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+--- Thread: Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? (/Thread-Did-jfk-have-a-collapsed-right-lung)
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Bob Prudhomme - 18-06-2014
Dr. Carrico - "Breath sounds were diminished, especially on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around the tracheal wound."
Dr. Perry - "At that point the trachea (windpipe) was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and I found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea."
Dr. Perry - "I noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum."
Dr. Jenkins - "Dr. Peters - because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax - put in a closed chest drainage chest tube."
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Drew Phipps - 18-06-2014
That is what pneumothorax means, although the mediastinum specifically doesn't include the lungs. Displacement of the mediathorax by virtue of a collapsed lung would be unlikely to affect the location of the trachea. Pneumothorax can also occur as a result of recessitation efforts, so it might be important to know if the doctor noted this prior to recessitation efforts, or during them. After re-reading the above, only Dr. Jenkins could have been describing something that was observed before the initiation of lifesaving efforts.
For what its worth, the autopsy doctors specifically found that the bullet to the back at the T3 vertebrae did not pierce the thoracic cavity but bruised the pleural membrane as it passed by, which finding would seem to exclude a traumatic cause for a collapsed lung (Keep in mind the relative inexperience of the autopsy doctors). There is some x-ray evidence that there was a fracture to one of JFK's thoracic vertebra near the spine, but this too could have been caused by the close passage of a bullet. If fractured, a bone fragment tossed downward might have pierced through the chest wall and led to a pneumothorax.
One of the more interesting finds made by the autopsy doctors is that the entry hole in JFK's back measured 6 mm by 4 mm, which is too small to have been made by a (round) 6.5 mm bullet.
Interesting catch, though. If the first bullet had pierced the lung, it is highly unlikely to have exited the body through the throat. The lung does extend above the clavicle briefly, so you might get a puncture if the bullet was just in the right place, but a more or less straight line wouldn't lead from back to lung to throat. It might explain JFK's gesture to his throat, if he was having trouble breathing.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Bob Prudhomme - 18-06-2014
FWIW, Drew, displacement or deviation to one side of the trachea is universally diagnosed in the medical world as being a result of trapped and accumulating air pressure in the pleural cavity surrounding the lung on the side away from the deviation. This condition, known as a tension pneumothorax, can develop on its own in a patient or can be caused by (or made worse by) pressure ventilation during resuscitation attempts. Often, in bullet or stab wounds, the lung will also be compromised and unable to inflate during respiration. In these cases, the compromise (hole) in the lung is also the source for the air trapped between the pleural lining and the lung.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Drew Phipps - 18-06-2014
"tracheal deviation" isn't the same thing as "tracheal displacement".
Edit:
My bad. I read displacement in your first set of quotes. Displacement is more commonly associated with disease than trauma
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Bob Prudhomme - 19-06-2014
Clearly, it appears the bullet that struck JFK's back actually entered his right lung. If this was a 6.5mm FMJ bullet, travelling at over 2000 fps when it struck JFK, it puzzles me as to why it did not exit JFK's chest. The only reason I can think of is that the bullet was a soft point or hollow point bullet; both of which are designed to expand, lose energy and come to a stop inside their victim.
I have never accepted the myth that the bullet only penetrated JFK's back an inch or so.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Drew Phipps - 19-06-2014
Bob:
A soft or hollow-point or other such round has much to recommend it. Small fragments from one round might pierce the lung, bruise the pleural membrane, break a thoracic vertebra. It is even conceivable that a tiny fragment of the bullet could exit the neck and leave an exit "crater" the size of the original entrance wound. I would think that there would be even more damage inside the chest than has been reported
Do the autopsy note go into any specific details about the trachea? It has always bothered me that there was only 1 hole in the trachea. A transiting object (in either direction) would leave 2 holes in the trachea unless the transit was so small and at such a tangent to cross the trachea in a continuous tear; a bullet fragment (or possibly a bone fragment from the thoracic vertebra) would have to be pretty small and travelling almost at right angles to the presumed TSBD bullet path to leave a single tear in the front. It is difficult to see how a (full sized) bullet arriving more or less from the front would only leave a single hole in the trachea.
Do you think that a soft-point or hollow point bullet would be consistent with JFK's head wound and a rear entry as well? (I realize this speculation is going to raise some hackles around here. Let's just explore the possibility.) From Autopsy: "The metallic fragments visualized within the right cerebral hemisphere fall into two groups. One group consists of relatively large fragments, more or less randomly distributed. The second group consists of finely divided fragments, distributed in a posteroanterior direction in a region 45 mm. long and 8 mm. wide." That Australian private detective guy with the $60 book says its a Secret Service round from the rear (I didn't buy the book).
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Bob Prudhomme - 21-06-2014
Soft point or hollow point bullets do not always break apart into tiny fragments, especially the soft points. And, strange as it may seem, a hollow point bullet does not have to hit bone to make it open up and expand. Hollow points actually depend more on hydraulics for their performance. As a hollow point passes through liquid and tissue at high velocity, the cavity at the nose of the bullet "collects" fluid and flesh, and this matter builds up incredible pressure inside the nose of the bullet, causing the tip of the bullet to open and expand.
As far as JFK's head wound is concerned, I believe he may have been hit in the head with two bullets; one bullet just to the right of the EOP (rear entry) and one on the temple somewhere. I am still open to the possibility of a shot from the South Knoll that would have struck JFK in the left temple. There is medical evidence from Parkland indicating this as a possibility.
I just re-read this and realized I should point out the relevance of the first paragraph. If we used this information and applied it to a head shot or a lung shot from a hollow point bullet, it is not hard to see that, in either instance, a hollow point bullet would have a good chance of not exiting the head or chest cavity at all. This is, in fact, my experience using hollow point bullets for hunting. This is also the reason police use them in urban areas. The hollow point bullet has tremendous stopping power, and stays in the person you are shooting; rather than exiting the other side of the person and going on to injure others.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Drew Phipps - 21-06-2014
You know that there was one guy in Dallas that the FBI found that sold WCC ammo reloaded with the soft-point hunting load, right? Nobody ever said anything about this guy (or anyone else in Dallas) loading hollow point ammo into MC WCC cartridges, but if he had the gear to load a WCC cartridge with a soft-nose bullet, he could have made hollow point loads too.
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There's our bullet dealer in the middle. John Thomas Masen.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Bob Prudhomme - 22-06-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:You know that there was one guy in Dallas that the FBI found that sold WCC ammo reloaded with the soft-point hunting load, right? Nobody ever said anything about this guy (or anyone else in Dallas) loading hollow point ammo into MC WCC cartridges, but if he had the gear to load a WCC cartridge with a soft-nose bullet, he could have made hollow point loads too.
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There's our bullet dealer in the middle. John Thomas Masen.
Yes, in 1963 he was the sole proprietor of Masen's Gun Shop in Dallas, TX. He is still alive and the gun shop is still in business. I have politely made several attempts to communicate with Mr. Masen in the last few years but, sadly, he has shown no interest.
One of the questions I wished to ask Mr. Masen, perhaps the only question, is what brand of soft tipped bullets he was handloading into the WCC cartridges, as it would not be until 2004 that the first hunting bullets of the proper .268" diameter were made. The next question would be, was it necessary for him to re-size the WCC cartridge neck smaller, to .264", to accept the hunting bullets, or were they a snug fit? An answer from Mr. Masen on this matter could help to confirm the WCC cartridges were indeed loaded with .264" diameter bullets, as we have determined.
Did jfk have a collapsed right lung? - Drew Phipps - 22-06-2014
He'll be 74 in August.