Deep Politics Forum

Lauren Johnson Wrote:

Quote:Can you direct me to the book and page number on which such a statement was made? I just checked the Secret
Team, just in case I had missed it, but couldn't find anything like that there.

Perhaps you are taking a bit of creative license?

Creative license? Just a big load of false memory syndrome. I've listened to Fletch's audio interviews, and I probably combined that with other things. But I do suspect there is some kind of trans-national cooperation going on. But St. Prouty did not say that. I stand corrected. Again.

No worries.

This combination of power elites did win its tremendous underground struggle against the peacemakers led by President Eisenhower when the U-2 reconnaissance spy-plane flown by Francis Gary Powers crash-landed in the heart of the Soviet Union only two weeks before the Paris summit conference. Powers' flight was a most unusual event. It was not part of the regularly scheduled series of routine U-2 operations. It was launched and directed by a small cell of inner elite for reasons which may never be possible for anyone to determine. If by any chance the thought had ever occurred to the four men who launched it that the failure of this relatively unimportant flight would completely wreck and vitiate all of the hopes and plans of the Eisenhower Crusade for Peace, they could not have chosen a more effective method or time to have done it. The very fact that what was done could have been done so easily according to a sinister plan, not an accident or Soviet act, serves only to fuel the thought that it might have been done on purpose. Such a simple thing as failure to supply the plane with sufficient hydrogen for the flight could have resulted, just as it did, in the certain flame-out of the engine and the subsequent failure of the mission - or success of the mission, depending upon the secret intent of those who dispatched it.

~~~

CIA documents show US never believed Gary Powers was shot down

U-2 pilot Gary Powers, a few weeks before his suspicious death in a helicopter crash in LA, revealed that he did not believe his plane was shot down by the Soviets and indicated sabotage on the part of the CIA instead, in order to undermine the possibility of detente between Eisenhower and Kruschev. It is not a "conspiracy theory" that Lee Harvey Oswald, one of nine Office of Naval Intelligence fake defectors who went to the USSR in the same month, told ONI's Richard Snyder at the American Embassy in Moscow that he was going to reveal the U-2 secrets to the Soviets. Oswald had been stationed, as a Marine, at every base the U-2 operated from, including Atsugi, Japan and tracked it by radar. He had a Crypto clearance. Those things are in the historical record. It is not likely that he gave up any such information or would have been allowed to. Snyder kept Oswald's proffered passport and did not act on his renunciation of US citizenship. Snyder returned the passport to Oswald on his way out of Russia with his new bride Marina, transportation paid by the State Department. Nice treatment for a defector who gave secrets to the Soviets. Marina even got Oswald's story confused with another ONI defector, Robert Webster, when she testified to the Warren Commission about how her husband got to the Soviet Union and where he lived in Moscow. However if sabotage of the detente was in the planning, it would have been useful to use the Oswald deception to explain how the Soviets could track and shoot down the U-2. This article suggests that Powers himself might have been a false defector as well. What is clear is that Powers did not buy the official story. John Judge
The London Times
May 1, 2010

CIA documents show US never believed Gary Powers was shot down
Giles Whittell, Washington Correspondent

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo...113512.ece

PHOTO
The legendary U.S. pilot Francis Gary Powers
Gary Powers in his pressure suit in front of his U2 spyplane. His mission was to fly for nine hours across the Soviet Union photographing suspected nuclear weapon sites and bomber landing fields

At 8.52 this morning a normally garrulous American is to observe a moment's silence outside the Lubyanka, headquarters of what used to be the KGB in central Moscow. He will be there to honour the good name of his father, Francis Gary Powers, whose reputation has suffered for half a century by association with one of the most enduring mysteries of the Cold War.

Fifty years ago today, in a full-body pressure suit and helmet, Powers was slammed forward against the canopy of his U2 spyplane 70,000ft above central Russia by a Soviet surface-to-air missile exploding close behind him. The blast wave dismembered the plane, tearing off first its tail section and then its wings, but leaving its pilot miraculously unhurt.

In an outer pocket of his suit Powers carried a suicide pin that he chose not to use. He hit the ground in shock but with hardly a scratch. By that evening he was in Moscow, in the Lubyanka. The shooting down and survival of Powers changed the course of history: it wrecked a superpower summit at which President Eisenhower and Nikita Khrushchev, the Soviet Premier, had hoped to launch a new era of détente.

