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+--- Thread: FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK (/thread-12354.html)
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - John Lewis - 12-09-2014
Michael Cross Wrote:John Lewis Wrote:Edit: the file you posted was just the tolerance sheet. The specification sheet is here - the groove dimension is denoted as the Z value under 'Barrel'
Thanks again, but again, that's not the spec sheet for the Carcano, so the conclusions you're drawing, if they come from the linked document, are baseless. And the file I previously posted was the one you linked in post 107.
*edit: typo.
Correct, that isn't the spec sheet for the cartridge which the Carcano fires. You are, however, missing the point and have lost track of why this spec sheet was linked to.
Bob said that any 6.5mm rifle with a .268" groove diameter was incapable of being accurate with a .264" bullet.
I said that I had such a rifle, in 6.5x54, and that such dimensions (bore and bullet) were correct for it. Bob called me a liar.
The CiP documents proove that a .264" bullet fired through a .268" barrel are the norn. If they are the norm it means they are acceptable from an accuracy perspective.
If the CiP say that a .264" bullet can be fired through a .268" barrel then Bob 's whole thesis collapses.
JL.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Michael Cross - 12-09-2014
John Lewis Wrote:Michael Cross Wrote:John Lewis Wrote:Edit: the file you posted was just the tolerance sheet. The specification sheet is here - the groove dimension is denoted as the Z value under 'Barrel'
Thanks again, but again, that's not the spec sheet for the Carcano, so the conclusions you're drawing, if they come from the linked document, are baseless. And the file I previously posted was the one you linked in post 107.
*edit: typo.
Correct, that isn't the spec sheet for the cartridge which the Carcano fires. You are, however, missing the point and have lost track of why this spec sheet was linked to.
Bob said that any 6.5mm rifle with a .268" groove diameter was incapable of being accurate with a .264" bullet.
I said that I had such a rifle, in 6.5x54, and that such dimensions (bore and bullet) were correct for it. Bob called me a liar.
The CiP documents proove that a .264" bullet fired through a .268" barrel are the norn. If they are the norm it means they are acceptable from an accuracy perspective.
If the CiP say that a .264" bullet can be fired through a .268" barrel then Bob 's whole thesis collapses.
JL.
I have to agree with Bob that you are purposely providing disinformation. Bob has clearly been working to provide information about the Carcano that is in evidence as the Oswald rifle - not ANY 6.5 rifle as you say. The entire point of his research is to determine if the rifle in evidence and the ammunition it is supposed to have fired on 11/22/63 could have done what the combination is said to have done. (correct me if I'm wrong BOB)
As previously stated:
You DO NOT have a Carcano. Your comparison to your rifle therefore is not exact and has no value in this debate.
The CiP documents you provide, again, are not what you initially purported them to be and do NOT provide specs for a Carcano barrel. You have yet to provide anything supporting your thesis about the barrel other than a link to an unknown poster on a forum talking about the Carcano. Many people on the internet put forward many inaccurate theories and opinions.
Without real evidence specific to the weapon in question your rebuttal is smoke and mirrors.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - John Lewis - 12-09-2014
Michael Cross Wrote:John Lewis Wrote:Michael Cross Wrote:John Lewis Wrote:Edit: the file you posted was just the tolerance sheet. The specification sheet is here - the groove dimension is denoted as the Z value under 'Barrel'
Thanks again, but again, that's not the spec sheet for the Carcano, so the conclusions you're drawing, if they come from the linked document, are baseless. And the file I previously posted was the one you linked in post 107.
*edit: typo.
Correct, that isn't the spec sheet for the cartridge which the Carcano fires. You are, however, missing the point and have lost track of why this spec sheet was linked to.
Bob said that any 6.5mm rifle with a .268" groove diameter was incapable of being accurate with a .264" bullet.
I said that I had such a rifle, in 6.5x54, and that such dimensions (bore and bullet) were correct for it. Bob called me a liar.
The CiP documents proove that a .264" bullet fired through a .268" barrel are the norn. If they are the norm it means they are acceptable from an accuracy perspective.
If the CiP say that a .264" bullet can be fired through a .268" barrel then Bob 's whole thesis collapses.
JL.
I have to agree with Bob that you are purposely providing disinformation. Bob has clearly been working to provide information about the Carcano that is in evidence as the Oswald rifle - not ANY 6.5 rifle as you say. The entire point of his research is to determine if the rifle in evidence and the ammunition it is supposed to have fired on 11/22/63 could have done what the combination is said to have done. (correct me if I'm wrong BOB)
As previously stated:
You DO NOT have a Carcano. Your comparison to your rifle therefore is not exact and has no value in this debate.
The CiP documents you provide, again, are not what you initially purported them to be and do NOT provide specs for a Carcano barrel. You have yet to provide anything supporting your thesis about the barrel other than a link to an unknown poster on a forum talking about the Carcano. Many people on the internet put forward many inaccurate theories and opinions.
Without real evidence specific to the weapon in question your rebuttal is smoke and mirrors.
Firstly, I would pont out that bob DOES NOT have a Carcano either: and I would guess that he has no 6.5mm rifle at all and so is speaking from a position of total ignorance. At least of greater ignorance than me as I have a rifle which fires a virtually identical round.
