Daniel Gallup Wrote:

Gordon Gray Wrote:It seems to me that the main reason the Dallas doctors didn't see a larger wound was because they didn't reflect the scalp. It seems reasonable to accept Dr. Aguilar's explanation that Jackie cradling the President's head pressed the hair and scalp in place so that only the blow out in the rear was apparent to the Dallas doctors. If we take the Newman's literally then the shots that came directly behind them would have come from the pergola to the left of Zapruder's pedestal. They would have struck at a right angle and most likely exited from the left side of the head. Why would it have been necessary to conceal the fact that there were multiple shooters? As long as Oswald was shown to be one of them and he was connected to Castro, wouldn't it have been supposed that the others were too? This would seem to me only to increase the suspicion of a team of Castro agents being responsible. The LN scenario wasn't the initial aim of the plan, the false flag Castro operation was.

Gordon, correct me if I am wrong, but I see three flaws in Dr. Aguilar's explanation. First Humes reports that the area "chiefly parietal but extending somewhat into the occipital" was devoid of scalp and bone. The Dallas doctors missed this wound completely. Second, let us suppose that a great quantity if skull and brain matter was lost to this area, but the scalp remained somewhat intact and Jackie did her part of keep that part of the head as close to natural as possible. That a man of Kemp Clark's credentials would then not be able to discern the loss of bone and brain in that area of the skull (I assume we are talking about the area Boswell marked "missing') is utterly incomprehensible to me. Third, it is precisely this area where Humes uttered before the FBI and everyone else in attendance that surgery had been done to the top of the skull. With all due respect to Dr. Augilar, I believe he is grasping at straws, and missing the far clearer picture of fraud in the evidence.

Gordon Gray Wrote:

Daniel Gallup Wrote:

Gordon Gray Wrote:It seems to me that the main reason the Dallas doctors didn't see a larger wound was because they didn't reflect the scalp. It seems reasonable to accept Dr. Aguilar's explanation that Jackie cradling the President's head pressed the hair and scalp in place so that only the blow out in the rear was apparent to the Dallas doctors. If we take the Newman's literally then the shots that came directly behind them would have come from the pergola to the left of Zapruder's pedestal. They would have struck at a right angle and most likely exited from the left side of the head. Why would it have been necessary to conceal the fact that there were multiple shooters? As long as Oswald was shown to be one of them and he was connected to Castro, wouldn't it have been supposed that the others were too? This would seem to me only to increase the suspicion of a team of Castro agents being responsible. The LN scenario wasn't the initial aim of the plan, the false flag Castro operation was.

Gordon, correct me if I am wrong, but I see three flaws in Dr. Aguilar's explanation. First Humes reports that the area "chiefly parietal but extending somewhat into the occipital" was devoid of scalp and bone. The Dallas doctors missed this wound completely. Second, let us suppose that a great quantity if skull and brain matter was lost to this area, but the scalp remained somewhat intact and Jackie did her part of keep that part of the head as close to natural as possible. That a man of Kemp Clark's credentials would then not be able to discern the loss of bone and brain in that area of the skull (I assume we are talking about the area Boswell marked "missing') is utterly incomprehensible to me. Third, it is precisely this area where Humes uttered before the FBI and everyone else in attendance that surgery had been done to the top of the skull. With all due respect to Dr. Augilar, I believe he is grasping at straws, and missing the far clearer picture of fraud in the evidence.

I think Humes' description is somewhat ambiguous, and it's at odds with the autopsy photos we have seen, which do not show substantial scalp or bone missing from the parietal or occipital region. Is there any doubt he has been loess than truthful in both his report and testimony? As some one who has witnessed scalp reflected at an autopsy I am not surprised that bone could be missing once it was reflected, but not obvious to an observer viewing before it had been reflected. Unless Dr. Clark made a careful examination of the head palpitating it with his hands, I doubt he would have detected this, given the presidents thick head of hair. Is there any report he made such an examination? As to the surgery to the top of the head remark, had it been done by Humes himself it makes little sense that he would announce this to everyone present. What other witnesses reported seeing this?

David Josephs Wrote:Daniel... imo you have a very good grasp ofwhat occurred that night from the "it's gotta work in the REAL world"mentality.

I think there may have been too much either/or with regards to Horne andLifton...

IF:
- the body was removed from the casket during the swearing in ceremony (to aman/women they say they were TOLD to come up for the swearing in.. everyone)
- it was moved at this time to the forward galley under the front of the planeand worked on, there would be ample time to perform ALL the work that seems somewhatimpossible on the timeline at Bethesda.
- it was removed via the front right door and flown by helicopter to Bethesda(or Walter Reed)... those that worked on him in the plane MAY have left himlooking as he did when Connor, Humes, Boswell and Ebersole see him at 6:45
- Humes is correct that he first saw the body at 6:45 NOT 7:35 as he claimedearlier... what was going on until the 8pm "final" arrival of JFK'scasket? (with regards to O'Connor, I canonly find the HSCA write-up, not the actual testimony…. I don't think the 8pm time is what heactually says)

The "surgery to the top of thehead" comment ... when do you suppose this occurs?

We KNOW that this occurs AFTER Jackie/Bobbyare upstairs, the ambulance is out front with the casket and is driven aroundto the back where Sibert/O'Neill/Greer/Kellerman - using a dolly - move thiscasket into the anteroom.. the FBI covers it's butt by saying they were alwayswith the body... they did NOT see the open casket at 7:20, they did NOT go intothe Morgue until after 8pm.

