+- Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora)
+-- Forum: Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: JFK Assassination (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-3.html)
+--- Thread: The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong (/thread-14558.html)
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - David Josephs - 07-03-2016
At Jim's suggestion I am writing a piece on the evidence related to the 7.65 Mauser and the timing in finding "the" rifle that becomes the murder weapon when I notices something about the boxes in the 6th floor museum photo....
It's missing the column which was removed to facilitate photographs later in the day... and makes it much harder to sit and use that corner and half open window
Imagine that bottom image with a column of boxes there...
You can even match up the large stamps on the sides of the boxes...
Just another "goes to show ya" moment for me...
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Drew Phipps - 07-03-2016
Maybe there are more rows of stacked boxes between the camera and the window. So the "missing column" you label in the sniper's nest photo could be a gap in a different row of stacked boxes than the row you labeled 1-5 or 1-6. The row that has 6 "box columns" in the 1963 photo might be off camera to the left. So the current museum layout could indeed be wrong, but we can't tell if that affects the space in the sniper' nest (because they won't let us go back there and look).
Don't you think that the white box visible below the label "missing column" could be the same white box that peeks over the top between stacks numbered 3 and 4? There is clearly at least one other stack of boxes behind the row you numbered.
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Alan Ford - 08-03-2016
David Josephs Wrote:At Jim's suggestion I am writing a piece on the evidence related to the 7.65 Mauser and the timing in finding "the" rifle that becomes the murder weapon when I notices something about the boxes in the 6th floor museum photo....
It's missing the column which was removed to facilitate photographs later in the day... and makes it much harder to sit and use that corner and half open window
Imagine that bottom image with a column of boxes there...
You can even match up the large stamps on the sides of the boxes...
Just another "goes to show ya" moment for me...
Remarkable attention to detail there, Mr. Josephs.
Question: given the photo layout of the three boxes closest to the window, At that particular angle, if one could widen the space field, Does that angle correspond with a shot down Elm Street or across Elm toward Main?
Add the missing column mentioned, and perhaps a lefty had a chance to aim, squeeze and fire, but a righty would be hard pressed to train his sights upon a target moving away from him with the column hindering his movements in that tight area.
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - David Josephs - 09-03-2016
Alan Ford Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:At Jim's suggestion I am writing a piece on the evidence related to the 7.65 Mauser and the timing in finding "the" rifle that becomes the murder weapon when I notices something about the boxes in the 6th floor museum photo....
It's missing the column which was removed to facilitate photographs later in the day... and makes it much harder to sit and use that corner and half open window
Imagine that bottom image with a column of boxes there...
You can even match up the large stamps on the sides of the boxes...
Just another "goes to show ya" moment for me...
Remarkable attention to detail there, Mr. Josephs.
Question: given the photo layout of the three boxes closest to the window, At that particular angle, if one could widen the space field, Does that angle correspond with a shot down Elm Street or across Elm toward Main?
Add the missing column mentioned, and perhaps a lefty had a chance to aim, squeeze and fire, but a righty would be hard pressed to train his sights upon a target moving away from him with the column hindering his movements in that tight area.
The black arrow on the ground in the middle image was put there by Sheriff Deputy Mooney:
I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there that is when I saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. And, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. Whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, I don't know. But, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from.
So, at that time, I didn't lay my hands on anything, because I wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints.
Mr. BALL - If I make an arrow on that, would that indicate it?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. There is another picture I have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but I didn't see that opening at that time.
Mr. BALL - That is the opening through which you squeezed? And it is an arrow shown on Exhibit 508. (image above is CE508)
The "opening" he didn't see cause it was not there until the boxes were moved for photographs later in the day
Thanks for the kind words Alan -
here are the images from the window. the position he would need to be in makes it amazingly difficult to shoot that far down Elm. Notice too the boxes
DAY claims that by this time the boxes were moved yet he also states that the next picture is taken now that he knows the shots were on Elm, not Houston.
One has to wonder why take a photo with the boxes in the wrong place, looking down Elm or for any reason at all... the crime scene had changed repeatedly...
CE509 and CE724 are of the same configuration of boxes. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0265b.htm
this is CE509 - given that DAY acknowledges the boxes have been moved, what does this photo serve to prove? (ps - all these photos and not one of the paper bag supposedly laying right next to those pipes)
Mr. DAY. This was made, 724 was made, some 15 to 20 minutes after 722 when I received information that the shooting actually occurred on Elm rather than Houston Street. The boxes had been moved at that time.
