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+--- Thread: John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee (/thread-11170.html)
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jan Klimkowski - 24-08-2013
Phil Dragoo Wrote:Would these men not also have foreseen the unthinkable, that an anti-fascist might displace this heir apparent.
In which case we have at hand a universal patsy in the uniform of the Enemy.
Now that is a profound thought.
I've interviewed several adults who claim to have been experimented on as children.
Two of the most credible were sisters born within a year or so of each other. They claimed to have been used as doubles.
I believe we can suspect that a Russian child doubled with an American child would most likely be used in a Cold War operation, such as a false defection.
However, fundamentally, I still believe that the use of such an "asset" in the assassination of an American President would have been opportunistic, at the Facilitator level, because it would both:
Necessitate a cover up by the National Security State of the crime
and
Create numerous political narratives which could be exploited by both Facilitators and Sponsors.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 25-08-2013
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Jim - my original post is #87, on page 9, here.
Thank you for that. I'm way out of my league here on the MK-ULTRA and other mind-control stuff, but it certainly is interesting to hear there were active MK-ULTRA ops at Atsugi.
The approach John Armstrong took, which soon made me a disciple of his work, followed a simpler and more pedestrian path. He just traveled to D.C., put on the little white evidence gloves at the National Archives, and examined all the original evidence he could get his gloved hands on. And then he bought the FBI "Series 2" microfilm collection from U.M.I., got himself a microfilm reader, and went through the thousands of FBI reports that Hoover wouldn't allow his agents to follow-up on or share. Then he put the subject matter of the most interesting reports into chronological order, and he looked for a story that made sense and, in the end, was relatively simple.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:I am intrigued by the hypothesis that two children, Harvey and Lee, may have been part of a highly compartmentalised inteligence operation, whereby either could pass as the individual known as Lee Harvey Oswald in adulthood.
I am happy to explore the hypothesis that Harvey/Lee Oswald was used in a false defection operation against the USSR, by intelligence and possibly MK-ULTRA elements.
My fundamental point though is that, if there was a Harvey and Lee operation, at its beginning, during the childhood of Lee and Harvey, they were simply experimental subjects who could be used in future operations which were not then known.
Certainly not known with any specificity, but if the foreign-born Oswald impersonator understood the Russian language from an early age, that fact alone suggests a certain utility as a future intelligence asset in Soviet matters.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In 1952, those handling Lee and/or Harvey did not have the remotest conception as to the nature of the operations in which the children would be used as adults.
There could certainly have been no conception that LHO would be used in an operation to assassinate an American President.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! The early Oswald project would have had nothing to do with the assassination of a president. In 1954, JFK was in the Senate, Batista was elected unopposed in Cuba, and Fidel Castro was in prison. But also in 1954, the Cold War with the Soviet Union was on everyone's mind. I remember the "duck and cover" nuclear war rehearsals in PS-165, my elementary school in NYC. Evidence that the Oswald project became entangled in the Kennedy Assassination begins in Sept./Oct. 1963.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:So, as posted above, the key question is who, in 1962-3, had knowledge of the intelligence operations in which LHO had been used, and of the childhood experimentation to which he/they had - hypothetically -been subjected.
The answer to this question - who had knowledge of LHO's inteligence files and background - provides major clues pointing towards the identity of the Facilitator(s) who selected him as a patsy in the assassination of JFK.
Sure sounds productive to me. And it leads to the usual suspects, doesn't it?
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Marlene Zenker - 25-08-2013
Jim Hargrove Wrote:Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Jim - my original post is #87, on page 9, here.
Thank you for that. I'm way out of my league here on the MK-ULTRA and other mind-control stuff, but it certainly is interesting to hear there were active MK-ULTRA ops at Atsugi.
The approach John Armstrong took, which soon made me a disciple of his work, followed a simpler and more pedestrian path. He just traveled to D.C., put on the little white evidence gloves at the National Archives, and examined all the original evidence he could get his gloved hands on. And then he bought the FBI "Series 2" microfilm collection from U.M.I., got himself a microfilm reader, and went through the thousands of FBI reports that Hoover wouldn't allow his agents to follow-up on or share. Then he put the subject matter of the most interesting reports into chronological order, and he looked for a story that made sense and, in the end, was relatively simple.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:I am intrigued by the hypothesis that two children, Harvey and Lee, may have been part of a highly compartmentalised inteligence operation, whereby either could pass as the individual known as Lee Harvey Oswald in adulthood.
