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+--- Thread: Dotting the Eye (/Thread-Dotting-the-Eye)
Dotting the Eye - David Josephs - 22-03-2013
http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2009/11/doug-horne.html
DOUG HORNE: I am vir[B]tually certain they are not photographic forgeries because[/B] I've looked at them in extremely close detail, and by this I mean I have studied the so-called camera-original color positive transparencies for hours at a time in Rochester, after they were magnified by enhancing software in the Kodak lab where we took them for digital preservation. We didn't see any matte lines, or any discontinuities in the hair. We could see individual pores in the skin in between the strands of hair, and all of the grain and resolution seemed consistent across the board in the areas were looking at.
However, I'm convinced that, while not "special effects" forgeries, they are fraudulent and dishonest. They official Navy photographer, John Stringer, and his assistant Floyd Riebe, left the morgue after the conclusion of the autopsy at about 11:45 PM or midnight. Then a second photographer Robert Knudsen, who was not a trained medical photographer, but a Navy chief photographer's mate who was a social photographer at the White House was employed to take the pictures of the head after its reconstruction.
I, for one, have not had the luxury to view these images as Doug has... I doubt very many here have. Are we take his word? I leave that to each of you, yet he makes a very strong case.
If then, that black circle is not an anomolie that JUMPS from the negatives/photos AND we have no real idea WHEN the photos was actually taken... one MUST conclude based on Horne that it was actually there and is further coroborrated by the evidence presented.
Are the photos in circulation the same as what Horne viewed? I have only now begun to read the IARRB volume dealing with this... I don't know at this writing what Horne has said about that distinction... but I will.
If anyone has that answer, it would be greatly appreciated.
What is the black circle WE SEE on the image posted? Well, it's either a hole or it's a forgery to hide something underneath... which would make sense yet we have other images and xrays and evidence from which to test these two alternatives. From everything I have seen, read and researched it is actually a HOLE in JFK's right temple.... looking at Groden's color version it seems to me that hair is obscuring where this hole appears in F6/7
and here is Boswell's drawing overlaid on F6... Had Humes already performed "surgery to the top of the head" ?? Were Reed and Robinson correct in their ARRB testimonies about watching Humes saw thru JFK's head?
The line coming from that circle lead s to text that appears to state: "globe rt eye"
Sadly, here is the jist of Boswell's WCR testimony:
Mr. SPECTER - Did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late President Kennedy?
Commander BOSWELL - I did.
Mr. SPECTER - And did you assist Doctor Humes at that time?
Commander BOSWELL - Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you been present here today during the entire course of Doctor Humes testimony?
Commander BOSWELL - I have, sir; yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have anything that you would like to add by way of elaboration or modification to that which Doctor Humes has testified?
Commander BOSWELL - None, I believe. Doctor Humes has stated essentially what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our conclusions.
His ARRB deposition is a bit more revealing
A. There was a big wound sort of transverse up like this from left posterior
to right anterior. The scalp was separated, but it was folded over, and you
could fold the scalp over and almost hide the wound. When you lifted the scalp
up, you could really lay it back posteriorally, and there was a lot of bone
still attached to the scalp but detached from the remainder of the skull. And I
think these parts back here probably reflect that.
Q. Dr. Boswell, I'm sorry to jump in here, but I just want to make sure that
the record is going to be clear here. And we can come back to this, and I want
you to explain it the best you can. But would it be fair to say first that the
diagram that we're talking about is a drawing of the skull of President Kennedy as seen from the top? Would that be fair?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you explain why, at least to me as a lay person, it appears that there is a rectangular drawing near what I would presume to be the area of the right--or the left orbit and it seems to be circular in the right orbit? Is there some explanation for that that you know of?
A. Well, I remember that the fracture through the bone extended from the frontal bone and through the floor of the orbit. Why that is round and this one is square over here, I don't know.
Q. In the center of the circle on the right orbit, it appears that there is a hook-shaped line that crosses through the center of the circle and then goes on to the front of that. Do you see that circle?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that signify a crack in the floor of the orbit? Is that the purpose of that line?
A. Yes.
The word "globe" does not appear in Boswell's ARRB deposition... even though it is written directly over and pointing to this "circle" forwhich Boswell has no explanation. This image & drawing in in no way coroborrated by anyone at Parkland.
