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+--- Thread: TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified (/Thread-TSBD-Rifle-Wrong-Length-Alleged-Shipment-Unverified)
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TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Nick Rose - 13-01-2014
Found this extremely interesting page with information that is new to me:
http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/rifle.htm
* Shows the order form allegedly used to purchase the rifle,
details (with images) how the item # used to purchase the rifle was for a 36" rifle,
and yet the rifle found in the TSBD is a 40" rifle
* Shows, in thorough fashion, that the carton containing alleged murder weapon is wholly unaccounted for in shipping \ import manifests
and shows quite damning proof that the specific carton was the *only* carton not verified prior to shipping
* Shows the company did not even offer to mount a scope on their 40" rifle, but only on the 36" rifle
* Shows that Oswald's time sheet clearly indicates he was working when the money order was time stamped at the post office
* Shows the MO was not even sent from the post office it was purchased at, but in an adjacent postal code
(again, sent at a time where Oswald's time sheet clearly shows he was at work)
* Shows several inconsistencies regarding the money order itself, and the sales records from Klein's
* Shows WCH testimony that indicates rifle expert was aware that rifle had never been fired
* Shows evidence of possible discrepancy of location of strap mounts on rifle
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - David Josephs - 13-01-2014
Let's take it a step further Nick...
WHEN did KLEINS and the FBI create the phony order form and shipping documents?
The FBI arrived at Kleins and was taken to the microfilm which housed the orders from that time period...
One would think that by printing any other order from this film that had a C20-T750 ordered - we'd know exactly what they shipped, as well as what was ordered when they shipped a 40" rifle...
They even have a photo of the intact film and box... yet when My friend John Armstrong went to the Archives and requested to see this micro film in the early 90's...
the film was no longer in the box...
If you look at the order numbers compared to HIDELL's order 270502, we see that there are a few hundred orders PRIOR to Hidell and a handful AFTER...
It would have been easy to confirm what rifle was shipped for the 36" TS rifle ordered - and thereby confirm what HIDELL was shipped...
by not doing so, it suggests highly that what the FBI tells us about that order is simply not true.
Let also mention that the only thing connecting THAT rifle to HIDELL is Waldman's handwritten notation of "C2766" and "VC836" and the word of the FBI...
One final straw Nick... here is the BYP rifle compared to the NARA rifle... funny they don't appear to be the same at all....
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5657[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5656[/ATTACH]
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Albert Doyle - 13-01-2014
I had a long debate about this with the trolls on You-Tube. Martha Moyer and Gil Jesus pretty much showed that the 100 crate of 36 inch Carcanos and their cardboard cartons weighed precisely what the Lifschultz invoice showed. It would make sense that those cardboard cartons would weigh about ? pounds. Not only that but it would be unlikely the 40 inch C2766 Carcano would be mixed-in with an order of 36 inch carbines since the extra 4 inches would stick out in the crate and create a shipping problem.
It appears CIA picked out the rifle from the New Jersey warehouse where the cheap Italian rifles originally ordered for general distribution for necessary insurgencies found their way into the commercial market.
.
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Magda Hassan - 13-01-2014
Some good threads on the rifle previously posted here.
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?39-Oswald-Never-Took-a-Rifle-Into-the-Depository-Evica-Makes-the-Case
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?37-Evica-on-the-Carcano-Oswald-Never-Possessed-the-Rifle
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Nick Rose - 13-01-2014
All interesting points, David.
The only thing I would note, based on the notion that what Oswald was saying during interrogation often turns out to be true (history seems to have proven him right that the backyard photo was faked, exactly as he said even - with his arrest photo, etc) ... would be that I don't think "Hidell" was shipped ANYthing. I'm pretty sure Oswald outright denied owning a rifle in those interrogation notes.
Unless you have some reason to suspect that ANY part of the paper trail in that order process is legitimate.
Seems from Gil Jesus' page that all those documents are either faked (the MO was never cashed, the order certificate is for the wrong item, etc) ...
although I am confused on some of the specifics, and also am not quite sure I get at what Doyle is suggesting in his post (though I appreciate both of your replies greatly) ...
If the whole order was faked by the conspirators, AND the order item # is for the incorrect gun (36" instead of the 40" found) i'm not sure I understand the implication in those pages of the matched shipping carton not being accounted for. What I assume is implicated is that the conspirators made off with that box direct from the shipper so they could frame LHO ... but if so, why did they plant the wrong gun? [that carton should have contained a 36" rifle, correct?]
Does anyone have a beautiful enough mind to fully explain what they believe may have occurred here?
Am I overthinking or otherwise being dense about this?
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - David Josephs - 14-01-2014
Nick...
take yourself away from the KLEINS situation for a moment and decide how would a rifle found at a crime scene be connected to a person and leave a paper trail since in TX at that time most every 5 year old is given a rifle which is easily found for cash most anywhere... While every rifle purchase would leave a trail, a cash purchase at any store/surplus/etc would have left much less a trail than the HIDELL orders.
NEXT is to match the person ordering/receiving the rifle with the identification provided on the order itself... If OSWALD did fill out the coupon, how did they get him to do it using HIDELL ??
Or it was filled out by LEE with the intention of implicating him from the start.
The rifle found is neither the one ordered or the one photographed in the BYP...
All I can come up with is the sheer arrogance of the players who knew that OSWALD would be killed and the COVER-UP would be in place... I personnally do not think the attention to detail here was all that important since the conclusion was foregone... I swear there are times I believe that a person could have walked up to the limo and hit JFK with a bat and OSWALD would have still been framed for it. The FIX was in...
It was either that or it was supposed to fall apart and implicate Castro/USSR... I think much of THAT evidence was quickly discarded once the LONE NUT conclusion was accepted.
