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+--- Thread: A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? (/thread-6826.html)
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Vasilios Vazakas - 28-06-2011
Some years ago I watched an X-Files episode that showed Cigarette Smoking man' shooting Kennedy through the opening of the storm drain on Elm St. It was quite an exotic and fascinating theory and for a moment I was really excited about it. I have not heard it before so I decided to find out if there was any reference to the drain among researchers.
And yes, long before Chris Carter, researchers had discussed this theory. I read about early researcher Penn Jones who was a firm believer of this scenario. He claimed that
The shooter escaped through the drain system and ended up under the jail basement. He even claimed that "One year I crawled up all the way to the jail. It wore out the knees of my britches. You have to be a little bitty fellow to turn around down there"
View the link below to read his statement
http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php?id=69417
Besides Penn Jones you ve got people like Robert Harris who believe that the fatal head shot originated throught the drain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE
Then I watched the documentary "The men who Killed Kennedy" where Tom Wilson explained his theory of photonics to prove the same thing. Another researcher Brazil crawled in the drain and said that he was able to escape through the pipes after 20 minutes to Trinity river. Unfortunately Brazil did not show any footage, photographic or video to prove that he managed what he claimed.
There are other notable researchers who share the same belief.
On the other hand we have the researchers who find this scenario not only ridiculous but improbable. They claim that the President would not have been visible from the storm drain until the limo rolled west another 54 - 56 feet past the fatal head shot location. The proponents of the theory answer back that the layers of asphalt have been added through out the years and the opening was twice as wide then than today.
They also add that the Z film has been altered and the fatal shot occurred further down near the steps. Not to forget the 1964 FBI re-enactment that showed that the 3rd shot happened near those steps.
The problem is that no matter what their claims no one has proved that they can crawl down through the pipes. Jerry Dealey published the following article "Giving the Dealey Plaza Sewer troll a lift"
http://www.dealey.org/sewtroll.pdf
In his articles proves that the pipe from the storm drain has a pipe of 15" diameter leading towards the pipes on Main St. to join a 24" pipe east of the junction/30" west pipe in the center of main St. Another 15" pipe from the drain was heading towards the TSBD and a 12" pipe to the storm drain near at the north end of the overpass.
He proved that it was impossible for a man to crawl through the drains since it was not possible to fit in the pipes. Add to this the morning rain, it would make the task more difficult.
If Brazil insists on the opposite he should provide us with photographic evidence, and if any one has witnessed Penn Jones to achieve what he claimed, please step forward.
To quote Fox Mulder, "I want to believe" (I can see Seamus laughing). However I have not seen the evidence and as Carl Sagan said, "extra-ordinary claims, require extra-ordinary evidence".
Unless they had rebuilt the whole drain system afterwards and we do not know it.
It is more likely that the shot originated from the storm drain near the north end of the overpass although we did not see any pickets missing. It is possible that the shooter was standing above the drain under the trees not inside the drain.
Other experts like Al Carrier and Sheryl Gutierrez believe that the head shot originated from the south end of the overpass.
There is also a chance that a shooter was standing on the Elm St. grass (north or south) and had a gun hidden inside a camera. A similar weapon was to be used against Castro in Chile but the plan did not materialize.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Peter Lemkin - 28-06-2011
I and a few others here on this Forum knew Jack Brazil. He has not been heard from in some years and I wonder if he is OK or still alive? He was not as small as Penn Jones was [who I also knew]. I am not aware of proof that either traveled through the system, but believe when they attempted to, they were not alone, so believe there are or were witnesses. I also, personally, trust both of them. It is possible that the system was changed on purpose, along the lines of the extra asphalt. My last thought is that it is not necessary to go very far: the nearest exit was only a few tens of yards away, just behind the fence and one could stay inside until dark and then exit or have a conspirator park their truck over the manhole and escape then.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Bernice Moore - 28-06-2011
Hi Peter;
IF you read my information i posted on the thread on the drains you will find a report on Jack and his men's actions in Dealey,by, the writer's name is gone right now, sorry, yes they went through the drains, coming out at the mouth of the sewer opening, their day was all filmed by a Dallas TV channel and was shown on telly, that night in Dallas,there was that proof, at that time, but if the tape still exists, could not be found out, when researching, at that time..the only now, is the few photos that exist.. some years back when i got into this, i tried to find him, there was no luck, Rich even scouted around some, i believe, but i have never heard anything back...though i have posted the information within the thread and that message on several jfk research boards over the years, i , we ,were after the maps at the time, as it was said he had such...fwiw...below him or his man coming out of the drain..at the mouth.the Nith River..there is also a short report on the sewer systems , the diameters etc at the time, made by a city report, within, i found posted by the other Museum at that time, from the newspaper.. they were all updated and changed, made smaller.....best b.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Bernice Moore - 28-06-2011
Magda; could you please find the link to the drain, sewer thread , i thought it was in the photos area, but cannot find it, there were quite a few photos posted along with it, it was a fairly longish report in the thread...thanks much for your time..best b
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Seamus Coogan - 28-06-2011
One of the first encounters I had on DPF when I rejoined was a bit of back and forth with Bernice and Greg B on the issue. Gregs mellowed a bit since when he first went that way but I found Bernice was at me with a hatchet. Fair enough I had been a bit hard on GB lol.
