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+--- Thread: First a rhetorical question and then an observation. (/Thread-First-a-rhetorical-question-and-then-an-observation)
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First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Jim Hackett II - 29-04-2013
Who ordered the 112th M.I.G. to stand down in Dallas November 1963? OK more properly I should phrase it as "Who had the command authority to stand down the 112th M.I.G. telling them another unit will assume your duties to relieve your Group"?
My best answer is that command authority would be J.C.S. (Joint Chief of Staff) level or Cabinet level authority. Reportedly it is codeword level "protected" security.
That was the rhetorical query and my conclusion.
My conclusion is reasonable I think.
Unreasonable is the forced conclusion that some at a very high level of authority were quite disloyal to the selected, elected Chief Executive. From inside his own government someone knew better than the American voters and their President what America needed. What America needed was a Murder.
This conclusion pulled me into a more "let me follow the command authority" of this Conspiracy and consequently away from the trajectories and angles. Shooters are cheap and easy to train given time and easily disposable after the Murders.
I found myself forced into the conclusion that the Conspiracy was from a higher level of power than even the J.C.S and Cabinet level.
Wm. Greer did stop. He did stop for snipers. I tried to excuse him by thinking of incoming fire from the front intimidating his "advance".
No.
NO! His training was to get-the-****-outta-dodge.
Which is the exact training point given to the lowest M/T (motor-transport) driver in reacting to incoming fire. Go! and Go Now! Go and don't block the means of travel (road, trail, creek bed or trackless waste or alternate means) and Oh yeah, beware of mines - today IEDs.
I mean would you slow down? Would you stop under fire? Only if you were in on the Coup or saw "stopping for snipers" as a means to insure personal survival of that Coup.
I have to conclude many disloyal powerful individuals Conspired to strip protection from the President and place killers and weaponry into Dallas.
In the words of Fletcher Prouty: "Very clever planning".
The first query above moved me into Deep Politics and out of the who shot from where and when and how often.
That was an empowering change to me.
Maybe there is another person to read this and wonder: OK, who had the command authority to accomplish the deeds required to kill our President so easily and so quickly?
Maybe they will look wider and deeper into the Coup as I did.
A good thing.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Keith Millea - 29-04-2013
Quote:Who ordered the 112th M.I.G. to stand down in Dallas November 1963? OK more properly I should phrase it as "Who had the command authority to stand down the 112th M.I.G. telling them another unit will assume your duties to relieve your Group"?
Bill Kelly has done research on the military intell.groups in Dallas.I bet he can answer that question.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Gordon Gray - 29-04-2013
I have always felt that Greer's behavior is a key to understanding the scope and "clever planning" of the conspiracy. If he is simply screwing up due too his hangover, and seeing Hill running to the Limo, waiting for him, then the ambush was not so cleverly planned, and barely succeeded. If on the other hand he was responding to a signal from the DSM, then the ambush was elaborate and he was part of a secondary failsafe option, that would insure success.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Jim Hackett II - 29-04-2013
I have more than a few candidates for who finagled the stand down, Max Taylor for one.
But this is only a guess and speculation at best.
My guesses are irrlevant in the face of hard data....
Best Regards
Jim
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - LR Trotter - 29-04-2013
I suppose I will never be able to believe any occupants of the JFK limo on 11/22 would be willing participants in the open car assassination of JFK. But, the first miscarriage of justice was the failure to apprehend TUM and DCM. Without a doubt, those two gentlemen passed along signals. Maybe innocent, but likely not. Maybe "willing" applies to them as well.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Gordon Gray - 29-04-2013
LR Trotter Wrote:I suppose I will never be able to believe any occupants of the JFK limo on 11/22 would be willing participants in the open car assassination of JFK. But, the first miscarriage of justice was the failure to apprehend TUM and DCM. Without a doubt, those two gentlemen passed along signals. Maybe innocent, but likely not. Maybe "willing" applies to them as well.No question about those two. The DSM is seen talking into a radio, and TUM seems to know him. Both make what can easily be interpreted as signals, at a crucial moment in the shooting sequence. The question is who were those signals directed to. I have always thought TUM is a candidate for delivering a flechette tipped with a paralytic agent. This to me is the best explanation for the enigmatic throat wound.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Phil Dragoo - 29-04-2013
As I have had told you in previous letters, the reason you *must* call Novel is that there is a very strong possibility that he is the umbrella man. If you laugh at that and try to tell me that you found the umbrella man, Mr. Witt, I'll laugh right back at you and tell you that farce you put on for the American public didn't fool anyone with his eyes even half way open. In addition to the obviously planned sequence of events and the way in which Mr. Witt surfaced, his umbrella was certainly not the one used in Dealey Plaza. It was the wrong size, had the wrong number of ribs, and was missing the two round white bulbs on either end when folded up.