What was not known until the recent declassification of CIA documents seen by The Times, was that top US officials never believed Powers' account of his fateful flight because it appeared to be directly contradicted by a report from the National Security Agency, the clandestine US network of codebreakers and listening posts.

The NSA report remains classified, possibly to spare the blushes of its authors. For it is now possible to piece together what really happened high over Sverdlovsk on May Day 1960 and to understand why America's most secretive intelligence agency got it so wrong.

According to a summary presented this week by Matthew Aid, the world's leading authority on the NSA, the agency's report described Soviet military air traffic controllers as after an aircraft that far from breaking up at close to 70,000ft as Powers later claimed descended slowly from 65,000 to 34,000ft, changed course and disappeared from their radar screens. If true, this would have meant that Powers was at best a liar and conceivably a traitor. According to one rumour circulated without discouragement from the CIA after the shooting down, he descended to a safe height, baled out and spent his first night as a defector in a Sverdlovsk nightclub.

Newly released documents from a secret inquiry into his conduct carried out in 1962, by which time the CIA had swapped him for a Soviet spy and exhaustively debriefed him, show that some in the agency still believed that the Russians might have hypnotised, drugged or brainwashed him to force him to change his story.

The truth was less bizarre but no less remarkable. Powers took off from Peshawar in northern Pakistan after three tense days spent waiting for the weather along his route to clear. His mission was to fly for nine hours, on a breakfast of steak and eggs, directly over half a dozen of the Soviet Union's most sensitive nuclear sites, photographing them and landing hundreds of miles north of the Arctic Circle on the Norwegian coast. Within minutes the entire Soviet Air Defence system was being mobilised on an order from Mr Khrushchev to bring him down at any cost. Captain Mikhail Voronov, commander of a missile battalion south of Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), was woken by an alarm at 7am.

"At first I thought it was a drill," he said in an interview at his home on the Black Sea. "It was not a drill. I was planning to walk over from the barracks to give my soldiers their traditional May Day congratulations. Instead I ran. We all ran. We rushed to our positions and when we got there I told my commander that my battalion was ready to fire." At about 8.45am Powers appeared as a dot on Captain Voronov's radar screen. A single rocket was launched and minutes later the screen appeared to indicate a direct hit. Yet Captain Voronov could not be sure. He did not report it until word reached his control cabin half an hour later that a pilot had fallen to earth nearby under a parachute.

It is now clear that in that half hour, with the U2 already strewn across the Russian countryside, two Soviet MiG pilots circling over Sverdlovsk were ordered to intercept and ram, if necessary. One of them, Lieutenant Sergei Safronov, was hit by a stray rocket from another battalion. He baled out, dying of his injuries on the way down, but the radar trace created by his plane closely matched the one described by NSA. The agency almost certainly mistook Lieutenant Safronov for Powers. Mr Aid said this week that the NSA misread its own vaunted signals intelligence. The agency has never conceded anything. In the absence of hard evidence from independent witnesses about what happened to

Powers' U2, conspiracy theories have sprouted like weeds. According to one, crucial information on his flight was passed in advance to Soviet intelligence by Lee Harvey Oswald, President Kennedy's assassin and a former junior radar operator at a U2 base in Japan. In another, advanced by James Nathan of the University of Alabama, Powers was either a pawn or an accomplice in a US plot to derail détente. Last month Professor Nathan said that he still believed the entire affair was cooked.

Yesterday, in Moscow, Gary Powers Jr said that it had taken the US Government 40 years to set the record straight about his father. He was being generous. It has taken 50, and the record still has kinks in it.

Giles Whittell is Washington Correspondent and the author of Bridge of Spies, an account of the U2 affair and the spy swap that followed it, published later this year.