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At JFK Lancer many years ago a blood splatter expert hypothesized that based on the direction of JFK's head at the time of the shot, and the very real possibility of a frontal shot hittin ghte right temple and blowing out the right rear of JFK's head, that the location of the shot COULD have originated from much further SOUTH than previously thought.
Additionally, the concept of a tangential shot hitting the front right yet not traveling in a straight line thru JFK is very possible. A bullet that would leave the number of particles found on the xrays is NOT consistent with a FMJ bullet unless it went through and through and was yet another disappearing "missle". Even then, a FMJ simple is not designed to behave like that....
Even at the highest velocities, a FMJ bullet does not create dust sized particles... and if one looks at the actual velocity of the Carcano in question... the bullet - even fired from the rear - would have not left the kind of debris seen in the xrays.
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So why does it look 2 dimensional... why does it LOOK like it was drawn in? Until we see the original negative and the enlargements that Horne saw, or read where he compares what he saw with F6/7 image... IDK.
But I would offer a THEORY as to where a shot to the right temple may have originated and why there is so much evidence to support that being an actual bullet hole.
DJ
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Dotting the Eye - David Josephs - 22-03-2013
Believe him or not... Tosh appears to support the idea.
So I tried to find images of that area of the Overpass and found what appears to me as something that is there and then later is gone.
If trains were moving and noise from motocycles filled the air... is it possible a shot comes from the SOUTHWEST with very little notice as everyone was looking to the NORTHEAST...
I realize this thread is about that photo and that hole.... I submit this post in support of that hole being exactly what it appears to be... a hole, NOT thru the right temple, but above the right eye a few cms to the left of the right temple.
DJ
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Dotting the Eye - Gordon Gray - 22-03-2013
There seems to be a lot of evidence for a wound of entrance at the base of the presidents occipital bone. I have often wondered where it exited. I have assumed that the point of exit was obliterated by the entrance of a frangible bullet to the right temple area, fired from the front, but perhaps this black spot/circle/hole? is the exit wound for that shot from the rear. It might be compatible with a trajectory from the Dal Tex building.
Dotting the Eye - David Josephs - 22-03-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:There seems to be a lot of evidence for a wound of entrance at the base of the presidents occipital bone. I have often wondered where it exited. I have assumed that the point of exit was obliterated by the entrance of a frangible bullet to the right temple area, fired from the front, but perhaps this black spot/circle/hole? is the exit wound for that shot from the rear. It might be compatible with a trajectory from the Dal Tex building.
Interesting Gordon... yet I don't know if I'd go as far as "a lot of evidence"... nor do I see any evidence that it was a low-to-high angle since the only shots from the rear would have originated above JFK's head.
I am only aware of Lipsey and a cryptic comment from Kellerman as to a lower entrance wound at the spot Specter would like the BACK wound to have really been.
Can you add to this list of evidence in support of that wound?
http://www.jfklancer.com/Backes.html
Lipsey drew an entrance wound low in the back of the skull and one high on the back. Tom Robinson of Gawler's Funeral Home also drew a diagram which contradicted the autopsy photographs and X-rays.(MD88)
Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight.
Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say?
Mr. KELLERMAN. T[B]he upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below i[/B]t.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have observed?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate with--th[B]e medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit[/B].
DJ
Dotting the Eye - Jim DiEugenio - 23-03-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:Have no idea what the black spot/dot/circle is, but here's a related hypothesis: If the spot is indeed an entrance wound one could reasonably infer that a shot had been fired from the area at the south end of the overpass, given the angle of the president's head in Z 312. Since (other than Fetzer's fetzerings about the hole in the windshield) I have seen no credible evidence of a shot fired from that location, I would doubt it. I recall seeing a view through a scope from that area, perhaps INSIDE THE TARGET CAR, that would have made that a difficult shot. Very likely striking the driver or Jackie. If this is true then I would guess that the spot/dot/circle is not an entrance wound. The hole could possibly be an exit wound for the shot that hit him from the rear, but that's just me speculating, not hypothesizing.
Gordon, please do not rely on Gary Mack/Dunkel's Inside the Target Car for anything in this case.