I am happy to explore the hypothesis that Harvey/Lee Oswald was used in a false defection operation against the USSR, by intelligence and possibly MK-ULTRA elements.
My fundamental point though is that, if there was a Harvey and Lee operation, at its beginning, during the childhood of Lee and Harvey, they were simply experimental subjects who could be used in future operations which were not then known.
Certainly not known with any specificity, but if the foreign-born Oswald impersonator understood the Russian language from an early age, that fact alone suggests a certain utility as a future intelligence asset in Soviet matters.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In 1952, those handling Lee and/or Harvey did not have the remotest conception as to the nature of the operations in which the children would be used as adults.
There could certainly have been no conception that LHO would be used in an operation to assassinate an American President.
ABSOLUTELY TRUE!! The early Oswald project would have had nothing to do with the assassination of a president. In 1954, JFK was in the Senate, Batista was elected unopposed in Cuba, and Fidel Castro was in prison. But also in 1954, the Cold War with the Soviet Union was on everyone's mind. I remember the "duck and cover" nuclear war rehearsals in PS-165, my elementary school in NYC. Evidence that the Oswald project became entangled in the Kennedy Assassination begins in Sept./Oct. 1963.
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:So, as posted above, the key question is who, in 1962-3, had knowledge of the intelligence operations in which LHO had been used, and of the childhood experimentation to which he/they had - hypothetically -been subjected.
The answer to this question - who had knowledge of LHO's inteligence files and background - provides major clues pointing towards the identity of the Facilitator(s) who selected him as a patsy in the assassination of JFK.
Sure sounds productive to me. And it leads to the usual suspects, doesn't it?
Jim
Another question is how many other Harvey/Lee like pairs have there been and what operations have they been a part of? I shudder to think.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 26-08-2013
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:The answer to this question - who had knowledge of LHO's inteligence files and background - provides major clues pointing towards the identity of the Facilitator(s) who selected him as a patsy in the assassination of JFK.Off and on all day today, I wondered if a similar approach to Jan's exercise above could lead to the identities of Facilitators outside the CIA, assuming any exist, and the results, so far, are admittedly mixed. But....
The evidence suggests FBI leadership was in full cover-up mode within hours of the assassination. By 11/24, the day Ruby shot Oswald, associate director Clyde Tolson wrote to Belmont saying the "results of the investigation have been reduced to written form.... Oswald is responsible for the shooting that killed the President. We will show that Oswald was an avowed Marxist, a former defector to the Soviet union and an active member of the FPCC, which has been financed by Castro. We will set forth the items of evidence which make it clear that Oswald is the man who killed the President."
JA's opinion is that Hoover would not have ordered a cover-up on his own unless he had foreknowledge of the hit, and that sounds right to me. If a prescient Hoover took no action to stop the slaughter, then he was surely a Facilitator by almost anyone's definition!
But if Hoover wasn't a Facilitator, he must have been immediately ordered by someone to assassinate a real investigation, and who had the power to do that? Who had the power to tell J. Edgar Hoover what to do?
And, most researchers will probably agree, one more man was appointed to the Warren Commission who could help steer the cover-up and keep the identity of the Facilitators hidden. This triumvirate surely participated in the cover-up at the highest level. That accepted, the question then becomes, did any or all of them have foreknowledge, and will we ever know if they did?
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 26-08-2013
Marlene Zenker Wrote:Another question is how many other Harvey/Lee like pairs have there been and what operations have they been a part of? I shudder to think.
Wish there were some answers here, but much of this is no doubt hard to find. If memory serves, John Armstrong had a story about top-level Cuban intelligence officers who were identical twins, but I can't find it at the moment. A quick Google search reveals few details about spy twins engaged in terrible mayhem. Harvey and Lee were hardly identical twins, though, and the appropriate search terms are a bit elusive.
Here is a story about identical twins from Tasmania who were WWII spies: (The Aussie link may be a bit slow, but it's worked three times for me.)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5164[/ATTACH]
Identical twins Don, left, and Peter Field were members of an elite, ultra-secret
team dropped behind enemy lines in New Guinea during WWII
Identical twins Don, left, and Peter Field were members of an elite, ultra-secret
team dropped behind enemy lines in New Guinea during WWII
Anyone else?
