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+--- Thread: Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets (/thread-12983.html)
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Drew Phipps - 13-11-2014
I've watched the Zapruder film a great many times and studied the individual frames many times, and I have never seen Connally "reach back." He is unquestionably looking back. You can see that in the Altgens photo too, if you don't want to rely on Zapruder. I do not see JFK visibly reacting to being shot, "lurching forward" (as described by Dan) prior to being obscured by the street sign, contrary to what Rather says. Or reaching up to "touch his eyebrow." And then there's the "wrong-way" snap of the head.
Either Rather is lying, is wrong, or saw a different film.
I also think that the "why" of Jackie's reaction to the head shot may have more significance than people credit. Rather says she's trying to help Clint Hill. To me, she doesn't even acknowledge his presence, and is entirely focused on something else. Other people think she was trying to get away...but if you believe that, you must think that Jackie believed the fatal shot came from the front. You might also decide that she thinks the shot came from behind and she's trying to block the next shot, but people rarely credit her with that intent. She isn't looking up or back for a shooter.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Drew Phipps - 13-11-2014
Bob: Earlier on this thread you and I were talking about the curved path the magic bullet must have followed to zip alongside the curved rib, as described by Shaw. If the bullet isn't moving in a straight line, (bullets occaisonally do that inside a body) how does that affect your idea about the location of the shooter?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Mady - 13-11-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:I've never been near the receiving end of a supersonic bullet, but I've heard that its the sort of sound you don't forget once you hear it, like a rattlesnake rattle or a shotgun slide. I've also heard it compared more to a bullwhip crack, than a firecracker noise. I suppose that Connally, or some of the Secret Service guys, might be more familiar with the sound of a supersonic bullet passing nearby (Connally identified the first sound he heard as a rifle shot). I wonder if there are some acoustic particular characteristics of supersonic bullet noise...
At least 129 witnesses reported hearing at least three shots, of these 110 heard three rifle shots and 19 heard all sorts of things and rifle shots. Of the 19 thirteen of them worked for the government six of these for the SS.
Two men claimed to hear the rifle shots two blocks away and 19 sheriff deputies stationed on the steps of their station house just outside of Dealey Plaza all heard three rifle shots.
How do you propose a suppressor could accomplish these results?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Mady - 13-11-2014
This should be interesting; CLINT HILL heard the first 'firecracker' like sound but never heard the second rifle shot, why is that?
CLINT HILL: SSA REPORT "I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a
firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head
in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile
and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from
the Follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second
firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting
a revolver into something hard. I saw the President slump more toward his
left."
HILL starts moving to the limo after z-300 and does not board the limo until after rifle shot 3, that would mean HILL most likely did not detect shot number 1, but did detect shot number 2, to be like a 'firecracker' and reacted as soon as he saw the President was in distress.
What sort of suppressor can be that good but so specific?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 13-11-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:Bob: Earlier on this thread you and I were talking about the curved path the magic bullet must have followed to zip alongside the curved rib, as described by Shaw. If the bullet isn't moving in a straight line, (bullets occaisonally do that inside a body) how does that affect your idea about the location of the shooter?
Excellent question, Drew, and I'm just tickled that you asked it.
Once I began taking a closer look at Dr. Shaw's WC testimony, and was fully able to comprehend that the bullet stayed on the outside of the 5th rib, stripping it out, I was troubled by the fact the rib would have been curving away from the trajectory of the bullet, and the bullet, as common sense would tell us, could not have followed the rib for 10 cm. (4 inches).
However, going over both of Shaw's WC testimonies again, I noticed a couple of things that Shaw mentioned that explained the whole thing, and put a whole new slant on determining the origin of the bullet that struck the Governor's back.
First, Shaw told the WC that the 5th rib, as observed during surgery, was noticeably more pushed inwards than the 4th and 6th rib, above and below it.
"Dr. Shaw -
Also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side. "
Second, damage was not only done to the 10 cm. section of the 5th rib from the middle to the anterior portion of the rib. The posterior end of the rib, just out from where it attached to the spine, suffered a fracture, as well.
"Mr. SPECTER - What effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib?
Dr. SHAW - This was not noticed at the time of this examination, Mr. Specter. However, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent.
Mr. SPECTER - When you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the X-ray?
Dr. SHAW - This is a point approximately 4 centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine.
Mr. SPECTER - And is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib?
Dr. SHAW - It is caused by the striking at the end of the rib."
To simplify all of this, Dr. Shaw is telling us the bullet struck the 5th rib a "slapping" blow, due to the fact the bullet was almost travelling parallel to the rib. This is what kept the bullet from actually entering the chest cavity. However, as the bullet was not travelling parallel to the rib, the rib offered some resistance. Not only did the bullet strip out a great deal of the rib, it pushed the rib temporarily inward and, for as long as it took to pass through, actually straightened a 10 cm. portion of the rib. This explains how a bullet travelling in a straight line was able to follow a rib curving to the left. And, as the rib was not an overly elastic structure, this straightening caused a stress fracture in the rib 4 cm. from the point where it connected to the spine.
This only explains the trajectory through the rib, though, and the trajectory of the bullet is another matter altogether. As any hunter knows, it takes a great deal to stop a bullet head on yet the smallest of twig branches is enough to deflect a bullet from its trajectory. As the bullet was ploughing through the 5th rib and bowing it inwards, what effect was all of this having on the bullet? Was this enough to deflect the bullet 10-20° to the right from its original trajectory?