------
A rifle is found...
C2766, a 6.5mm M91/38 FC, a 40.2" Italian carbine
WHO, in all the US, sells these WWII surplus rifles whose identification was supposedly ground off by the contracted gunsmith in Italy... the ONLY shipment not ground off contains C2766.
Yet this weapon is traced to Klein's Chicago (object of the Dodd Mail order weapons investigation whereby weapons are ordered under aliases and then when shipped/rec'd, checked for legality.)
EVERY ad from March 1962 thru Feb 1963 uses the SAME item # and SAME description...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5659[/ATTACH]
The order is for C20-T750
The actual weight of the rifle was 6lb 6oz - the shipping order for 100 rifles weighed in at 750 lbs. The FC rifle weighs 7lb 7oz... each carton for each rifle was about .5lbs and each 10 cartons were in one 5lb shipping container...
100 FC rifles at 7lb 7oz each is already 750 lbs without the shipping cartons... 100 at .5 = 50 lbs and 10 containers at 5lbs = 50lbs... Carton weight about 100lbs
100 TS rifes weighs just under 650 lbs... which batch of rifles do you think were sent?
Honestly do not know why that one carton of 10 rifles was not checked off... we MAY conclude it never arrived, or arrived and didn't get checked since the weight would have been quite a lot less with only 9 cartons.
But I do not think THESE rifles and C2766 have much to do with each other... CE2562 discusses another 700 rifles sent to yet a different Store in Chicago where one has the seriel #2766 - according to the FBI.
This illustrates the FACt that many more rifles and sopurces for those rifles were available other than KLEINS which the FBI did nothing near due diligence to discover...
More later
DJ
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Albert Doyle - 14-01-2014
I sort of winged it in my last post. According to this site 100 carbines would be 660 lbs.
Edit: Before I massacre this any more than I have, my re-reading of the Lifschultz evidence shows the Carcanos were shipped ten to a "carton". They probably alternated the rifles in rows so they would interlock. There were ten cartons with ten rifles in each making a total of 100. If there was no outer wooden crating then the cartons would be about 9lbs each which is perfectly reasonable.
This site says the 40 inch Carcano rifle weighs 7.6lbs per, which means 100 rifles alone would be 10 pounds over the weight listed on the invoice:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/carcano9138/specifications.asp
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Peter Lemkin - 14-01-2014
One can't get a rifle sent to that or any P.O. Box, anyway. It's like a child's puzzle of can you find the 100 things wrong with this picture. I think the details, while interesting, are not important - once you get to the point that the whole thing was faked backwards temporally.
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - Albert Doyle - 14-01-2014
Yes, but the good thing about this data is deniers like Von Pein are always shouting for evidence. Well there's your evidence in hard numbers. It would make sense that 66 pounds of carbines would be contained by 9 pounds of cardboard box. The numbers add up and there's no room for any 40 inch rifles in those written-in-stone invoice numbers. Like the brain evidence, this is hard prima facie proof.
As is usually the case, this could have been solved by simply questioning the Carcano shippers to see if they would mix-in a carton of 40 inch rifles with a 100 order of 36 inch carbines. I'm confident the answer would be 100% NO because the extra 4 inches in the 40 inch carton would become a snagging point during shipping and cause damage. Besides, the invoice weight numbers add up for a uniform 36 inch carbine lot of 100. This obvious lack of curiosity by FBI is condemning and is actually the hardest "evidence".
.
TSBD Rifle Wrong Length, Alleged Shipment Unverified - David Josephs - 14-01-2014
Albert - just to be clear and EXACT...
it is not 7.6 lbs... it is 7lbs 6oz... which is LESS than 1/2 lb... the total without boxes or cartons (and they used both) would be 700lbs and 600ozs which equals 37.5lbs so BY THEMSELVES the rifels weigh less than 750lbs
Yet go to http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-17997/Corrugated-Boxes-200-Test/8-x-4-x-46-FOL-Side-Loading-Corrugated-Boxes-200-lb-test and see that the lightest box weighs 1.15lbs
100 of those is over 100 lbs and then the carton that holds 10 rifles each - 10 of those adds another 30-50 lbs yet we are still pushing 900 lbs for the larger FC rifle and about 750 lbs for the shorter TS rifle.
----
I have a question... between March 1962 and FEB 1963 - when C20-T750 referred to a 36" scoped rifle... which rifles were they shipping their customers?
THEY CANCELLED THEIR "TS" ORDER from JANUARY 15, 1962 on April 13, 1962 and did not receive the replacement order of rifles until Feb 21 1963.
For almost a year KLEINS advertises this rifle - gunsmiths at Kleins tell us they only scoped 36" rifles
Waldman tells us that order was shipped with the Scope attached
did Kleins EVER have M91/38 TS rifles?
MORE IMPORANTLY - the replacement order of rifles IS NOT THE SAME TYPE OF RIFLE FOUND IN THE TSBD... this is just now dawning on me...
The reorder EFFective 4/13/62 was ordered in different handwriting and in a completely misleading manner...
" Beretta
Terni M91/38 EFF
4/13/62"
Beretta and Terni are Manufacturers of the MC, not models... as shown below, all three of the MC "sub-styles" were built in Beretta... mentioning "TERNI" on the next line holds no meaning at all for the order or fulfillment... There is not way to know within the batch of surplus rifles WHERE the rifle was made unless it remained stamped onto the rifle... yet one did not order rifles by manufacturing location...
The "91TS" rifle originally ordered COULD have been for a 91TS as shown below - as opposed to the M91/38TS which was the actual rifle's item #.
This Kleins order appears to have little if anything to do with the rest of the paperwork other than to connect to the Lipschultz shipment od Feb 21.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5669[/ATTACH]