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 26-08-2013
Most of the CIA-, MI-, and even FBI-related 'grunts' I've interviewed have mentioned [often spontaneously without my prompting] that the use of doubles [in various forms: name alone; body doubles; replacing the dead; other] were commonly used in covert and intelligence operations in a variety of ways and kept on hand for uses not yet planned.
As for the possible MK/ULTRA angle to the Harvey/Lee story, I'd like to remind all that while mind-control [and resisting mind-control] was the more famous part of MK/ULTRA, it had other components. Another, of several components, was training assassins.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 26-08-2013
Peter Lemkin Wrote:As for the possible MK/ULTRA angle to the Harvey/Lee story, I'd like to remind all that while mind-control [and resisting mind-control] was the more famous part of MK/ULTRA, it had other components. Another, of several components, was training assassins.
[size=12]And patsies? [/SIZE]The training skilled ops part of MK/ULTRA eludes me, but thanks for your reply!
[size=12]Jim[/SIZE]
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - James Norwood - 29-08-2013
Jim,
Have a look at one of the newly discovered photographs of Marguerite Oswald:
http://oswald-photos.blogspot.com/
If you scroll down the page, the photo in question (#14 out of 24) is captioned "1948-49, Benbrook, TX" and depicts Marguerite Oswald standing in front of a motor vehicle on a makeshift driveway.
The large vehicle is probably a 1938 Buick--the same car with the large grill that is seen in the "wedding photo" of Marguerite and Edwin Ekdahl (52-07 in John's CD Rom).
The same makeshift driveway is seen in John's photograph 52-15 (CD Rom) at 101 San Saba in Benbrook. In this photo, Lee and his dog "Blackie" are seen in front of the big Buick with the small San Sabo home in the background.
John uncovered testimony of neighbors suggesting that the Marguerite imposter was living at the San Sabo home and caring for the three Oswald boys in the middle of 1947. When Robert Oswald began to testify about the summer of 1947 to the Warren Commission, Allen Dulles called for an adjournment. When the session reconvened, the questioning began with the summer of 1948, neatly avoiding a discussion of the San Saba property.
My question to you and John is: Which Marguerite is depicted in the photograph alongside the Buick at San Saba?
James
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 29-08-2013
James Norwood Wrote:My question to you and John is: Which Marguerite is depicted in the photograph alongside the Buick at San Saba?Hi, James,
James
The most reliable measure to distinguish the two women, for me at least, is their heights, which minimizes changes over time, hair styles, wearing or not wearing glasses, etc. Marguerite Oswald was, from estimates derived by comparing photos of the two women standing next to Edwin Ekdahl and Marina, for example, at least 6" taller than the WC Marguerite, maybe more. Earlier in this thread (# 115) I posted some pictures demonstrating that difference.
Assuming #14 of Robert's blogspot photos shows the same car as in the photo of Marguerite standing next to Mr. Ekdahl, she appears to be about the same height as the real Marguerite, and I'd assume she was the genuine article. The neighbor you reference was probably George Bell, who John interviewed 15 years ago or so. Georgia said she remembered a shorter Marguerite at 101 San Saba, but that doesn't appear to be the lady in this photo. The height difference is striking.
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 05-09-2013
Hi,
John has a new write-up called "The Early Lives of Harvey and Lee." Read it here. There are some interesting new pictures, and the following reproduction of a page from the 1956 New Orleans telephone directory showing a "Margt" Oswald at 120 N. Telemachus, and a "Marguerite" Oswald at 126 N. Exchange.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5218[/ATTACH]
John writes, "While LEE Oswald was working for Tujague's and living at 126 Exchange, from the summer of 1955 through the summer of 1956, where were HARVEY and the Marguerite Oswald impostor living? HARVEY Oswald began attending Warren Easton HS on Canal Street in the fall of 1955, so they probably lived nearby. The New Orleans City directory in 1956 lists a "Margt Oswald" at 120 N. Telemachus, which is just off Canal St. and is midway between Beauregard JHS and Warren Easton HS. The same New Orleans City directory, on the same page, lists a Marguerite Oswald at 126 Exchange."
Jim