Best regards,
Dick Sprague
http://scribblguy.50megs.com/takingof11.htm
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Jim Hackett II - 29-04-2013
It was Gov. Rhodes of Ohio that refused to honor Judge Jim Garrison's extradition wasn't it? Kent State Gov. Rhodes buddy of RMNixon?
To a large extent in this present day Novel is reduced to scenery because of the worse "stand-down", the one after the Murder.
The one that stood down RFK's Justice Department and the "MSPress" to lay down as sheep and make sheeple of us all.
Cavalier about Gordon Novel - not for a second. He demonstrated knowledge of guilt.
A second layer of Circumstantial evidence after the fact that the fix was in from a "very high level of power" as Fletcher put it.
Back to the issue of who turned. And at what level of command authority.
Someone above the US Treasury and therefore the USSS went to extremes to do a lot of questionable deeds in around the events of the November Coup.
This was NO Failure of Imagination in that old hackneyed term used since long before Pearl Harbor in 1941 to cover intel and security assets' a**es.
The USSS destroyed motorcade records of the fatal tour when the ARRB asked for them. Indicative term "asked", wouldn't law allow the demand of records for review?
If one takes the Z cartoon as factual, then the evidence is clear to be seriously concerned about the actions of Wm. Greer during the shooting events. By that Ztoon, Greer turns to watch Kennedy being wounded and again a second turn around to watch the President - his sworn protection client- DIE.
Incompetence at the least, complicity probable just on superficial examination of the evidence.
Ah, but we find more out-of-regs deeds by all the USSS agents in the motorcade. Only two (MAYBE two as I doubt Rufus Youngblood did what he was reported to have done by Wm. Manchester), moved or reacted during the murder. Clint Hill and Rufus Youngblood reacted.
No One Else Did.
Whoever acted to negate the normal Security for the Dallas trip KNEW that once the protection is removed the assassination was only a matter of time.
Los Angeles missed,
Chicago missed,
Miami missed,
but Dallas got him.
Wouldn't you think three misses that the USSS knew all about would foul the play by then?
It didn't though did it. The ST got him in Dallas.
I restate: The Secret Team got the President in Dallas,
not that Dallas-the-city-of-hate got the President.
The Murder could have been anywhere.
More than just the USSS was pulled off protection.
MilIntel also were called off by someone.
As Fletcher said "A very high level of power".
His observation fits the events of the file Phil Dragoo attached also.
Jim
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Phil Dragoo - 30-04-2013
Jim
HSCA was run by CIA lapdog Blakey with CIA gatekeeper George Joannides sanitizing for our protection--Jeff Morley is still stonewalled in his FOIA suit for the Joannides files from CIA on the basis of national security--when the deed was the act of one man sans conspirators.
The following is the dog-and-pony show put on for HSCA in re Oswald and CIA or other intelligence agencies featuring Robert E. Jones as Mickey the Dope:
BEGIN EXCERPT
(17) Oswald's military intelligence file.--On November 22, 1963, soon after the assassination, Lieutenant Colonel Robert E. Jones, operations officer of the U.S. Army's 112th Military Intelligence Group Fort Sam Houston, San Antonio, Tex. contacted the FBI offices in San Antonio and Dallas and gave those offices detailed information concerning Oswald and A. J. Hidell, Oswald's alleged alias. (208) This information suggested the existence of a military intelli-
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The committee's investigation revealed that military. intelligence officials had opened a file on Oswald because he was perceived as a possible counterintelligence threat. Robert E. Jones testified before the committee that in June 1963 he had been serving as operations officer of the 112th Military Intelligence Group at Fort Sam Houston, Tex. 33 Under the group's control were seven regions encompassing five States: Texas, Louisiana. Arkansas, New Mexico and Oklahoma. Jones was directly responsible for counterintelligence operations, background investigations, domestic intelligence and any special operations in this five-State area. (210) He believed that Oswald first came to his attention in mid-1963 through information provided to the 112th MIG by the New Orleans Police Department to the effect that Oswald had been arrested there in connection with Fair Play for Cuba Committee activities. (211) As a result of this information, the 112th Military Intelligence Group took an interest in Oswald as a possible counterintelligence threat.(212) It collected information from local agencies and the military central records facility, and opened a file under the names Lee Harvey Oswald and A.J. Hidell.(213) Placed in this file were documents and newspaper articles on such topics as Oswald's defection to the Soviet Union, his travels there, his marriage to a Russian national, his return to the United States, and his pro-Cuba activities in New Orleans.