(If you are not aware of just how bad it was, please click this link http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd.html)
He did not have his marksman take a shot from the south end of the overpass. He had him move down the picket fence about 30-40 feet. Thereby avoiding what many people, including me, think is the best shot; which is at the end of the fence, where it juts out and where there is a storm drain right below. From, there the assassin would have a perfect shot with the target coming right at him and more than enough time to line it all up in the crosshairs.
Gary/Larry avoided this spot and moved down the fence. Why? I think in order to spout that disinfo story about Jackie being in the line of fire. Which she was not. From either angle.
Dotting the Eye - Gordon Gray - 23-03-2013
The Z film shows the head moving forward before it moves back indicating a shot from the rear. Humes and Boswell were pretty adamant about an entry wound in the lower occipital area. The fact that the Clark commission, Rockefeller commission, and the HSCA tried to brow beat them into changing their minds about it, suggests to me that they were pretty certain of that location. Humes' renigged for the HSCA but then returned to his original opinion. Also Mantik's work on the X Rays and showing the fragment at the cowlick to be a fabrication, would indicate to me that the lower wound was accurate. What would be the angle of incidence from the second or third floor of the Dal Tex building? Given the angle of JFK head, it's possible that the bullet's exit could be in the region of the spot/dot/circle.
Dotting the Eye - Charles Drago - 23-03-2013
This is PRECISELY the sort of dialog that my "hypothesis" threads are intended to engender.
Dotting the Eye - Gordon Gray - 23-03-2013
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:I was referring to the views through the scope at the S Knoll and the S. end of the overpass. They seem to show a difficult shot through the windshield. 6.20 of part two. I am aware that the show was a piece of snake oil salesmanship, but unless they are misrepresenting where those two views through the scope were taken,(and I wouldn't put it past them) I think they indicate two very difficult shots. I have been to Dealey Plaza several times and stood in positions where I thought shots could have been taken. The first thing that became clear to me was that there were virtually no positions that would allow for more than one shot, because of the topography and the various obstructions like trees, hillsides, walls, signs, etc. It was difficult to tell if the position at the N end of the overpass, by the storm drain, could have worked for the head shot because I didn't have the exact location of the car to judge, but it looked to be tricky because of the curve of the hill there and the shrubbery. In particular the tree that one sees at 7.11 allows for a very narrow window of opportunity, but they should have tried a shot from there. Of course their Mrs. Kennedy is in the wrong position. The best position was behind the fence, for me, about half way between the storm drain area and the E. corner of the fence, much farther W. than the one they took. I don't think the angle is as important as some do, because it was most likely a frangible bullet. But do you disagree with there being a shot from behind as well? It seems like there is some general agreement that he was hit twice, from behind and from the front. Don't the people who have seen the "other film" say that is clearly shown? My point is that a bullet hole at the location of the black dot seems unlikely because it would indicate a shot from the S knoll or S overpass, and that seems a very difficult shot.Gordon Gray Wrote:Have no idea what the black spot/dot/circle is, but here's a related hypothesis: If the spot is indeed an entrance wound one could reasonably infer that a shot had been fired from the area at the south end of the overpass, given the angle of the president's head in Z 312. Since (other than Fetzer's fetzerings about the hole in the windshield) I have seen no credible evidence of a shot fired from that location, I would doubt it. I recall seeing a view through a scope from that area, perhaps INSIDE THE TARGET CAR, that would have made that a difficult shot. Very likely striking the driver or Jackie. If this is true then I would guess that the spot/dot/circle is not an entrance wound. The hole could possibly be an exit wound for the shot that hit him from the rear, but that's just me speculating, not hypothesizing.
Gordon, please do not rely on Gary Mack/Dunkel's Inside the Target Car for anything in this case.
(If you are not aware of just how bad it was, please click this link http://www.ctka.net/2009/target_car_jd.html)
He did not have his marksman take a shot from the south end of the overpass. He had him move down the picket fence about 30-40 feet. Thereby avoiding what many people, including me, think is the best shot; which is at the end of the fence, where it juts out and where there is a storm drain right below. From, there the assassin would have a perfect shot with the target coming right at him and more than enough time to line it all up in the crosshairs.
Gary/Larry avoided this spot and moved down the fence. Why? I think in order to spout that disinfo story about Jackie being in the line of fire. Which she was not. From either angle.