Anyhow.
Bernice made some interesting points. I think in terms of playing safe on the storm drains were definitely a possible escape route in particularly those the overpass. So I have to say Peter and Bernice have something there IMO. I'm interested when they did change the size of the pipes on the overpass. That's interesting.
Its likely not the one on Stemmons/Elm street. There's no photographic evidence evidence there what so ever from a headshot at all. Bob Grodens had some good old fashioned looks around and finds it implausible I'll go with him. On the shooter angle.
I'm donning my armour, and awaiting the Canadian onslaught rofl!
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Charles Drago - 28-06-2011
Vasillios,
Al Carrier is an important if elusive source of information. I know of him only from his now-discontinued presence on another forum -- the one I refer to as the Disinformation Bazaar.
I cannot make even a preliminary judgment as to the veracity of Mr. Carrier's many intriguing posts. I have followed leads offered therein, one of which proved quite revealing and thus valuable. But my defenses remain up.
Are you in touch with him and/or are you aware of public postings by Mr. Carrier within the past three years or so?
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Vasilios Vazakas - 28-06-2011
Hi Charles
I am not in touch with him, i have never exchanged info with him. I have read some of his posts in education forum and i think in jfk lancer forum. Somehow i am very interested to hear more of his views on the micro-analytical part of the assassination.
In one of his education forum posts talks about the canyon shoot and his belief that the head shot originated from the south end of the overpass, i am sure you have read it. I wish he could join this forum and elaborate further on his theories. If i remember well he also believes that the shooters came from the far east.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Jan Klimkowski - 28-06-2011
There's a discussion of the sewer shot hypothesis in the thread here.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - John Kelin - 28-06-2011
Human curiosity being what it is, it's only natural to wonder where various shooters were in and around Dealey Plaza. They had names, faces, and backgrounds, after all.
But with all due respect...the sewers, the picket fence, the railroad bridge, Dal-Tex, TSBD, etc etc...really aren't all that important. The shooters were just mechanics and any number of Soldier of Fortune types could have done the job, from a number of viable locations.
Too much of this case has become mythologized.
In my humble opinion, of course.
A shot through the Elm St. Storm Drain: Myth or Reality? - Charles Drago - 28-06-2011
Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:Hi Charles
I am not in touch with him, i have never exchanged info with him. I have read some of his posts in education forum and i think in jfk lancer forum. Somehow i am very interested to hear more of his views on the micro-analytical part of the assassination.
In one of his education forum posts talks about the canyon shoot and his belief that the head shot originated from the south end of the overpass, i am sure you have read it. I wish he could join this forum and elaborate further on his theories. If i remember well he also believes that the shooters came from the far east.
It's my understanding that Mr. Carrier has permanently withdrawn from the JFK wars --or at least their public manifestations.
In terms of the "Far East" -- You're likely referencing Laos, Pakse Base, and the so-called Team 5 with "Leon."
I will not go further in discussing Mr. Carrier's research; it is complex and as problematic as it is fascinating. He may be a VERY good guy, or a VERY bad guy, or something oddly in between. But it would be patently unfair and unwise of me to write anything else about him absent his presence here -- which, by the way, would be quite welcome here regardless of his true motives.