Jones related that on November 22, 1963. while in his quarters at Fort Sam Houston, he heard about the assassination of President Kennedy. (215) Returning immediately to his office, he contacted MIG personnel in Dallas and instructed them to intensify their liaisons with Federal, State and local agencies and to report back any information obtained. Early that afternoon, he received a telephone call from Dallas advising that an A.J. Hidell had been arrested or had come to the attention of law enforcement authorities. Jones checked the MIG indexes, which indicated that there was a file on Lee Harvey Oswald, also known by the name A. J. Hidell.(216) Pulling the file, he telephoned the local FBI office in San Antonio to notify the FBI that he had some information. (217) He soon was in telephone contact with the Dallas FBI office, to which he summarized the documents in the file. He believed that one person with whom he spoke was FBI Special-Agent-in-Charge J. Gordon Shanklin. He may have talked with the Dallas FBI office more than one time that day. (218)
Jones testified that his last activity with regard to the Kennedy assassination was to write an "after action" report that summarized the actions he had taken, the people he had notified and the times of notification. (219) In addition, Jones believed that this "after action" report included information obtained from reports filed by the military intelligence agents who performed liaison functions with the Secret Service in Dallas on the day of the assassination. (220) This "after action" report was then maintained in the Oswald file.(221) Jones did not contact, nor was he contacted by, any other law enforce-
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The committee found Jones' testimony to be credible. His statements concerning the contents of the Oswald file were consistent with FBI communications that were generated as a result of the information that he initially provided. Access to Oswald's military intelligence file, which the Department of Defense never gave to the Warren Commission, was not possible because the Department of Defense had destroyed the file as part of a general program aimed at eliminating all of its files pertaining to nonmilitary personnel. In response to a committee inquiry, the Department of Defense gave the following explanation for the file's destruction:
1. Dossier AB 652876, Oswald, Lee Harvey, was identified for deletion from IRR (Intelligence Records and Reports) holdings on Julian date 73060 (1 March 1973) as stamped on the microfilmed dossier cover. It is not possible to determine the actual date when physical destruction was accomplished, but is credibly surmised that the destruction was accomplished within a period not greater than 60 days following the identification for deletion. Evidence such as the type of deletion record available, the individual clerk involved in the identification, and the projects in progress at the time of deletion, all indicate the dossier deletion resulted from the implementation of a Department of the Army, Adjutant General letter dated 1 June 1971, subject: Acquisition of Information Concerning Persons and Organizations not Affiliated with the Department of Defense (DOD) (Incl 1). Basically, the letter called for the elimination of files on non-DOD affiliated persons and organizations.
2. It is not possible to determine who accomplished the actual physical destruction of the dossier. The individual identifying the dossier for deletion can be determined from the clerk number appearing on the available deletion record. The number indicates that Lyndall E. Harp was the identifying clerk. Harp was an employee of the IRR from 1969 until late 1973, at which time she transferred to the Defense Investigative Service, Fort Holdbird, Md., where she is still a civil service employee. The individual ordering the destruction or deletion cannot be determined. However, available evidence indicates that the dossier was identified for deletion under a set of criteria applied by IRR clerks to all files. The basis for these criteria were [sic] established in the 1 June 1971 letter. There is no indication that the dossier was specifically identified for review or deletion. All evidence shows that the file was
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reviewed as part of a generally applied program to eliminate any dossier concerning persons not affiliated with DOD.
3. The exact material contained in the dossier cannot be determined at this time. However, discussions with all available persons who recall seeing the dossier reveal that it most probably included: newspaper clippings relating to pro-Cuban activities of Oswald, several Federal Bureau of Investigation reports, and possibly some Army counterintelligence reports. None of the persons indicated that they remember any significant information in the dossier. It should be noted here that the Army was not asked to investigate the assassination. Consequently, any Army-derived information was turned over to the appropriate civil authority.
