Deep Politics Forum

Check out the work done on the Nix film. What's the story on the estate car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uDuhgBR4R8

Jeff Kahle Wrote:Check out the work done on the Nix film. What's the story on the estate car?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uDuhgBR4R8

Jeff,

Fabulous! The vehicle behind the retaining wall, is that whch you call an estate car? If so, it is a Ford Edsel station wagon owned by Rubin Goldstein, also called 'Ruby', who was a good friend of Jack Ruby's. Goldstein owned a pawn shop named Honest Joe's Pawn Shop, where he sold guns, used police uniforms, and other items found in pawn shops. On November 22 before the presidential motorcade arrived at Dealey Plaza, this vehicle was being driven around and about the Plaza and then parked behind the retaining wall next to the pergola. As it was driven around to advertise the pawn shop it was noticed by a few people, one of whom was Jean Hill, a spectator on the south side of Elm Street (opposite to the Grassy Knoll). She noticed that its windows were covered by cardboard, as if to hide what was inside.

A few years ago I initiated a topic on this on the Education Forum which produced a lot of information in the discussion. I will try to find the link for it.

Adele

Jeff,

I'm sorry. It looks like the Education Forum has not retained these old posts.

Adele

Yes, good work, but the 'enhanced' version is poorer every time! Robert Groden did a better job, by far.

Thanks for the responce Adele---interesting stuff.

Do you know of any other photos of the wagon driving around before the motorcades arrival? Also, when did it leave---any before after photos...

Jeff Kahle Wrote:Thanks for the responce Adele---interesting stuff.

Do you know of any other photos of the wagon driving around before the motorcades arrival? Also, when did it leave---any before after photos...

Hi, Jeff,

Reports of it traveling in and about Dealey Plaza can be found in the reports by eye witnesses such as Jean Hill in Jim Marrs' book, CROSSFIRE. There was a Marine Corps veteran who was on the north side of Elm Street who witnessed the vehicle driving about as he waited for the motorcade to appear. He gave a statement to the Dallas Police which I read on the internet, and I wish I could remember his name now.* There were some photos of this wagon taken at other times; it had a machine gun replica on its roof as part of its advertising for the pawn shop, and it was seen so frequently in downtown Dallas that most citizens there did not make much of its appearance in Dealey Plaza that day. It was as if it was just part of the scenery. Apparently, the police did not prevent it from going behind the pegola, although Jean Hill and her friend Mary Moorman had been waved away by police from that area when they first arrived at Dealey Plaza, and they were just pedestrians.

I have no information about the vehicle leaving, which would have been after the last shot had been fired. In the melee that resulted, no one seemed to notice the wagon. I can't tell whether it is facing forward (toward Elm Street) or whether it had been backed into that space. The view could be of a windshield or of a wide back window. In either case, it could have driven straight out or backed out and turned around behind the pergola and exited onto the streets in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building where there was a driveway to and from the parking lot behind the pergola and fence area.

Forrest Sorrels, head of the US Secret Service in Dallas, rode in the motorade behind the president's limousine and noticed the vehicle on the Grassy Knoll, so it was still there by the time the car he was in came onto Elm Street from Houston. I don't remember how far back of the limousine his car would have been, 2 or 3, 4 cars back? He went on to talk with Rubin Goldstein at his pawn shop some days after the assassination and from what I've been told, purchased a Mannllicher-Carcano carbine (?) from him. He later confronted Jack Ruby, saying that he had been talking with his (Jack Ruby's) good friends. Incidentally, Forrest Sorrels knew Orville Nix very well, as Nix worked as a heating and air conditioning engineer in the building that housed the Dallas Secret Service Office. Sorrels went with Nix to the FBI to offer his film to them and they did not want it! Eventually, it was taken, and presumably worked over. The first time I saw the Nix film on the internet, the upper half of it was blocked over so that the retaining wall and the station wagon could not be seen at all, only the president's limousine, spectators, and motorcade on the lower half of the film. When it was finally released in full, the vehicle could be seen. However, there were some reports that a man had been seen standing on its running board with a gun.....

As you may know, Jean Hill in her videoed interviews has always said that the fatal shot to the head of JFK came from the Grassy Knoll. Immediately after the last shot was fired, people ran up to the Knoll. Beverly Oliver was one of these people and she claims that she saw "Geneva White's husband", dressed in a policeman's uniform, but without a hat and a pistol or badge. Geneva White worked in Jack Ruby's Carousel Club and was married to Roscoe White, Marine veteran who served at the same time as Lee Harvey Oswald, and who was a highly skilled sharpshooter. He had recently (October, 1963) been hired by the Dallas Police Department as a photographer and clerk, but was NOT a trained policeman. He was being trained, but did not finish his studies until sometime in 1964. He would not have been allowed to wear a police uiiform on that day because he was not yet policeman. Could he have been the man with a gun on the running board of the Honest Joe's Pawn Shop station wagon?

*That Marine vet who saw the wagon driving about Dealey Plaza before the motorcade had a name like "Mulligan" or maybe "Mullican"???? Am not sure, except I associated his name with someone I knew years and years ago named Mullican.
A Google search or a search on the Mary Farrell Foundation site might produce more information and leads. You could contact me through the message system here as I'll probably recall more details now that I'm thinking about it.

Adele

A. J. Millican perhaps Adele ?

David Butler Wrote:A. J. Millican perhaps Adele ?

Hi, David,

Yes, that could very well be it! Thanks. Do you have a reference to his testimony that he gave to the Dallas Police or Sheriff? He did not testify before the Warren Commission, so his statement is not very well known.

Adele

I have no idea who's site this is but it's got the text of what appears to be his testimony...

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/millican.htm

David Butler Wrote:I have no idea who's site this is but it's got the text of what appears to be his testimony...

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/millican.htm

David,

Yes, that is what I generally remember him saying. Note that he counted 8 shots fired, three, then two, then three again. He also identified their sources. As I recall, he had military experience with guns and gunshots, so I think he was givng very good infomation. Jean Hill always claimed she heard 6 or 7 shots. These two witnesses contradicted the three-shot-Oswald-did-it government non-conspiracy hypothesis.

Compliments to you for such good detective work. Thanks.

Adele