The man behind the story

Francis Gary Powers, born in Jenkins, Kentucky in 1929, was a combat pilot in the 468th Strategic Fighter Squadron. He was a veteran of covert aerial reconnaissance missions

After the U2 incident he served 18 months of a ten-year sentence handed down by a Soviet military tribunal in 1960 in a prison about 160 kilometres east of Moscow

He was released in exchange for the Russian spy known as Colonel Rudolph Abel

When he returned to the US, Powers worked initially as a test pilot before becoming a helicopter pilot for a Los Angeles television station. He died in August 1977 when his helicopter ran out of fuel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My [PL] note: There seems to be a straight line between Black Operations including: the U2 incident, Dallas and 911 [with others in between] to maintain a state of war or just one step less than full out war from WW2 to present and onward for the foreseeable future...... Who Benefits? Follow the money!

First, assuming that Nagell was supposed to get wind of the plot as part of the plot is correct.
I would argue that this could have happened only as a counter intelligence strategy to:
a. To connect Oswald to a fake assassination threat against Kennedy (something different from the plot to kill JFK) in order to blame FPCC by assossiation with Oswald for the possible murder of the US President on orders from USSR and Cuba.
b. To force out KGB and Cuban agents to make themselves known
c. To create confusion and a false sense of reality so the Soviets and Cubans would think
that Oswald was a Pro Castro Communist trying to get JFK instead of Castro. That was Harvey
who was Lee's cover to hide the plan of assassinating Castro, a cover. If somebody got word that an Oswald was involved in a plot to kill Castro, they would have dismissed the idea since their agents would have reported that Oswald was aiming at JFK instead.
Nagell knew of plan that would occur near Washington, not Dallas and to me this indicate that it was an anti-FPCC operation to prove how dangerous they were to National Security.
The question is what would have happened if Nagell had actually killed Oswald, then the plot to assassinate JFK would have lost its patsy.

Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:First, assuming that Nagell was supposed to get wind of the plot as part of the plot is correct.
I would argue that this could have happened only as a counter intelligence strategy to:
a. To connect Oswald to a fake assassination threat against Kennedy (something different from the plot to kill JFK) in order to blame FPCC by assossiation with Oswald for the possible murder of the US President on orders from USSR and Cuba.
b. To force out KGB and Cuban agents to make themselves known
c. To create confusion and a false sense of reality so the Soviets and Cubans would think
that Oswald was a Pro Castro Communist trying to get JFK instead of Castro. That was Harvey
who was Lee's cover to hide the plan of assassinating Castro, a cover. If somebody got word that an Oswald was involved in a plot to kill Castro, they would have dismissed the idea since their agents would have reported that Oswald was aiming at JFK instead.
Nagell knew of plan that would occur near Washington, not Dallas and to me this indicate that it was an anti-FPCC operation to prove how dangerous they were to National Security.
The question is what would have happened if Nagell had actually killed Oswald, then the plot to assassinate JFK would have lost its patsy.

Well, you post has some interesting thoughts, but consider.....
- how much of what Nagell actually knew he felt he could tell Russell. I'd guess much, but NOT all...he told Russell that, in fact.
- how much of what Nagell's multiple controllers knew they felt they could tell or let Nagell discover...and what they knew of each other...how much of this was a game to find out what alternate intel agencies or alternate groupings within the US Intel agencies knew of one another's plans to kill JFK.
- alternate patsies were already groomed, if the prime one [Oswald] was somehow lost, IMHO.
- Nagell might have seen both Lee's real role and his 'legend/patsy' role - and told some of his handlers one or the other...or he might have only seen one of the two rolls...but I suspect he saw both and realized something was very very 'rotten in Denmark'. IMHO, had he really believed Oswald was about to kill JFK or was part of such a plot, he would have reported that [he may have with no effect] or stopped Oswald somehow. Instead he bowed out of the whole mess...realizing it couldn't be stopped by himself.
- IMO it is clear that Nagell smelled a big fat dirty 'rat'....that he either thought that Oswald was not who he was portrayed to be and/or his controllers were not wearing the white hats and so he 'bowed out' by shooting up the bank ceiling and sitting down, waiting to be put in prison to sit out the events of 11/22/63...as he knew: 1] he too was being set up by someone! 2] following out his orders were contrary to the National Interest and his standing orders prior to the mission. 3] Nothing he did would change the course of events...which were too far along and had alternate ways of achieving its aims...

We will never know what exactly Nagell knew. If he had killed Harvey the Patsy (not Lee, the anti-Cuban black ops agent) then LBJ could not have played the WWIII scenario with Earl Warren.