4. At the time of the destruction of the Oswald dossier, IRR was operating under the records disposal authority contained in the DOD Memorandum to Secretaries of the Military Departments, OASD(A), 9 February 1972, subject: Records Disposal Authority (Incl 2). The memorandum forwards National Archivist disposal criteria which is similar in nature to the requirements outlined in the 1 June 1971 instructions. It was not until 1975 that the Archivist changed the criteria to ensure non-destruction of investigative records that may be of historical value. (226)
Upon receipt of this information, the committee orally requested the destruction order relating to the file on Oswald. In a letter dated September 13, 1978, the General Counsel of the Department of the Army replied that no such order existed:
Army regulations do not require any type of specific order before intelligence files can be destroyed, and none was prepared in connection with the destruction of the Oswald file. As a rule, investigative information on persons not directly affiliated with the Defense Department can be retained in Army files only for short periods of time and in carefully regulated circumstances. The Oswald file was destroyed routinely in accordance with normal files management procedures, as are thousands of intelligence files annually.(227)
The committee found this "routine" destruction of the Oswald file extremely troublesome, especially when viewed in light of the Department of Defense's failure to make this file available to the Warren Commission. Despite the credibility of Jones' testimony, without access to this file, the question of Oswald's possible affiliation with military intelligence could not be fully resolved.
(18) The Oswald photograph in Office of Naval Intelligence files.--The Office of Naval Intelligence's (ONI) Oswald file cantamed a photograph of Oswald, taken at the approximate time of his Marine Corps reduction. It was contained in an envelope that had on it the language "REC'D 14 November 1963" and "CIA 77978." (228) These markings raised the possibility that Oswald had been in some way associated with the CIA.
In response to it committee inquiry, the Department of Defense stated that the photograph had been obtained by ONI as a result of
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The committee's review of CIA cable traffic confirmed that cable No. 77978, dated October 24, 1963, was in fact a request for two copies of the Department of the Navy's most recent photograph of Lee Henry [sic] Oswald. Moreover, review of other cable traffic corroborated the Agency's desire to determine whether Lee Harvey Oswald had, in fact, been in Mexico City. (230)
The committee concluded, therefore, that the ONI photograph of Oswald bearing a reference to the CIA, was not evidence that Oswald was a CIA agent. Again, however, the destruction of the military file on Oswald prevented the committee from resolving the question of Oswald's possible affiliation with military intelligence.
(19) Oswald in Mexico City.--The committee also considered whether Oswald's activities in Mexico City in the fall of 1963 were indicative of a relationship between him and the CIA. This aspect of the committee's investigation involved a complete review both of alleged Oswald associates and of various CIA operations outside of the United States. (231)
The committee found no evidence of any relationship between Oswald and the CIA. Moreover, the Agency's investigative efforts prior to the assassination regarding Oswald's presence in Mexico City served to confirm the absence of any relationship with him. Specifically, when apprised of his possible presence in Mexico City, the Agency both initiated internal inquiries concerning his background and, once informed of his Soviet experience, notified other potentially interested Federal agencies of his possible contact with the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City. (232)
Conclusion
Based on the committee's entire investigation, it concluded that the Secret Service, FBI and CIA were not involved in the assassination. The committee concluded that it is probable that the President was assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. Nothing in the committee's investigation pointed to official involvement in that conspiracy. While the committee frankly acknowledged that its investigation was not able to identify the members of the conspiracy besides Oswald, or the extent of the conspiracy, the committee believed that it did not include the Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, or Central Intelligence Agency.
END EXCERPT
There is also James Powell who was present with camera but not officially doing anything. The records routinely and conveniently destroyed--as with Secret Service records. No milint records, no Secret Service records, no CIA records--and 26 volumes of FBI records, none relevant, all frame-friendly.
Horne's Clifton AF 1 tape version contains LeMay's aide trying to contact the general--who would effectively rule the Bethesda autopsy.
Our friend from Army intelligence spoke darkly of Kennedy as "very dangerous"--consider the military bookends of the Kennedy presidency:
At the outset the Berlin Wall is a testament to his powerlessness, while the Bay of Pigs invasion was a CIA device to demonize him in the eyes of the militarized Cubans and their milint handlers: a ready-made army of willing assassins sitting on go.
