"Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Printable Version +- Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora) +-- Forum: Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-1.html) +--- Forum: Political Assassinations (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-4.html) +--- Thread: "Dr. Mary's Monkey" (/thread-4514.html) |
"Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Magda Hassan - 17-02-2012 If I recall correctly Frank Olsen's area of expertise was in methods of aerial dispersal. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Ed Jewett - 17-02-2012 As noted, I don't suggest I am an expert on the topics, but the more recent posts beg the question: Was this incident in France the proof-of-concept or early predecessor for chemtrails? "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Peter Lemkin - 17-02-2012 Here, I think all are in the realm of speculation. I don't believe there is any certain evidence of the precise method of dispersal in the French village. One can eliminate some as not likely dispersing to the entire village, but that still leaves many which could: aerosols, water supply, some food that everyone ate, some item that everyone touched, and other more exotic ones. I'd even guess that if one were to search, one would find other towns that were tested with whatever drug it was. It does have LSD-like symptoms of very large doses, but it may have been LSD, an somewhat similar analog, or a mix of LSD with other chemicals. They often used cocktails of drugs. As to the idea that 'they' wouldn't think to harm a friendly population in preference to potential harm to an 'unfriendly' nation, remember that a bacterium was released from [I believe it was a light bulb that was thrown down and broken] in the NYC subway system to see how quickly and far it would spread. The CIA officially said that the bacteria was harmless, but I remember reading that many people became ill from it!!! How many and how much and if any died is classified, and was not comprehensively collected independently. However, some patients, families, victims and doctors did note strange cases just after the incident and remembered this when the news of the 'trial' was made public many years later. Just to mention, there are many positive or potentially positive uses of LSD in psychiatry, addiction, depression, mental or physical pain fighting when nothing else works [cancer, end of life (Aldous Huxley, Tim Leary and many others famously took a 'trip' at the end of their lives)], and others. Currently, a number of organizationsincluding the Beckley Foundation, MAPS, Heffter Research Institute and the Albert Hofmann Foundationexist to fund, encourage and coordinate research into the medicinal and spiritual uses of LSD and related psychedelics. Some Universities also have permission to do experiments still. Of course, it is still used recreationally. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Adele Edisen - 17-02-2012 Jan, You said Quote:Adele - thank you for your thoughtful answer. If you read my post as an attack on yourself and Peter, I can assure you that it was not intended as such. Sorry, I misunderstood. It was your word "unscientific" which threw me off, thinking I had criticized you for questioning aspects of the case, which I knew I had not done. Quote:My critique of Albarelli's hypothesis about the Pont St Esprit incident is based around the Scientific Method, and a consideration of how the Pont St Esprit events fit into the context of illegal human experimentation. The experiments on humans done by the Nazis, MKULTRA, used tools and technologies developed from scientifkic knowledge, but many of their purposes were not Humanitarian, Moral, or Ethical. The LSD story of effects on a group of unwarned villagers reminds me of our own use of the Atomic Bomb on the cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, without any warning of any kind. It was an Act of War on an enemy. It may have been possible that some of the French politians and Intelligence/Military people were knowledgeable about this "expeiment". In the case of Pont-St.-Esprit which occurred in 1951, I can't be sure when, but the CIA purchased pounds of LSD from Sandoz, all they had, and it may have been enough to cover the village and then some. Perhaps someone here could find out the year of purchase. We didn't want the Russians to get it. I recalled something about Robert Heath, who put deep electrodes ito human brains, particularly schizophrenics. This probably started as an attempt on his part to find the cause of that mental disease. When he was an intern at a hospital and assigned to ambulance duty (in those days there no Emergency Mwedical Technicians at all, so doctors, interns, and residents rode on the ambulances). One night when he was on duty, a call came in about a man who had gone beserk at his home and needed to be hospitalized. It was his own father! Adele "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Peter Lemkin - 17-02-2012 I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 10th power - 10,000,000,000 = ten billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA? "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Magda Hassan - 17-02-2012 Peter Lemkin Wrote:I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 9th power -1,000,000,000 = one billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA? Judging from some of the hair-brained operations and policies which have come out of the CIA and the executive branch I'd say they've put it in the water coolers. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Peter Lemkin - 17-02-2012 Magda Hassan Wrote:Peter Lemkin Wrote:I see 1953 cited on internet as date CIA purchased 10KG! from Sandoz, but that could well be an untruth to hide the date, or simply mistaken. 