I forgot to add, that in my opinion, Oswald never went to Mexico, and he was impersonated because:
a. he was too valuable to risk his elimination down there
b. to show that a Soviet Illegal agent was impersonating Oswald to carry out the assassination of JFK
a similar false identity operation as in the Switzerland college.
It is possible that this was a CIA operation that was hijacked by Dulles and his Quakers network, Angleton, Phillips and E.H. Hunt. to turn a counterintelligence operation against the Soviets and Castro
into the assassination of JFK.

David Josephs Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

David - I respectfully disagree, based on more than two decades of researching the "mind control" programmes and personally interviewing dozens of the victims.

In the MK-ULTRA Iceberg thread, I wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

It is my contention that the knowledge to control human behaviour existed originally in the occult and shamanic traditions. All C20th "mind control" programmes have been shown to have studied shamanism. However, it is the occult tradition that first codified these techniques in secret, written, rituals.

The notion that the American mind control programmes were born in response to those nasty commies brainwashing our boys and girls is a propaganda lie, peddled by the likes of CIA "writer" Edward Hunter. The American mind control programmes existed long before the Korean War.

The occult tradition is essentially supra-national. Thulse Gessellschaft, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templis Orientis, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, the high levels of Freemasonry etc respect no national boundaries. Nor do the likes of Mathers, Blavatsky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Crowley.

By the 1930s, British and American intelligence were using dissociative techniques to plant messages deep in the subconsicous of couriers, and then direct them to travel to location x. The secret message was locked behind a hypnotic trigger, and could only be retrieved by a person who knew that precise trigger. For instance, Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University, New York State, wrote of using these techniques in WW2.

As for Manchuria itself, I had long debates with John Bevilaqua, @DPF, about what may or may not have happened in Manchuria and the role of parts of the White Russian community in potentially receiving and using these "Manchurian secrets".

Atsugi had an active MK-ULTRA cell. We know from the history of the mind control programmes that whilst extreme experimentation was undertaken on captive or voiceless communities , eg soldiers, orphans, the most extreme experimentation usually took place in foreign lands.

The Bluebird cafe incident is strongly suggestive of a field test of operational programming on Oswald.

So, if Oswald was a victim of the mind control programmers, I suspect this was before his sojourn to the USSR.

Jim Root has argued that Oswald was enrolled in a deeply compartmentalised "false defector" programme. This is certainly worth considering.

Once in the USSR, it is again entirely possible that Oswald's hospital stay involved the KGB "mind control" experts testing Oswald extensively. We know they were suspicious of him from the start.

If Oswald had been programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma MK-ULTRA model, then the Soviets would have attempted to trigger dissociative states in him.

So what would have happened?

We're now in the territory explored by the likes of researcher Walter Bowart, academic Alan Scheflin and lawyer Valerie Wolf.

Whatever.

Sirhan Sirhan was clearly programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma model.

As a Manchurian Patsy. Not as a Manchurian Assassin.

The real assassins were elsewhere. The Manchurian simply had to be in the right place at the right time, to provide a guilty body for the police to arrest whilst the killers escaped.

This is what the mind control programmes delivered.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

David - I respectfully disagree, based on more than two decades of researching the "mind control" programmes and personally interviewing dozens of the victims.

In the MK-ULTRA Iceberg thread, I wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

It is my contention that the knowledge to control human behaviour existed originally in the occult and shamanic traditions. All C20th "mind control" programmes have been shown to have studied shamanism. However, it is the occult tradition that first codified these techniques in secret, written, rituals.

The notion that the American mind control programmes were born in response to those nasty commies brainwashing our boys and girls is a propaganda lie, peddled by the likes of CIA "writer" Edward Hunter. The American mind control programmes existed long before the Korean War.

The occult tradition is essentially supra-national. Thulse Gessellschaft, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templis Orientis, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, the high levels of Freemasonry etc respect no national boundaries. Nor do the likes of Mathers, Blavatsky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Crowley.

By the 1930s, British and American intelligence were using dissociative techniques to plant messages deep in the subconsicous of couriers, and then direct them to travel to location x. The secret message was locked behind a hypnotic trigger, and could only be retrieved by a person who knew that precise trigger. For instance, Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University, New York State, wrote of using these techniques in WW2.

