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+--- Thread: The President's back wound. (/Thread-The-President-s-back-wound)
The President's back wound. - Gordon Gray - 01-05-2013
Anthony DeFiore Wrote:I believe I recall reading the ARRB depositions from some of the other morgue attendants who noted probes in the back wound that appeared to be 45 degrees. I don't believe the records building is significantly higher than the TSBD. If the TSBD is half 45 degrees at 6 floors the Records building would have to be at least twelve floors.Gordon Gray Wrote:Anthony DeFiore Wrote:IMHO, I think there were two shooters in the Dal Tex bldg and one on the County Building. One of the Dal Tex shooters hit JFK in the back at the same time as a shot entered his throat. As for the "second back wound", that could have come from the shooter on the County Bldg. I think the County Bldg shooter fired three shots at the limo. He hit JFK in the back (45), he hit Connally in the back and then he hit Connally in the wrist as Connally began to lay in his wife's lap.Here is a view from the Daltex window. There appears to be nothing to obstruct a shot at the time the president seems to be hit initially on the Z film, unless the shooter was even more incompetent a shot than LHO. [ATTACH=CONFIG]4690[/ATTACH]A 45 degree angle would be too steep for the top of any of the buildings around the turn at Elm St. Keep in mind the angle from the 6th floor window at the point was less than half that steep. So the question remains, what would cause the shallow wound at a 45 degree angle, other than a deflection from the tree in front of the 6th floor window, and how could it have been deflected at the time the president is first hit? I have always thought that the wound in the throat was the result of a shot from the front. Pat Speer's theory that the shot that hit the president in the lower occiput exited from the throat, makes some sense to me, but it would have had to have happened much later than the first shot.
I am open to the idea that the "shooters" from the Dal Tex building could have hit JFK twice in the back. One may have been deflected causing a fragment to enter his back in such a shallow manner. Perhaps the Dal Tex shooters were on the third or fourth floor of the building which may have caused the 45 degree angle?
I do not know if anyone has looked at JFK's back brace which may have been high enough on his back to slow the bullet into his back at such a superficial rate. I have always believed that the autopsy photo of his back showed two wounds that were later "drawn" out of the sketches done later.
Additionally, the angle into JFK's back at 45 may have been the bullet fired from the County Building as he lurched over towards Jackie Kennedy after Z225.
Just thinking....TD
Good points. No question the angles are debatable. I was researching Horne's work on the autposy, and I believe the only medical person to determine that it was a 45 degree angle was dr. Hume. Nuff said. But my question is that a 45 degree angle can be achieved from the top of the County building at Z224/225 with what I believe is a simultaneous hit from the front in to the throat (accordingly, thru the windshield). Also, I absolutely agree with you on the 6th floor shooters (two from the famous window) were strictly diversionary shots.
The President's back wound. - David Josephs - 01-05-2013
Mr. Rankin:
Then theres a great range of material in
regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit
or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all
has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.
We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably
a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation
the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent,
since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in
the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the
right of the backbone, which is below the place where the
picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt
in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike
any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.
So that how it could turn, and --
Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a
finger's length.
Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said
And we all know that what was FIRST SAID, if it made the LN case against Oswald impossible, was summarily changed.
This passage does not exist in the EXISTING AUTOPSY REPORT.
Wonder why?
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0065b.htm
Downward trajectory of the back-to-throat wound was determined to be just over 17 degrees
Yet the bullet must travel UP to exit the throat and again DOWN at 25 degrees to hit JC....
The bullet did not transit and was NOT CE399... there was a very small caliber shot to the throat with a bullet lodged in his neck
in addition to the bullet lodged behind his ear....
Oswald did no shooting that day
DJ
The President's back wound. - Gordon Gray - 01-05-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Mr. Rankin:Not sure what any of this has to do with the question at hand. No one is suggesting the bullet transected the president's body or that LHO shot anybody. The question is two fold; what would cause such a shallow wound, and where would a shot originate from if the angle was indeed 45 degrees? I was hoping someone with knowledge of firearms might suggest various ways a high powered rifle might malfunction in such a way as to cause the shallow wound.
Then theres a great range of material in
regards to the wound and the autopsy and this point of exit
or entrance of the bullet in the front of the neck, and that all
has to be developed much more than we have at the present time.
We have an explanation there in the autopsy that probably
a fragment came out the front of the neck, but with the elevation
the shot must have come from, and the angle, it seems quite apparent,
since we have the picture of where the bullet entered in
the back, that the bullet entered below the shoulder blade to the
right of the backbone, which is below the place where the
picture shows the bullet came out in the neckband of the shirt
in front, and the bullet, according to the autopsy didn't strike
any bone at all, that particular bullet, and go through.