The missile crisis leaving the military leadership and its deep intelligence policy agents (Rusk, McNamara, Bundy) deeply dissatisfied.
The finality of NSAM 263 nullified by NSAM 273 signed after the president was entombed, a curious paragraph 4 counseling against "retribution"--for what.
Who had the power to place the Dulles Commission at the vanguard of the coverup--not Johnson or Hoover. Acheson.
The Unspeakable absorbed the president's constitutional authority and rendered it impotent.
That little Kennedy. . .he thought he was a god.
Oswald, run by Phillips, Banister; files by Angleton; to Russia for ONI; passed to DeMohrenschildt and Paine by CIA Domestic Contacts J. Walton Moore.
Identified by DRE under Joannides and 112 MIG.
Joannides is still sealed a half century after the murder by lone nut.
McCord and Phillips. "Tell them it would expose all that Bay of Pigs business"
Effective noon tomorrow you'll have Ford in this office making GHW Bush DCI to sanitize the witness list.
You won't have Nixon to kick around--he's joining LBJ and Hoover in the excavated ranks of the terra cotta warriors.
First a rhetorical question and then an observation. - Jim Hackett II - 30-04-2013
Thus writ Phil:
"There is also James Powell who was present with camera but not officially doing anything. The records routinely and conveniently destroyed--as with Secret Service records. No milint records, no Secret Service records, no CIA records--and 26 volumes of FBI records, none relevant, all frame-friendly.
Horne's Clifton AF 1 tape version contains LeMay's aide trying to contact the general--who would effectively rule the Bethesda autopsy.
Our friend from Army intelligence spoke darkly of Kennedy as "very dangerous"--consider the military bookends of the Kennedy presidency:
At the outset the Berlin Wall is a testament to his powerlessness, while the Bay of Pigs invasion was a CIA device to demonize him in the eyes of the militarized Cubans and their milint handlers: a ready-made army of willing assassins sitting on go.
The missile crisis leaving the military leadership and its deep intelligence policy agents (Rusk, McNamara, Bundy) deeply dissatisfied.
The finality of NSAM 263 nullified by NSAM 273 signed after the president was entombed, a curious paragraph 4 counseling against "retribution"--for what.
Who had the power to place the Dulles Commission at the vanguard of the coverup--not Johnson or Hoover. Acheson.
The Unspeakable absorbed the president's constitutional authority and rendered it impotent.
That little Kennedy. . .he thought he was a god.
Oswald, run by Phillips, Banister; files by Angleton; to Russia for ONI; passed to DeMohrenschildt and Paine by CIA Domestic Contacts J. Walton Moore.
Identified by DRE under Joannides and 112 MIG.
Joannides is still sealed a half century after the murder by lone nut.
McCord and Phillips. "Tell them it would expose all that Bay of Pigs business"
Effective noon tomorrow you'll have Ford in this office making GHW Bush DCI to sanitize the witness list.
You won't have Nixon to kick around--he's joining LBJ and Hoover in the excavated ranks of the terra cotta warriors."
{end QUOTE} ======================================
It is easy for me to visualize Curt Lemay gloating at the military post mortem of our former President. Smoking a good havana cigar? Maybe a tampa copy?
Time has brought me to the conclusion that as John Judge said, no matter who fired weapons with whatever ammunition, the bullets came from the Pentagon.
I no longer hold any doubt that the "whole-bay-of-pigs-thing" is in fact the murder of the President translated into Nixon/Spookese.
I thank Jeff Morley for forcing into public view (if one bothers to know) the continuing cover-up of Joannides' deeds.
It ain't national security being protected. Not in DCI GHWBu$h's time, not today. Not in a crime of one mad-man.
National Security is only the rubic of cover-up. Continuing Cover-Up I should say.
And that makes me angry still.
We know what the National Security apparatus did and have ample proof for an empowered Grand Jury to be selected, except for the "apparatus" of control, the overarching National Security Apparatus acting in the interest of itself and not WeThePeople. Right Mr. Blakey?
And not in Texas grand jury inquiry either, I guess.
Gaeton Fonzi said the HSCA was the 'Last Investigation' and it was another cover-up.
That cannot be allowed. DCI Bu$h 'this will not stand'.
Jim