As for Manchuria itself, I had long debates with John Bevilaqua, @DPF, about what may or may not have happened in Manchuria and the role of parts of the White Russian community in potentially receiving and using these "Manchurian secrets".

Atsugi had an active MK-ULTRA cell. We know from the history of the mind control programmes that whilst extreme experimentation was undertaken on captive or voiceless communities , eg soldiers, orphans, the most extreme experimentation usually took place in foreign lands.

The Bluebird cafe incident is strongly suggestive of a field test of operational programming on Oswald.

So, if Oswald was a victim of the mind control programmers, I suspect this was before his sojourn to the USSR.

Jim Root has argued that Oswald was enrolled in a deeply compartmentalised "false defector" programme. This is certainly worth considering.

Once in the USSR, it is again entirely possible that Oswald's hospital stay involved the KGB "mind control" experts testing Oswald extensively. We know they were suspicious of him from the start.

If Oswald had been programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma MK-ULTRA model, then the Soviets would have attempted to trigger dissociative states in him.

So what would have happened?

We're now in the territory explored by the likes of researcher Walter Bowart, academic Alan Scheflin and lawyer Valerie Wolf.

Whatever.

Sirhan Sirhan was clearly programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma model.

As a Manchurian Patsy. Not as a Manchurian Assassin.

The real assassins were elsewhere. The Manchurian simply had to be in the right place at the right time, to provide a guilty body for the police to arrest whilst the killers escaped.

This is what the mind control programmes delivered.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

Thanks for the wonderful information Jan...

I was trying to state that the Soviet Union was implementing "brain washing" and "mind control" as an accepted method BEFORE the USA. And that much of what was learned by Sidney and others was from the doctors brought to the US after WWII.

The KNOWLEDGE existed for quite long time... the organized use and implementation was, imo, started by the Eastern (China/Russia) countries well before the West.
DJ

http://www.wanttoknow.info/mindcontrol10pg
According to the Central Intelligence Agency's Fact Book, [6] the NSC (National Security Council) and the
CIA were established under the provisions of the National Security Act of 1947.
In December 1947, the NSC held its first meeting. James Forrestal, the Secretary
of Defense, pushed for the CIA to begin a secret war' against the Soviets.
Forrestal's initiative led to the execution of psychological warfare operations
(psy-ops) in Europe. CIA personnel were not opposed to working with Nazi doctors
who had proven to be proficient in breaking the mind and rebuilding it. In some
cases military bases were used to hide these covert activities. It was decided
that the communist threat was an issue that took priority over constitutional
rights.


http://www.tgorski.com/Mind%20Control/hi...ontrol.htm
The earliest historical evidence of mind control techniques can be traced to a practice known as trephining. This practice involves cutting a hole in the skull of a person who is suspected of being possessed by evil spirits. The hole in the skull was believed to release the evil spirits. In some forms of trephining, an instrument was inserted into the skull to scare out the spirit. This procedure was literally an early form of lobotomy. Trephining may be the first historically known treatment for severe mental illness and one of the first psychosurgery procedures designed to change socially unacceptable behaviors. Many trephined skulls have been recovered from civilizations throughout the world giving evidence that trephining was widely practiced by many ancient civilizations

David - thank you for those comments.

The Americans, British and Russians all scrambled to recruit the Nazi mind control doctors as fervently as they sought to recruit the Nazi rocket scientists. However, this was to complement their own extant programmes.

Here's the late, great, Walter Bowart on Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University

Quote:"I can hypnotize a man without his knowledge or consent into committing treason against the United States," boasted Dr. George Estabrooks in the early 1940s.

Book 1994: CHAPTER 4. Operation Mind Control by Walter H. Bowart

"HYPNOSIS COMES OF AGE" by G. H. Estabrooks, PH.D.

There is not space here to detail all the techniques and methods that have received attention from the CIA and others. The basic methodology was revealed decades ago by George Estabrooks - a prominent psychologist under contract to the intelligence services - in his book Hypnotism, first published in 1943. Estabrooks candidly acknowledged that his "main interest has always been the military application of hypnosis." While 'Esty' notes that the "intelligent reader ... will sense that much more is withheld than has been told," there is nevertheless enough information given to construct a fairly accurate picture of the fundamentals of mind control.