So that how it could turn, and --
Rep. Boggs. I thought I read that bullet just went.in a
finger's length.
Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said
And we all know that what was FIRST SAID, if it made the LN case against Oswald impossible, was summarily changed.
This passage does not exist in the EXISTING AUTOPSY REPORT.
Wonder why?
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0065b.htm
Downward trajectory of the back-to-throat wound was determined to be just over 17 degrees
Yet the bullet must travel UP to exit the throat and again DOWN at 25 degrees to hit JC....
The bullet did not transit and was NOT CE399... there was a very small caliber shot to the throat with a bullet lodged in his neck
in addition to the bullet lodged behind his ear....
Oswald did no shooting that day
DJ
The President's back wound. - David Josephs - 01-05-2013
Sorry Gordon....
the 45 degrees had to do with what Humes said as he stuck his pinkie in the hole... a bullet entering and then coursing downward (yaw) is not uncommon at all... I do not believe Humes was relating the shooting angle to 45-60 degrees but how the shallow wound felt to him... if he could feel the end of the wound, yet they did not bother to record the removal of a bullet of fragment from that spot... it was either removed earlier or really did fall out of JFK duing cardiac massage and was the pointed bullet Nurse Bell picks up.
As to how a bullet stops in the body... it is all based upon the speed of the bullet. There are rifles that will fire rounds at low-velocity such as .22 LR which leaves the muzzle at 1150fps and slows to 975 at 100 yards.
The bullet Audrey Bell picked up was a pointed nose, very small bullet which can easily explain what caused the back wound.
Finally, here is a FMJ chart on fragmentation at different speeds.... at less than 1500fps (more like 1000fps) we should see no fragmentation and a very shallow wound... (and please realize that the MC, at less than 2000fps should not, COULD NOT have created a trail of minute particles as seen in the xrays... a different type of bullet from the front would have left that trail...
DJ
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]
The President's back wound. - Gordon Gray - 01-05-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Sorry Gordon....This is the first I've heard Audrey Bell picked up a pointed nose bullet. I thought that was Darrel Tomlinson. Ms. Bell I believe signed over the Connolly wrist fragments to the two Feds.We don't know who the nurse was who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet or what it looked like. Now why a professional sniper would choose to use a low velocity bullet is a head scratcher for me. And no other bullet we know of during the shooting, behaved like a 1000fps type round. Doesn't make any sense to me.
the 45 degrees had to do with what Humes said as he stuck his pinkie in the hole... a bullet entering and then coursing downward (yaw) is not uncommon at all... I do not believe Humes was relating the shooting angle to 45-60 degrees but how the shallow wound felt to him... if he could feel the end of the wound, yet they did not bother to record the removal of a bullet of fragment from that spot... it was either removed earlier or really did fall out of JFK duing cardiac massage and was the pointed bullet Nurse Bell picks up.
As to how a bullet stops in the body... it is all based upon the speed of the bullet. There are rifles that will fire rounds at low-velocity such as .22 LR which leaves the muzzle at 1150fps and slows to 975 at 100 yards.
The bullet Audrey Bell picked up was a pointed nose, very small bullet which can easily explain what caused the back wound.
Finally, here is a FMJ chart on fragmentation at different speeds.... at less than 1500fps (more like 1000fps) we should see no fragmentation and a very shallow wound... (and please realize that the MC, at less than 2000fps should not, COULD NOT have created a trail of minute particles as seen in the xrays... a different type of bullet from the front would have left that trail...
DJ
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]
The President's back wound. - David Josephs - 02-05-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Sorry Gordon....This is the first I've heard Audrey Bell picked up a pointed nose bullet. I thought that was Darrel Tomlinson. Ms. Bell I believe signed over the Connolly wrist fragments to the two Feds.We don't know who the nurse was who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet or what it looked like. Now why a professional sniper would choose to use a low velocity bullet is a head scratcher for me. And no other bullet we know of during the shooting, behaved like a 1000fps type round. Doesn't make any sense to me.
the 45 degrees had to do with what Humes said as he stuck his pinkie in the hole... a bullet entering and then coursing downward (yaw) is not uncommon at all... I do not believe Humes was relating the shooting angle to 45-60 degrees but how the shallow wound felt to him... if he could feel the end of the wound, yet they did not bother to record the removal of a bullet of fragment from that spot... it was either removed earlier or really did fall out of JFK duing cardiac massage and was the pointed bullet Nurse Bell picks up.
As to how a bullet stops in the body... it is all based upon the speed of the bullet. There are rifles that will fire rounds at low-velocity such as .22 LR which leaves the muzzle at 1150fps and slows to 975 at 100 yards.