Please do not call me a liar as Bob has done many times in saying that the documents are not what I have claimed them to be. I have ALWAYS said that they relate to the 6.5x54 chambering in response to his rubbish that all 6.5mm rifles have .264" barrels.
Please read again the salient points.
Bob says that all - all, not some - 6.5mm rifles (apart from the Carcano) have a .264" groove diameter and that a 6.5mm rifle with a .268" groove diameter firing a .264" bullet could not achieve the feat that Oswalds rifle did.
Please read through this thread and ask your-self in the light of what I have posted; is Bob correct in what he says: namely that the Carcano rifle alleged to have been used by Oswald could not possibly have done what was claimed of it?
He has provided no evidence of that at all. Indeed, I have said that I have a rifle with a legally mandated barrel of well over .264" which shoots .264" bullet just fine, thanks.
On this 'disinformation' thing. Are you seriously pursuing this? The CiP mandates a groove diameter of well over .264" - that is hardly 'disinfo', it is legally mandated fact. Are you suggesting that the CiP are some sort of international 'Disinfo' organisation? Are you also agreeing with Bob that Hornady are also 'disinfo' agents?
Do you also live in a cave and wear a tin-foil hat, per-chance?
JL.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 13-09-2014
I believe the CIP information does show that the MS rifle possesses a groove diameter with a mandated minimum of .2669 - Mr Lewis says that can stretch even further and closer to .268
If this information is accurate it would disprove the claim that the Carcano was the only rifle with a .268 groove diameter.
Michael, I'm not sure if you're following the arguments.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 13-09-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:I believe the CIP information does show that the MS rifle possesses a groove diameter with a mandated minimum of .2669 - Mr Lewis says that can stretch even further and closer to .268
If this information is accurate it would disprove the claim that the Carcano was the only rifle with a .268 groove diameter.
Michael, I'm not sure if you're following the arguments.
Albert
Read the thread "Carcano Rifles". You will have a much better understanding of what is going on. The article I quoted is written by Dave Emary, who is the Chief Ballistic Scientist at Hornady Mfg. As the article reveals, Mr. Emary feels strongly that the accuracy of the Carcano rifles suffered shooting bullets that were .264" in diameter, such as those made by the Western Cartridge Company, and the situation was not rectified until Hornady began making .268" diameter bullets (.2675", to be precise) in 2002.
I know that everyone on these forums continually demands that our sources be qualified or certified or licenced. If the chief ballistic scientist of a major ammunition manufacturing company does not qualify in your eyes, I don't know what else I can do.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 13-09-2014
I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 13-09-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.
If C2766 had a groove diameter larger than .268", it could only be for one or more of the following reasons:
1. The barrel was worn from excessive use.
2. The barrel was corroded or rusted from improper storage in a damp environment.
3. The barrel was mis-manufactured.
A groove diameter greater than .268" in a Carcano rifle would only make the problem worse.
The Western Cartridge Co. bullets have been measured by reliable (non-disinfo agent) sources and found to be .264" in diameter.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 14-09-2014
Mr Lewis?
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 14-09-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:I don't think Oswald shot any bullets that day. However can it be safely said that the C2766 carbine allegedly used by Oswald that day had a .268 groove diameter? And that the Western Cartridge ammunition alleged to have been used that day was definitely .264? If so then we would safely be within the inaccuracy claims by Mr Emary despite any discrepancies over which Mannlichers had a .268 groove diameter and which ones didn't.
Albert
The best confirmation we have of the Western Cartridge Company bullets being .264" in diameter (or less) comes from the Warren Commission testimony of the FBI's firearms expert, SA Robert A. Frazier.
Here is an excerpt from post #5 of this thread, by me:
"And now the best part, SA Robert Frazier testifying to the WC:
"Mr. EISENBERG - Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth. floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found near the south east corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge-- from the same type of cartridge as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG - That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG - You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches.
Okay, now, Frazier, the great firearms expert, measured CE 399 and found it to be 6.65 mm in diameter or, as he testifies, ".267 inches". The actual diameter of a real Carcano bullet is .2677" and is normally rounded off to .268".
But, that is not the problem here. The problem here is that while Frazier may have measured the bullet and found it to be 6.65 mm, 6.65 mm does not equal .267". If you go to this handy dandy conversion site http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm and use their calculator, you will see that 6.65 mm equals .2618", not .267". In other words, not only did Frazier like to stretch the truth, he was a bit on the lazy side as well. He measured the bullet diameter in millimetres but never did the conversion to inches. He likely read the measurement of .267" in a text and assumed 6.65 mm would equal .267".
However, as there is no bullet on the planet that measures 6.65 mm in diameter, I compared the diameter of CE 399 in the photo to the Metric scale above it and found the diameter closer to 6.7 mm. Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition."
Don't you just love it, Albert?
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 14-09-2014
A good lesson in not trusting evidence from experts. Maybe Frazier took a caliper reading from a slightly warped side of the imperfect magic bullet. There's no excuse for the math error though.
All you would really need to know is that the available Western Cartridge ammunition was .264 standard.
Was the .2677 diameter Carcano bullet the same width as the Carcano lands?