Mr. BELIN. In 724 there are boxes in the window. Were those boxes in the window the way you saw them, or had they been replaced in the window to reconstruct it?
Mr. DAY. They had simply been moved in the processing for prints. They weren't put back in any particular order.
CE722 & 724
While they claim certain things were moved and other weren't and then moved later but not until photos were taken... we have no real idea what it looked like other than from the Dillard and Powell photos, which I find very hard to decipher.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 733 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. DAY. This is the southeast corner of the sixth floor at the window where the shooting apparently occurred. The boxes in front of the window, to the best of our knowledge, in the position they were in when we arrived there on November 22, 1963.
The column of boxes which closes in the area and made Mooney squeeze thru the opposite end is not there. I suggest reading this for an amazingly clear presentation of the info http://www.manuscriptservice.com/SN/snipersnest.pdf
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Chris Davidson - 09-03-2016
Alyea
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Alan Ford - 09-03-2016
Taking Sheriff Mooney's following words into consideration, we are left to wonder who staged the scene he experiences? How many assassins in their haste to leave the scene would linger behind, losing precious time to escape to build a virtual gauntlet in the interior and exterior of their lair??????
No doubt an actual shooter wants to be hidden before the deed, but after the deed is done, it's stage right, beep-beep! no time to structure a phantom sniper's nest...
Sheriff Deputy Mooney: I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there...
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - David Josephs - 10-03-2016
Alan Ford Wrote:Taking Sheriff Mooney's following words into consideration, we are left to wonder who staged the scene he experiences? How many assassins in their haste to leave the scene would linger behind, losing precious time to escape to build a virtual gauntlet in the interior and exterior of their lair??????
No doubt an actual shooter wants to be hidden before the deed, but after the deed is done, it's stage right, beep-beep! no time to structure a phantom sniper's nest...
Sheriff Deputy Mooney: I went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and I saw all these high boxes. Of course they were stacked all the way around over there. And I squeezed between two. And the minute I squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there...
And the shooter is also supposed to have taken a rifle with him, loaded ready to fire, all the way across the 6th floor, unheard, only to take the time to hide it - right where he could encounter someone coming up the stairs, like a cop, with a gun - and could use that last bullet the most.... or simply play dumb and be let go?
As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.
The again, whoever put the rifle there could do so from those back steps and leave virtually unnoticed save the creaking of the old stairs.
Alan - Alyea's story about Fritz - if true - would fit exactly into place with all the other broken chains of custody. Try to follow those 3 shells now... see where they lead.
& Why in the world would Mooney "squeeze into" a crime scene instead of secure it for the DPD Crime Scene Investigation Team.
There sure were an awful lot of Decker's Deputy Sheriffs for a group that was not going to participate overtly in the protection of the President.
Mr. MOONEY - I would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase.
Mr. BALL - Did it work with a push button?
Mr. MOONEY - It was a push button affair the best I can remember. got hold of the controls and it worked. We started up and got to the second. I was going to let them off and go on up. And when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. So I looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then I went up the staircase myself. And I met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and I believe they were deputy sheriffs. They were coming down the staircase. But I kept going up. And how come I get off the sixth floor, I don't know yet. But, anyway, I stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor I was on.
yet he doesn't seem to have a problem with names - and he STILL does not name Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/wiseman.htm *
Mr. MOONEY - I didn't see any at that time. I assume there had been other officers up there. But I didn't see them. And I begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows---some of them were open over on the south side.
And I believe they had started laying some flooring up there.
I was checking the fire escapes. And criss-crossing back and forth. And then I decided--I saw there was another floor. And I said I would go up. So I went on up to the seventh floor. I approached Officers Webster and Vickery. They were up there in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. So we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. We didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. We said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. And so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. And I later found out that probably Officers Boone and Walters had gone after lights. I heard that.