The bullet Audrey Bell picked up was a pointed nose, very small bullet which can easily explain what caused the back wound.
Finally, here is a FMJ chart on fragmentation at different speeds.... at less than 1500fps (more like 1000fps) we should see no fragmentation and a very shallow wound... (and please realize that the MC, at less than 2000fps should not, COULD NOT have created a trail of minute particles as seen in the xrays... a different type of bullet from the front would have left that trail...
DJ
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]
It is possible I got the nurses mixed up since the evidence I can find does not name the nurse.... :
7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief
James J. Rowley, CE399 "was found amongst the clothes on one of
the stretchers." If that wasn't enough, Governor Connally
stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But
the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me
off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object
fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band.
The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was
the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back,
chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh"
(emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994).
Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning
News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see
Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame).
Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the
gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police,
which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet"
Tomlinson says he picked up a bullet... NOT that he got it from a nurse
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
I have found that asking WHY questions with an expectation of understanding never seems to work.
Why shoot from the front when the patsy is at the back?
Why shoot a low velocity rifle?
Cause they did Gordon....
And since the evidence related to the ballistics and the body is so unreliable, to say there were no other 1000fps bullets fired that day is an impossiblity.
Maybe the manhole gouge was caused by a 22... seems to have come from the same area as the backwound....
or the Tague/curb shot..
or the shot thru the front window..
There are a lot of puzzle pieces still missing Gordon... way too many to declare what the picture actually looks like, imo.
DJ
The President's back wound. - Gordon Gray - 02-05-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Yeah you got your nurses mixed up. The bullet Tomlinson found was a pointed nosed hunting type bullet. The emergency room nurse who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet has never been identified. That bullet was given to a sate policeman who supposedly handed it over to the Dallas Police. Check out Bob Harris' article on the three magic bullets at CTK. As to the velocity, we know from the head fragments, at least one high velocity rifle was used. We also know from Connolly's wounds that a low velocity weapon was not used in that instance. Also the bullet that wounded Tague would not have been low velocity. Assuming these people were professional shooters the only reason for low velocity weapons would be if they were shooting close rather than from a distance. It makes no sense that the reason for a shallow back wound would be the result of a low velocity weapon. What were the possible points of origin? The TSBD, Daltex, or the Records Building. No one would use a low velocity weapon firing from those positions. As to the 45 degree angle, I believe Humes also used a probe on the wound as well as his finger. And others saw the probe going in at a steep angle. Bullets can behave in unpredictable ways, but if it strikes the presidents back at a downward angle it is likely to turn inward, rather than downward, because the top side of the bullet hits first while the underside continues to travel at it's initial velocity. Why did they shoot from the front if they were trying to frame a patsy? Because their prime objective was to insure that the president would be killed; they had to have frontal shooters for that. I have often wondered whether it really mattered to them whether the evidence pointed to single shooter or not. As long as Oswald could be shown to be one of the shooters and his connections to Castro established, it wouldn't really matter to the plan that he had accomplices.Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Sorry Gordon....This is the first I've heard Audrey Bell picked up a pointed nose bullet. I thought that was Darrel Tomlinson. Ms. Bell I believe signed over the Connolly wrist fragments to the two Feds.We don't know who the nurse was who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet or what it looked like. Now why a professional sniper would choose to use a low velocity bullet is a head scratcher for me. And no other bullet we know of during the shooting, behaved like a 1000fps type round. Doesn't make any sense to me.
the 45 degrees had to do with what Humes said as he stuck his pinkie in the hole... a bullet entering and then coursing downward (yaw) is not uncommon at all... I do not believe Humes was relating the shooting angle to 45-60 degrees but how the shallow wound felt to him... if he could feel the end of the wound, yet they did not bother to record the removal of a bullet of fragment from that spot... it was either removed earlier or really did fall out of JFK duing cardiac massage and was the pointed bullet Nurse Bell picks up.
As to how a bullet stops in the body... it is all based upon the speed of the bullet. There are rifles that will fire rounds at low-velocity such as .22 LR which leaves the muzzle at 1150fps and slows to 975 at 100 yards.
The bullet Audrey Bell picked up was a pointed nose, very small bullet which can easily explain what caused the back wound.
Finally, here is a FMJ chart on fragmentation at different speeds.... at less than 1500fps (more like 1000fps) we should see no fragmentation and a very shallow wound... (and please realize that the MC, at less than 2000fps should not, COULD NOT have created a trail of minute particles as seen in the xrays... a different type of bullet from the front would have left that trail...
