,000 jobs in November, more than in any state except Florida, according to data released Friday by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Those job cuts pushed the unemployment rate to 7.9 percent from 7.1 percent in October, according to figures from the N.C. Employment Security Commission. The jobless rate is now the highest since October 1983.
Damn that William Hooper and his politics of long-term economic failure.
Admittedly, this MSM story lacks all credibility because it utterly fails to account for the other people who might be added to the marketing unit.
[...]
And so I find it particularly amusing that “intellectuals” that remain in their fading big government enclaves are now panicking that those slow and stupid hicks are doing so much better than they are, and feel the solution is to penalize those areas that are doing well by forcing them to accept their failing ideologies.
Hyuk hyuk! Ah wurk fer six-fifty an hour, an ah got no health insurance a-tall, kyew-kyew! [arm pump]
This guy in particular is amusing with his blatant regional bigotry and assumed superiority. He won’t admit it and perhaps can’t even see it with his nose stuck so high in the air, but his attitude of entitlement, shared with minimally-skilled, over-compensated union sops, that has wrecked his region’s economy and led them to such desperate thoughts as attempting to force a laughable “Reconstruction” on successful southern states to make them more like failing big government northern trainwrecks.
Here’s a deal, then. We liberals will leave the red states and take our Rural Electrification Projects and Eisenhower Highway Systems with us, if the red states will stop taking our money:
[Image: redstatesocialism.jpg]
1 Or more, considering that the $2,000 is ‘removed from the car,’ while in other wingnut estimations, the workers are also responsible for a similar inflation of the car’s final price. In other words, you can basically just make it up a number and blame it on anything you want.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/115387/
Am I the only one that can see the total BS that is bandied about by both political parties that the Big Three MUST make smaller,more fuel efficent vehicles that the American Public really want is pure fiction.Yes the public wants better fuel efficiency,but they also want pickup trucks and vehicles that can transport FAMILIES with at least a wee bit of comfort.I'm not overweight,but I'm pretty sure an overweight person does not want to sit in some little cracker box,and then try to wiggle themselves out of the front seat(let alone some little crack to sqeeze out from the back).For the most part,the auto companies were making what the people demanded.Then when the politicians get off their stump they jump into their big black gas guzzling SUV's and joyfully go home.Then there's the super elites that have small convoys of these big black rigs to let themselves know that they're "SPECIAL".Why are they all black?What kind of vehicles do the labor busting crew of Shelby, Corker,etc.drive?Where is the paparazzi when you need them?Expose them idiot bastards...

Keith
Keith, watch 'Who Killed the Electric Car?' in our You Tube channel if you haven't already seen it. Ten or 15 years ago GM made the EV1. It was an all electric car that didn't look like a golf buggy, drove really well and costs nothing (if you use solar for recharge, still cheaper than gas and less pollution if you used coal fired mains power) to run and little to maintain. They scrapped it. Shredded it actually into thousands of tiny pieces despite the lease holders wanting and offering to buy them they were never sold only leased. Corporations do what they want (make money) not what consumers want. Genetically engineered foods are the classic example of that. There is absolutely no demand for (and a strong reaction against) genetically engineered foods but that is what is being foisted on the unwitting consumer. Corporations of almost any kind are there to meet their needs not consumer needs. Meeting consumer needs are a by product and not primary. Most people would love to drive something that costs nothing or less than gas to run and has zero emissions (and still less carbon footprint than fossil fuel if charged by mains electricity) but it is not offered despite the technology existing. I absolutely agree with you that some people want a vehicle that can transport their family in comfort and safety and this can be done with alternative technology to power them. But as far as engines go we don't need cars with great hulking engines that go 250kmh (at least in Australia where the maximum speed anywhere is 100kmh) as a standard. 95% of people just don't need it. Even personal ownership of a vehicle is often un-nessecary since they sit there unused most of the time and cost a lot of money to buy and run. Extensive public transportation infrastructure and something like this http://www.warren.usyd.edu.au/bulletin/N...41art4.htm is a better solution for society and the planet. But it is the job of the Advertising Industry to make us want thing we don't need. So they drape women on the bonnet and allow you to dream that you're buying a whole lot more than just a vehicle . Again not meeting our needs but their own and other corporations. And so it goes. The human is left out of the loop again.

Myra Bronstein

Magda Hassan Wrote:Keith, watch 'Who Killed the Electric Car?' in our You Tube channel if you haven't already seen it. Ten or 15 years ago GM made the EV1....The human is left out of the loop again.

Great post Maggie. Next I'd like to learn about who killed public transportation, 'cept that the answer would likely be the same. I don't know about other countries, but in most cities in the US we're set up so we can hardly survive without a car, wouldn't even be able to get to work. Most places I live lack sidewalks. (This is also a factor in American obesity.)

The oil industry has had a huge negative impact on our communities and even our bodies.
Magda,
Yes I've seen the movie,and my last post was just a big rant.I understand what you all are saying.Things are different for some people though.There is a big difference if you live in the city,or in the countryside.I don't live in cities,and most people who don't use/need trucks that can haul heavy loads(firewood,lumber,hay etc.)It's a 130 mile round trip just for me to see my doctor at the VA.Twice that if I have to go to the Portland VA.I am totally for a non polluting electric car,but it's not practical for some.Another thing that bothers me is if we shift to more and more electricy,it will only boost the Nuclear Power lobbies.I hope to hell we never build another one here in the US.People fought hard to dismantal the Nukes in the Northwest,and I'm proud that we have none out here now.But yes,build them electric cars.They would be great for city folk.Like everything else nothing is just black and white,their are many shades of grey.Anyways,my rant was mainly about the elites,who talk smack about the UAW,and gas guzzlers,and then jump in their big ass SUVs'.The image that burns in my eyes is when Hillary Clinton was to have her meeting with Obama,and the press was all there at her mansion,and she drives away in her BIG BLACK SUV,followed by her escourt of another three BIG BLACK Suvs'.OK,sorry for ranting.Rolleyes

Keith
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