"Mr. SPECTER - What effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW - It could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time.
Mr. SPECTER - You say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet?
Dr. SHAW - Deflection of the bullet, I am sorry."
It would be nice to know how many degrees a "slight deflection" translates into. Considering that the SE corner of the TSBD was calculated to be only 9° lateral from the midline of the limo at z223, it would not take many degrees of deflection to seriously complicate the SBT.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Drew Phipps - 13-11-2014
Bob Mady Wrote:Drew Phipps Wrote:I've never been near the receiving end of a supersonic bullet, but I've heard that its the sort of sound you don't forget once you hear it, like a rattlesnake rattle or a shotgun slide. I've also heard it compared more to a bullwhip crack, than a firecracker noise. I suppose that Connally, or some of the Secret Service guys, might be more familiar with the sound of a supersonic bullet passing nearby (Connally identified the first sound he heard as a rifle shot). I wonder if there are some acoustic particular characteristics of supersonic bullet noise...
At least 129 witnesses reported hearing at least three shots, of these 110 heard three rifle shots and 19 heard all sorts of things and rifle shots. Of the 19 thirteen of them worked for the government six of these for the SS.
Two men claimed to hear the rifle shots two blocks away and 19 sheriff deputies stationed on the steps of their station house just outside of Dealey Plaza all heard three rifle shots.
How do you propose a suppressor could accomplish these results?
What suppressor?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Drew Phipps - 13-11-2014
Bob Mady Wrote:This should be interesting; CLINT HILL heard the first 'firecracker' like sound but never heard the second rifle shot, why is that?
CLINT HILL: SSA REPORT "I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a
firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head
in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile
and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from
the Follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second
firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting
a revolver into something hard. I saw the President slump more toward his
left."
HILL starts moving to the limo after z-300 and does not board the limo until after rifle shot 3, that would mean HILL most likely did not detect shot number 1, but did detect shot number 2, to be like a 'firecracker' and reacted as soon as he saw the President was in distress.
What sort of suppressor can be that good but so specific?
Clint Hill's account differs dramatically from the Warren Commission official version, (and especially if you assume that the Zapruder film accurately reflects the WC story) so you're just going to have to choose for yourself whether he's referring to the "firecracker noise" everyone else heard (which was supposedly the first shot that officially missed everyone), or if the "firecracker bullet" hit Kennedy (way way earlier than he reacts).
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Mady - 13-11-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:Drew, I am not discussing any theory and did not bring up the WC story, my question was why did HILL not hear the first shot and the second he interpreted as a 'firecracker' we know HILL was moving to the limo prior to shot number 3. So it is logical that HILL reacted to shot number two because we would expect HILL to react quickly. But even if one or the other, why did HILL miss the sound of one shot? Drew, HILL heard two shots, one prior to him moving to the limo the second was the cause of the fatal head wound. Where is the third shot?Bob Mady Wrote:This should be interesting; CLINT HILL heard the first 'firecracker' like sound but never heard the second rifle shot, why is that?
CLINT HILL: SSA REPORT "I was visually scanning these people when I heard a noise similar to a
firecracker. The sound came from my right rear and I immediately moved my head
in that direction. In so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential automobile
and I saw the President hunch forward and then slump to his left. I jumped from
the Follow-up car and ran toward the Presidential automobile. I heard a second
firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting
a revolver into something hard. I saw the President slump more toward his
left."
HILL starts moving to the limo after z-300 and does not board the limo until after rifle shot 3, that would mean HILL most likely did not detect shot number 1, but did detect shot number 2, to be like a 'firecracker' and reacted as soon as he saw the President was in distress.
What sort of suppressor can be that good but so specific?
Clint Hill's account differs dramatically from the Warren Commission official version, (and especially if you assume that the Zapruder film accurately reflects the WC story) so you're just going to have to choose for yourself whether he's referring to the "firecracker noise" everyone else heard (which was supposedly the first shot that officially missed everyone), or if the "firecracker bullet" hit Kennedy (way way earlier than he reacts).
What are you talking "firecracker' sound every one else heard, what about the 110 witness that heard three rifle shots?
Let me add that there was no pattern to the witness locations that heard three rifle shots, they were scattered virtually everywhere. Why do you suppose just some people only heard 'firecracker' sounds for one or more shots and in the case of HILL as well as others miss a shot?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Mady - 13-11-2014
What is interesting is to corroborate HILL by LANDIS:
'I glanced towards the President and he still appeared to be fairly upright in
his seat, leaning slightly toward Mrs. Kennedy with his head tilted slightly
back. I think Mrs. Kennedy had her right arm around the President's shoulders at
this time. I also remember Special Agent Clinton Hill attempting to climb onto
the back of the President's car.
It was at this moment that I heard a
second report and it appeared that the President's head split open with a
muffled exploding sound.'
LANDIS claims the first shot to have sounded like a high-powered rifle, LANDIS then sees HILL moving to limo prior to rifle shot number 2 occurring.
How can two SSA miss the sound of 1 shot and being only feet from one another interpret the shot they do hear so completely differently?
What sort of suppressor will do this?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Mady - 13-11-2014
This one is next
WC Testimony MARTIN "Mr. MARTIN. Yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot."
PO Martin hears thee rifle shots and sees HILL start running to limo after the first rifle shot...
We must be getting closer to the truth now...the next ones a sinch