DJ
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]
It is possible I got the nurses mixed up since the evidence I can find does not name the nurse.... :
7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief
James J. Rowley, CE399 "was found amongst the clothes on one of
the stretchers." If that wasn't enough, Governor Connally
stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But
the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me
off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object
fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band.
The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was
the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back,
chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh"
(emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994).
Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning
News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see
Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame).
Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the
gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police,
which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet"
Tomlinson says he picked up a bullet... NOT that he got it from a nurse
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
I have found that asking WHY questions with an expectation of understanding never seems to work.
Why shoot from the front when the patsy is at the back?
Why shoot a low velocity rifle?
Cause they did Gordon....
And since the evidence related to the ballistics and the body is so unreliable, to say there were no other 1000fps bullets fired that day is an impossiblity.
Maybe the manhole gouge was caused by a 22... seems to have come from the same area as the backwound....
or the Tague/curb shot..
or the shot thru the front window..
There are a lot of puzzle pieces still missing Gordon... way too many to declare what the picture actually looks like, imo.
DJ
The President's back wound. - Phil Dragoo - 02-05-2013
David
Interesting observation from your #12 above:
Mr. Rankin. That is what they first said
And we all know that what was FIRST SAID, if it made the LN case against Oswald impossible, was summarily changed.
This passage does not exist in the EXISTING AUTOPSY REPORT.
Humes burned a draft and a first version per Horne's analysis.
AARB's treatment of Humes should've extended to enhanced interrogation--his insolent defiance was poor cover for the continuing lie. The nonexistent occipital inshoot had to be moved up four inches/ten centimeters to account for the fragment trail emanating from a temple inshoot.
Regarding: there was a very small caliber shot to the throat with a bullet lodged in his neck
Perry and others were clear the nature of the throat wound. Such description was fatal to the Big Lie; Elmer Moore badgered Perry all Friday night. Later Specter and Dulles would pile on.
The question "where would such a bullet have gone" was addressed by Custer to Gunn and Horne:
BEGIN EXCERPT
[FONT=&]Douglas Horne, Inside the Assassinations Record Review Board, Volume II, Chapter Five: The Autopsy X-Rays, pages 530-2:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer Examines the X-Rays of the Body[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The noteworthy highlights of Custer's review of the x-rays of the body was Jeremy's attempt to see whether Custer could identify metal fragments near any of the cervical vertebrae, which Custer had mentioned earlier in the deposition.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Jeremy showed Custer x-ray no. 9, a view of the chest prior to removal of the lungs, and the exchange went as follows:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Previously, you referred to there being metal fragments in the cervical area. Are you able to identify any metal fragments in this x-ray?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Not in this film.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Does this film include a view or an exposure that would have included such metal fragments?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: No sir.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Where would the metal fragments be located?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Further up in there. This region.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Can youand you're pointing to?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Up into the, I'd say, C3/C4 region.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Jeremy asked Custer to review x-rays no. 8 and 10, of the right shoulder and chest, and left shoulder and chest, respectivelyboth are images following the removal of the heart and lungs. Custer could not identify metal fragments in either x-ray.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Later, Jeremy asked Custer the following questions:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Now, you had raised, previously in the deposition. . .the possibility of some metal fragments in the C3/C4 range.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: I noticed I didn't see that.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: You didn't see any x-rays that would be inthat would include the C3/C4 area?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: No sir.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Are you certain that you took x-rays that included theincluded C3 and C4?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Yes, sir. Absolutely.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: How many x-rays did you take that would have included that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Just one. And that was all that was necessary, because it showedright there.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: And what, as best you recall, did it show?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: A fragmentation of a shell in and around that circular exitthat area. Let me rephrase that. I don't want to say "exit," because I don't know whether it was exit or entrance. But all I can say, there was bullet fragmentations [sic] around that areathat opening.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Around C3/C4?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Right.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn" And do you recall how many fragments there were?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Not really. There was enough. It was very prevalent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Did anyone make any observations about metal fragments in the C3/C4 area?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: I did. And I was told to mind my own business. That's where I was shut down again.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: You have, during the course of this deposition, identified three x-rays that you are quite certain that you took, but don't appear in this collection. Are there any others that you can identify as not being included?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: That's the only three that come to my mind right now; the two tangential views, and the A-P cervical spine.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Okay.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: Can I add something to that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Gunn: Sure.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Custer: In my own opinion, I do believe, basically, the reason why they are not here is because they showed massive amounts of bullet fragments.[/FONT]
END EXCERPT
Humes initially stated the back wound coursed down at a steep angle, ended shallowly. Then a call regarding a bullet in the lost and found led him to posit it was dislodged in resuscitation. Later the lungs were removed and a direct line to Hoover's office was installed through the pleural membrane.