Dotting the Eye - David Josephs - 25-03-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:The Z film shows the head moving forward before it moves back indicating a shot from the rear. Humes and Boswell were pretty adamant about an entry wound in the lower occipital area. The fact that the Clark commission, Rockefeller commission, and the HSCA tried to brow beat them into changing their minds about it, suggests to me that they were pretty certain of that location. Humes' renigged for the HSCA but then returned to his original opinion. Also Mantik's work on the X Rays and showing the fragment at the cowlick to be a fabrication, would indicate to me that the lower wound was accurate. What would be the angle of incidence from the second or third floor of the Dal Tex building? Given the angle of JFK head, it's possible that the bullet's exit could be in the region of the spot/dot/circle.
Please look again Gordon... The trail of particles cannot originate anterior to solid bone... there is no hole in the head where a back to front bullet would have traveled.. and certainly not from the lower next UP to the right temple...
Now, look at the overlay of this xray on JFK... and the two images of the "circle"... (small hole in... big hole out) please notice that the anterior origin of the particles coincides with the entry point, NOT at the temple but directly above the eye at the hairline. Not a single DALLAS witness placed damage to the front of JFK's head... other than potential bullet hole entries... if there was a shot from Dal-Tex and it hits him at the base of the neck, describe the exit wound please. If it hit him at the top of the head and left that trail of particles... show us a bullet hole at the back of the head... if the frontal xray was a reflection of reality... how does everyone at Parkland not see and describe such a hole... but rather draw and describe a HOLE AT THE BACK OF HIS HEAD....
C'mon now Gordon... do we really suppose that black circle represents a single bullet's exit location? Would that not require a FMJ bullet that does not disintegrate but simply passes straight thru? and with most of the right hemisphere of the brain gone... what is holding these particles in place? Left side of the brain or what's left of the right side? The particles get bigger as you move front to back... more exposive power at the point of impact and as the bullet slows/explodes, bigger are seen in the back. But for a shot to originate at Dal-Tex (or anyplace from the rear) don't we expect to see the entire front of JFK's face gone and a large gapping hole where his forehead used to be?
Mantik proves the Xrays are a lie... and were created to give the impression the front of JFK's skull was blown out... when in reality he was hit in the head, high on the right side and had brain and skull blown out the back.
" I was trying to hold his hair on. Fr[B]om the front there was nothing --[/B]- I suppose there must have been. But from the back you could see, you know, you were trying to hold his hair on, and his skull on." -Jackie
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HILL: Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up on the
car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the
President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. Mrs. Kennedy had
jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something
coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she
noticed that I was trying to climb on the car. She turned toward me and I
grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back
seat and lay there
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for?
Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the portion of the President's head.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?
Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir; other officers, Secret Service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and I went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, I believe, I wouldn't quote this, but I turned it over to one of the Secret Service men and I told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. I later found out it was supposedly a portion of the President's skull.
Mr. BALL - That you picked up off the street?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What part of the street did you pick this up?
Mr. WEITZMAN - As the President's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. It would be the----
Mr. BALL - The left-hand side facing----
Mr. WEITZMAN - That would be the south side of the street.
Mr. BALL - It was on the south side of the street. Was it in the street?
Mr. WEITZMAN - It was in the street itself.
Mr. BALL - On the pavement?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Anywhere near the curb?
Mr. WEITZMAN - Approximately, oh, I would say 8 to 12 inches from the curb, something like that.
Mr. BALL - Off the record.
(Off record discussion.)
Dotting the Eye - Gordon Gray - 25-03-2013
I think a shot from the rear with a FMJ bullet would not necessarily leave a massive exit wound in the President's face. It could very well leave such a hole at the location at the hairline above the right eye. I am not denying a shot from the front. I am fairly sure there was one involving a frangible bullet, and this is what explains the trail of particles. But the forward motion of the Presisdent's head Z312-313, the autopsy doctors and the observations of the people who saw the "other film", gives a strong indication for a shot from the rear. If you don't trust the XRays(and I don't either) what evidence do you have that there was not an occipital wound as the autopsy doctors described? Also the location of other shooters has never been ruled out. There could have been gunmen any where behind the pergola which could have resulted in a flatter trajectory and an angle more in keeping with such an exit hole. The shot need not have come from the Dal Tex.