What is needed is a subject suffering from what used to be termed Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), and what is now termed Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). This condition can already exist within the subject or can be created by the therapist. In all cases, however, the condition is created by severe trauma - so severe in fact that the traumatic episode cannot be integrated into the experiences of the core personality.

Far and away the most common cause of MPD is early childhood abuse, usually inflicted by a parent or other adult guardian. As Dr. Frank Putnam stated in 1989: "I am struck by the quality of extreme sadism that is reported by most MPD victims. Many multiples have told me of being sexually abused by groups of people, of being forced into prostitution by family members, or of being offered as sexual enticement to their mother's boyfriends. After one has worked with a number of MPD patients, it becomes obvious that severe, sustained, and repetitive child abuse is a major element in the creation of MPD."

When the abuse is of an extreme nature, the natural human reaction is to build a wall around such experiences, so to speak, by creating a separate and distinct personality to deal with future episodes of abuse. Once the core personality is split, it is then possible to control one or more of the alters that have been created, without the conscious knowledge of the main personality. This, according to Estabrooks, creates the 'Super Spy,' willing to follow orders unquestioningly without even being aware that he is doing so.

Estabrooks only alludes to the severe trauma that is required to create a true multiple, often referring to the trauma euphemistically as a form of hypnotism. At one point, he notes that "[multiple personalities] are caused by a form of hypnotism in the first place! We will see that emotional shock produces exactly the same results as hypnotism." Later, he comes closer to the grim reality when he states: "multiple personality could be both caused and cured by hypnotism. Remember that war is a grim business. Suppose we deliberately set up that condition of multiple personality to further the ends of military intelligence."

Elsewhere, Estabrooks acknowledges that he himself had written previously that: "everyone could be thrown into the deepest state of hypnotism by the use of what termed the Russian method - no holds barred, deliberate disintegration of the personality by psychic torture ... The subject might easily be left a mental wreck but war is a grim business." Also noted is that children make especially good subjects, given that they "are notoriously easy to hypnotize." Which is to say, children are particularly vulnerable to abuse and have more of a tendency to dissociate traumatic experiences, thereby creating alter identities that can be later exploited and controlled.

Bowart and I agree that Estabrooks' reference to the extreme "Russian method" is disingenuous.

As does Dr Colin Ross.

There's the transcript of a radio talk by Ross here. It's all good, provocative, stuff.

Ross and a researcher went to Colgate University and managed to find some original Estabrooks documentation which hadn't been destroyed.

Ross talks about it as follows.

(Martin Orne was a lead MK-ULTRA practioner, who later became a key player in the False Memory Syndrome, which was an attempt to discredit the testimony of victims of abuse and of programmes such as MK-ULTRA. See DPF thread here.)

Colin Ross says:

Quote:Martin Orne is tied in to a man named G.H. Estabrooks who was one of probably the top ten leading experts on hypnosis in the 20th Century ... Martin Orne would probably be in the top handful ... G.H. Estabrooks was actually a Canadian by birth, he was a Rhodes Scholar, moved into Upper State New York, and basically spent his professional career in New York at a little college called Colgate College in Hamilton, New York which is not too far from Buffalo. And he published starting in 1943 and going all the way up to 1971 ... very very detailed accounts of creating Multiple Personalities during WWII for various branches of the U.S.A. military. Basically, he called these people Multiple Personalities. He talked about the Multiple Personality literature, and he referred to them as super-spies. The idea is that you create somebody artificially, using hypnosis and other mind control techniques who had no multiple personality before, but now has this second identity. And the second identity is hidden behind a memory barrier, an amnesia barrier, and there is a verbal access code that is used to call out the second identity. So, say this person is a Marine, they will be given some kind of courier assignment to take some documents to ie. Tokyo, but G.H. Estabrooks then calls out the second personality and sticks in some classified information into this second personality. Then there is a switch-back to the main identity, and the person is just going on this routine trip to take documents or technical material over to Tokyo. When he gets to the far end, he uses the example of a Col. Brown who then uses the code signal, and the example he uses in the description is, "The moon is clear." As soon as Col. Brown says "The moon is clear", the second identity pops out, gives the classified message. Col. Brown inserts a classified response, then the person pops back to their regular identity, goes back to the States and thinks they have just gone on a routine assignment. But Estabrooks again says "The moon is clear", the identity pops out, and Estabrooks gets the classified message. He describes using these people in classified courier missions for actual operations, extensively many times during WWII.