10Kg [22 lbs] would provide tens of millions of doses!...many more [10 to the 9th power -1,000,000,000 = one billion mild doses]! Where did it all go?! Is it still held by CIA? I had made a mistake [and corrected it above]...it was 10 x my first calculation - enough for a very strong trip for every human on the Planet at the time. It couldn't have all been used, unless simply destroyed and I doubt that! Of course, perhaps some brave souls could have been given, say, a gram for a very strong trip.....I'm sure they still have not come down from! "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Jan Klimkowski - 17-02-2012 All - thank you for continuing this thread in a constructive and thoughtful fashion. Here are some criteria that a scientist would presumably consider in designing a a covert, classified Secret, experiment to test the ability of a chemical or biological substance to affect human behaviour: i) Means of administering the substance effectively to ensure the test subject is genuinely affected (and is not experiencing a placebo effect). ii) Ability to record the dose of the substance to which the test subject is exposed at various times. iiii) Ability to monitor and record the reactions of the test subject throughout the time they are exposed to the substance. iv) Ability to ensure that the experiment remains covert, and that the subjects of these Secret tests are not able to reveal their existence. Now, known LSD experiments on POWs, prisoners in federal institutions, children in orphanages, soldiers, sailors and airforce personnel, all get a tick in each of the four categories. Indeed, we can now see once classified films of soldiers struggling over army obstacle courses, and LSD test subjects in clinician's rooms, because the "MK-ULTRA" nexus recorded many of these experiments: firstly, to review and analyse the impact of the drugs at leisure, once the experiment had finished; and secondly, to provide training and informational films once the substances were close to operational field use. How about Pont St Esprit? I would give a Fail mark in categories i) to iii), as there was zero ability to control and measure dosage, the means of delivery is a matter for speculation but could not have ensured reliable or guaranteed exposure to LSD, and monitoring and recording of the impact on individual test subjects accurately over a period of time would have been very difficult. With regard to iv), I am yet to be convinced that France, in 1951, was a logical or likely choice. The risks of this grossly unethical secret experiment being exposed were much higher than in a controlled American colony such as Panama or Costa Rica, or a conquered enemy power such as Germany, Austria or Italy. If the LSD came from Sandoz, technicians from Sandoz were used in the experiment, and it was felt the experiment had to take place close to Swiss labs, then why not use a German or an Italian village? The French were "our allies". The following passage is from the 1977 Church Committee: Quote:MKULTRA was the principal CIA program involving the research and development of chemical and biological agents. It was "concerned with the research and development of chemical, biological, and radiological materials capable of employment in clandestine operations to control human behavior." [11] Now, I'm still perfectly prepared to consider the Pont St Esprit hypothesis, and Albarelli may be correct. I also believe that the narrative published by the Church Committee was almost certainly a limited hangout by the military-industrial-intelligence complex: ie they put the best spin possible on crimes against humanity. However, there is always a timescale for developing, testing and learning the positive and negative effects of a new drug. This is simply how it is. The official narrative strongly suggests that it was difficult for the "MK-ULTRA" nexus, in its early Bluebird/Artichoke incarnation, to get much LSD, and it was initially tested primarily for its usefulness as an interrogation tool: ie a truth serum. Here is the official three phase process (of course the line about "voluntary human subjects" is entirely incorrect, and "institutions" means prisons, orphanages, military bases etc). However, the order of events does have a logical structure: The research and development of materials to be used for altering human behavior consisted of three phases: first, the search for materials suitable for study; second, laboratory testing on voluntary human subjects in various types of institutions; third, the application of MKULTRA materials in normal life settings. MK-ULTRA was created in 1953. The Pont St Esprit incident happened in 1951. So, if Pont St Esprit is part of the "MK-ULTRA" nexus, we are talking about a predecessor programme such as Bluebird or Artichoke. However, it still feels very early in terms of (covert) scientific knowledge of LSD to be conducting a mass field trial. If Pont St Esprit was an LSD field test on hundreds of humans, then it can only have been to assess its power as an incapacitant. But why would you need to test this on a village in the territory of an allied power? Surely, it would be much better to run a military training exercise at one of the CBW bases like Dugway Proving Grounds or Fort Detrick, with Blue and Red teams, and then secretly feed the Red team a measured dose of LSD in their cornflakes just before the exercise began. Such an experimental design would tick all four of my categories above. In my judgement, Pont St Esprit fails all four criteria. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Jan Klimkowski - 17-02-2012 From Gordon Thomas' 1988 memo to Eric Olson, son of Frank Olson (see full memo in my post #64 in this thread). William Sargant was one of the scientific leaders of the British version of "MK-ULTRA": Quote:Time and again Dr Sargant expressed the view that, from all he had learned from the M15 and his own contacts in Washington, there was a strong prima facie case that Frank Olson had been murdered. Sargant believed that Frank Olson could also have been given a cocktail of drugs that included more than LSD. He said he knew that Dr Gottlieb had been researching into slow-acting depressants which, when taken, could drive a person to suicide. Gordon Thomas' account seems entirely plausible to me. The claim that, in the early 1950s, "expendable SS men" were being used in terminal behaviour modification and drug experimentation by British and American intelligence, at classified sites such as Porton Down (the British centre for top secret CBW research), is completely credible. It is also completely believable that some of the lead researchers would have possessed a moral conscience, and would have sought to blow the whistle on such experimentation. And for such integrity, these moral researchers would have been "suicided" and their deaths, when exposed, used as part of the official narrative covering up these crimes against humanity. "Dr. Mary's Monkey" - Peter Lemkin - 17-02-2012 Jan, thay had truckloads full of exacting information on subjects under all kinds of conditions, knowing age, health status, means of administration, naive or not to what to expect, mixes of drugs, dosages, etc. They may have just wanted to see what would happen in 'real world' chemical attack on a population [where one can't control much of anything]. If they did it [and I believe they did], they would have had persons to record the reactions/effects hidden about. That real world reaction might have been all they cared about - not careful dosages, who got what/where and maybe even how. Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rather 'messy' experiments, as well....I can name others. |