Yet at the same time we KNOW Humes does notsay this prior to 7:20.. the way the FBI report is written, they try to make itappear this happens right after the sheets are removed for the first time… at8pm… yet our FBI boys are careful not tobe too specific on THAT time.

In 1964, no one knew about the FBI/SS casket entry except the four men and themorgue participants at the time and they either were not called or did not talk… Kellerman comes out of the morgue door tomeet them! But again, we don't know this at this time.

Mr.KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in Bethesda, because that iswhere I looked him over.
Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.
Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to yourconclusions on the shots which you have already testified about--
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK.
Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your observationsof the four wounds on President Kennedy.
Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpiredin the morgue of the Naval Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large woundthis size.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5 inches;would that be approximately correct?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portionof the head.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes

Mr.KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air ForceBase, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the bodyfrom the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people whofollowed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews tothe U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delayon the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had theirstaff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were allthere. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as Isaid, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertakerpeople 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judgeoffhand that they worked on theautopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours(interesting choice of words)


Sibert's corrected affidavit:
When the motorcade from the airport arrived at the Naval Hospital,
BobbyKennedy and Jackie Kennedy were let off at the Administration Building.
O'Neill and I helped carry the damaged casket into the autopsy room with
some Secret Service agents.(this is corroborated by all four men)

….eitherO'Neill or I was present in the autopsy room with the exception of whenphotographs and X-Rays were taken, at which time everyone other thanradiologists and photographers were asked to leave the room.


Now, at whatpoint in time did everyone leave the morgue for xrays and photographs?

FBI Report:
All personnel with the exception of medical officersneeded in the taking of photographs and X-Rays were requested to leave theautopsy room and remain in an adjacent room.
Upon completion of X-Rays andphotographs, the first incision was made at 8:15 p.m

16 xrays and in 15 minutes? (thecasket arrived "officially" at 8pm…)
Of course not… Reed/Custer/Ebersole were in the morgue with the body since 6:45… takingxrays. Reed/Custer are asked to leavefor 15-30 minutes… and they STILL have timeto take half dozen xrays and develop them.
=========
So back to the question at hand… IF some of the alteration is done crudely inthe belly of AF1 as Lifton suggests… Humes was presented with a body that evenHE realized was a "contradiction"… hemust have been given the "helping National Security" carrot with thecourt-martial stick not far behind. I amsaying that Kellerman goes to see Humes/Boswell/Ebersole in the Morgue whilethey are looking over the body… andexplains what will happen, "xrays to find bullets"…. "Dr. Humes, three shots/two hits to JFK fromthe back is what happened… one bullet hit JC"… "now do a two-shots-from-the-rearautopsy".

Commander HUMES - Thephotographs, to go back a moment the photographs and the X-rays were exposed in the morgue, of the Naval Medical Center onthis night, and they were not developed, neither the X-rays or the photographs.They were submitted to the, and here, if I make a mistake I am not certain, toeither the Federal Bureau of Investigation or to the Secret Service, I am notsure of those

WHAT??

Reed sees a saw.. Finck tells us no saw was used so once again, thismust occur prior to 8:30, prior to 8pm, and prior to the xrays… so 7-7:15?

Reed tells us that he and Custer are asked to leave right after thebody is placed on the table… they return15-30 minutes later and begin taking xrays…. Could Humes et al have done anything to the wounds in 15-30minutes? I don't think it's out of therealm of possibility…. Given the onlyway he is even looking at JFK is via a clandestine trip from Andrews to theMorgue….


Either way as a Dr., Daniel What are his choices? Humes sees what happened and says his famousline… and is summarily ignored byeveryone. The 3 inch, small orange sized hole in theoccipital is now most the entire head… yet if you are right, he never sees the 3 inch hole but the busted uphead…

(side note: CE399 which smashes a rib and a wrist whiletraveling thru 2 people comes out pristine… the SAME BULLET from the SAME RIFLEsupposedly created a round, beveled entrance that Finck identifies and summarilydisintegrates leaving clouds of particles 4-5 inches above the entry hole… nice trick)

Add now Saundra Spencer and the B&W autopsy photos she saw… she claims that not a single photo shedeveloped is in the Archives autopsy collection AND that the photos that are inthe archives is NOT THE SAME PAPER as was used at the Naval Photographic Centerin 1963. (Sandra had prints she did 10days prior to the assassination images and says the NPC bought an entire run ofKodak print paper which was cut to size and use for ALL PHOTOGRAPHIC PRINTING WORKduring that period)

Also.. she does not see the postMortician body as the 3 inch hole is shown in the back of his head… themorticians inserted rubber and sealed it all up and said that laying on thecasket pillow, NONE OF THE DAMAGE WOULD BE SEEN.

Conclusion...
There is simply no way the wounds are anywhere near the same between Parkland and Dallas.... the xray discussed in my last post proves this... There is no FRONTAL BONE there unless the xray is oriented incorrectly.

Humes, Boswell and Ebersole do have 15-30 minutes with which to do SOMETHING with the wounds if need be.
"No Gross Skeletal abnormalities" - are all the images and xrays of JFK?

DJ

Albert Rossi Wrote:David, that's a provocative superposition. I wonder, though, why the edge of what would be the contour of the occipital in the traditional interpretation of the X-ray cuts through the hair/neck on the photo.

Here is a pre-mortem lateral of JFK (from Fetzer, ed., Assassination Science, p. 159), presented as part of Mantik's original study of optical density. The contours look very similar to the autopsy X-ray.

https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4906&stc=1&d=1372201568

Sorry for the rotten reproduction ... my scanner is crappy.