W.M. So this is in George Estabrooks's own documentation that he is describing this?

C.R. Right. And he also describes using them for infiltration operations. His idea there is to take somebody who is a loyal, patriotic Marine, and create in him a new identity, of a Communist, and you submerge the previous identity of the patriotic Marine. Now this person who is a created really diehard Communist, goes and infiltrates cells or political organizations and does whatever spy work is required. The idea is that if one of these couriers, or infiltration agents is captured and interrogated, they actually have no idea that they are spies. They generally think they are just on a regular mission, or they generally believe they are Communist, so they can't be interrogated and they can't be made to reveal information so easily. So of course they go in and do whatever infiltration operation is required, and then they come back and they are debriefed by Estabrooks who knows how to get through to the original personality. Some of these people, according to Estabrooks, were actually given dishonorable discharges as part of their cover. One question about that is ... is Estabrooks just telling tall tales? I have been able to build up a lot of documentation about him, and his personal archives are still housed at this Colgate College. I photocopied probably a pile of paper at least a foot deep.

W.M. And what did those documents reveal to you?

C.R. Well, it's all his personal papers, correspondence, background. So I have original documents now photocopies showing that he was employed by the War Department during WWII. He marketed his ideas to every branch of Military Intelligence in the U.S.A. There is tons of correspondence with him and all kinds of Navy, Army, Air Force intelligence people. He did a lot of training at Fort Holobird (?) and other locations. One of the most interesting things about him was that he corresponded pretty regularly with J. Edgar Hoover from the 1930's through to the 1960's. There is a lot of correspondence with Hoover and there were a lot of FBI personnel who came out and visited him and attended his different teachings, and a lot of these people talk about reading his book which came out in 1943, "Hypnotism". In this textbook, he describes these artificial multiple personalities in a lot of detail. I have good documentation that the CIA in Bluebird and Artichoke did pretty much the same experiments. They describe several different things. They don't describe actual operations, but they describe real-life simulations where they are testing these people. They describe the same things that Estabrooks is talking about where they hypnotize somebody, condition a second personality that can stand up to a lie detector test. Also they describe having amnesia barriers and having people go on assignments where they go to another building and rifle through some materials, take some documents and bring them back, and then have no memory of doing this whatsoever. In MKULTRA there was a contractor named Alden Sears who did experiments at the University of Minnesota and the University of Denver which were very similar and there is a lot of documentation of him procuring CIA safe houses for some of his experiments and doing demonstrations with some of these techniques for military and CIA personnel, and creating hypnotic couriers, and so on. So there are several sets of documents that back up that this was done at an experimental level by the CIA successfully. But I don't have documents about their use in operations.

Ameriican mind control research did not begin as a defensive response to Nazi or Soviet brainwashing.

Quote:Ameriican mind control research did not begin as a defensive response to Nazi or Soviet brainwashing.

Would you say US mind control experiments preceded the USSR's? or were a direct result of what the US military sees in Europe/Asia between WWi and WWII's conclusion?

Jan, I was not saying it was a RESPONSE... I was simply stating that the Eurasians were doing this well before the US was even a country... if we are talking history.. USA 237 years, Eurasia 5000+...

While there were bits and pieces in the US the real advances only become known to the US once the work of Luria was included...

Any reason all this information on the US program does not go back to the 20's and
Dr Luria and ultimately to the practical use in a political context...?





bviously this is not the last source on the subject... yet EVERYTHING I've read you post comes AFTER this...
and well after other totalitarian regimes used it for their purposes....
Remember the CIA was put together with Ivy League newbies, ex FBI, ex Mil Int and LOTS OF Eastern Europeans and Eurasians.

And finally, wasn't the USA's answer to find drugs to do the heavy work, as opposed to mind control without it?

Cheers Jan, very interesting stuff
DJ



http://www.tgorski.com/Mind%20Control/hi...ontrol.htm