*Name of Compaintant Assassination Of President Kennedy
Offense
John Wiseman, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date Nov 23, 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's Office at 505 Main Street, Dallas** when the President passed and the car went around the corner and a few more cars had passed when I heard a shot and I knew something had happened. I ran at once to the corner of Houston and Main Street and out into the street when the second and third shots ran out. I ran on across Houston Street, then across the park to where a policeman was having trouble with his motorcycle and I saw a man laying on the grass. This man laying on the grass said the shots came from the building and he was pointing to the old Sexton Building. I talked to Marilyn Sitzman, 202 S. Lancaster who said her boss, Abraham Zaprutes, RI 8 6071, had movies of the shooting. She said the shots came from that way and she pointed at the old Sexton Building. I ran at once to the Sexton Building and went in. I askes some woman how many doors lead out of the building and she said 4. I left the building and found some DPD patrolmen and we came back to the building. I ran up the stairs and the patrolman started trying to get more help to search the building. I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside with a gate type hook latch. I stopped and started back down the stairs taking a quick look on each floor. I met more officers on the 2nd floor and then in a few minutes the place had maybe 50 officers in it. A better search was started floor by floor. About the time we got started on the 5th floor, Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney found some spent hulls. An officer of the Dallas Police Department told us all to get on one side of the room and make one clean sweep of the entire floor to see if we could find the rifle. As we worked our way across the room which was filled with boxes, we got to the front stairway when Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boon said, "here is the gun". It was about 4 feet in front of me in the aisle in which I was working. Deputy Boone stayed at one end of the aisle where the gun was spotted and I stayed at the other end of the aisle so that nothing would be touched. Officer Day of the DPD Crime Lab came and took pictures of the gun in its hiding spot behind the boxes and then moved it from this spot. I then left the building and came back to the Sheriff's Office to talk with witnesses. A Mrs. Mary Moorman was in the office with a picture of the President getting shot.**http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WTKaP.html
When They Kill A President
By Roger Craig
[TABLE="width: 560, align: center"]By Roger Craig
[TR]
[TD]
Summary
Roger Craig was a Deputy Sheriff in Dallas at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy. He was a member of a group of men from Dallas County Sheriff James Eric "Bill" Deckers office that was directed to stand out in front of the Sheriffs office on Main Street (at the corner of Houston) and "take no part whatsoever in the security of that motorcade." Once he heard the first shot, Roger Craig immediately bolted towards Houston Street. His participation in the formative hours of the investigation during the rest of that day and into the evening included observations and experiences that would have singlehandedly destroyed the entire Warren Commission fairy tale before a grand jury or a Congressional investigation.
[/TD][/TR]
[/TABLE]
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Chris Bennett - 10-03-2016
David, I presume you've seen this interview with Thomas Alyea from 2013?
There are some really good quotes in there from his remembrance of the day. I wonder if anyone has seen his unpublished manuscript?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/tv-cameraman-filmed-aftermath/article_a5ead74b-5892-56af-acc6-aad37483cd7f.html
---
In what he calls "the sixth-floor scam," Alyea described a chaotic investigation that didn't exactly go by the book but was later "cleaned up" in official reports.
---
Alyea has long insisted that, contrary to officials reports, the chicken bones were found on the fifth floor, not the sixth.
Either way, the sack obviously had been there for days, with the bones completely dried out, Alyea said.
"They had absolutely nothing to do with anything," he said. "I took a close up, just in case they turned out to be important, but they weren't."
---
More significant to him, detectives moved boxes around while searching the building, even disturbing the sniper's nest itself, Alyea said.
The boxes were restacked before other journalists got access to the building, but they weren't put back exactly the same way, he said.
One box originally was tilted on the windowsill, where Oswald apparently rested the rifle on it to help him aim, Alyea said.
Later photos show the box sitting upright, suggesting a slightly higher angle for the fatal shot, he said.
The police also restacked other boxes higher and closer together,making the sniper's nest almost completely hidden, he said.
In fact, as the boxes were originally arranged, Oswald could've been seen from much of the sixth floor, had anybody else been there, Alyea said.
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Chris Davidson - 10-03-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:Alyea
The position of the "rifle perch" boxes in the Alyea frame, in relationship to the snipers nest, is very important.
Beginning equation:
26"-16"=10"
chris
P.S Since most people didn't appear to grasp the 48fps equation applied directly to the zfilm at circa z161, I'm not holding my breath with this introduction, either.
The Sniper's Nest Corner boxes in the 6th floor Museum are wrong - Chris Davidson - 10-03-2016
Eventually, it may lead you back here.
chris