Pronunciamentos of Humes, Boswell and Finck are based upon a priori conclusions delivered by superior officers.
Then we have Gerald Ford whose Portrait of the Assassin features the Ronco Moveable Wound.
Effort and consternation but no track: http://www.realhistoryarchives.com/collections/assassinations/jfk/icebulls.htm
The President's back wound. - David Josephs - 02-05-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Yeah you got your nurses mixed up. The bullet Tomlinson found was a pointed nosed hunting type bullet. The emergency room nurse who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet has never been identified. That bullet was given to a sate policeman who supposedly handed it over to the Dallas Police. Check out Bob Harris' article on the three magic bullets at CTK. As to the velocity, we know from the head fragments, at least one high velocity rifle was used. We also know from Connolly's wounds that a low velocity weapon was not used in that instance. Also the bullet that wounded Tague would not have been low velocity. Assuming these people were professional shooters the only reason for low velocity weapons would be if they were shooting close rather than from a distance. It makes no sense that the reason for a shallow back wound would be the result of a low velocity weapon. What were the possible points of origin? The TSBD, Daltex, or the Records Building. No one would use a low velocity weapon firing from those positions. As to the 45 degree angle, I believe Humes also used a probe on the wound as well as his finger. And others saw the probe going in at a steep angle. Bullets can behave in unpredictable ways, but if it strikes the presidents back at a downward angle it is likely to turn inward, rather than downward, because the top side of the bullet hits first while the underside continues to travel at it's initial velocity. Why did they shoot from the front if they were trying to frame a patsy? Because their prime objective was to insure that the president would be killed; they had to have frontal shooters for that. I have often wondered whether it really mattered to them whether the evidence pointed to single shooter or not. As long as Oswald could be shown to be one of the shooters and his connections to Castro established, it wouldn't really matter to the plan that he had accomplices.Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Sorry Gordon....This is the first I've heard Audrey Bell picked up a pointed nose bullet. I thought that was Darrel Tomlinson. Ms. Bell I believe signed over the Connolly wrist fragments to the two Feds.We don't know who the nurse was who picked up the Connolly thigh bullet or what it looked like. Now why a professional sniper would choose to use a low velocity bullet is a head scratcher for me. And no other bullet we know of during the shooting, behaved like a 1000fps type round. Doesn't make any sense to me.
the 45 degrees had to do with what Humes said as he stuck his pinkie in the hole... a bullet entering and then coursing downward (yaw) is not uncommon at all... I do not believe Humes was relating the shooting angle to 45-60 degrees but how the shallow wound felt to him... if he could feel the end of the wound, yet they did not bother to record the removal of a bullet of fragment from that spot... it was either removed earlier or really did fall out of JFK duing cardiac massage and was the pointed bullet Nurse Bell picks up.
As to how a bullet stops in the body... it is all based upon the speed of the bullet. There are rifles that will fire rounds at low-velocity such as .22 LR which leaves the muzzle at 1150fps and slows to 975 at 100 yards.
The bullet Audrey Bell picked up was a pointed nose, very small bullet which can easily explain what caused the back wound.
Finally, here is a FMJ chart on fragmentation at different speeds.... at less than 1500fps (more like 1000fps) we should see no fragmentation and a very shallow wound... (and please realize that the MC, at less than 2000fps should not, COULD NOT have created a trail of minute particles as seen in the xrays... a different type of bullet from the front would have left that trail...
DJ
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4697[/ATTACH]
It is possible I got the nurses mixed up since the evidence I can find does not name the nurse.... :
7) LBJ Library document-Memorandum to File-According to Chief
James J. Rowley, CE399 "was found amongst the clothes on one of
the stretchers." If that wasn't enough, Governor Connally
stated in his autobiography called "In History's Shadow"," But
the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me
off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object
fell onto the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band.
The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. It was
the BULLET FROM MY BODY, the one that passed through my back,
chest, and wrist, and worked itself loose from my thigh"
(emphasis added-p.18; "The Investigator" Feb-May 1994).
Corroborating Connally's memory, from the 11/21/93 Dallas Morning
News interview with Henry Wade:" I also went out to see
Connally, but he was in the operating room(note the time frame).
Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the
gurney that Connally was on...I told her to give it to the police,
which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet"
Tomlinson says he picked up a bullet... NOT that he got it from a nurse
Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you recollect what the FBI man asked you about?
Mr. TOMLINSON. Just about where I found the bullet.
I have found that asking WHY questions with an expectation of understanding never seems to work.
Why shoot from the front when the patsy is at the back?
Why shoot a low velocity rifle?
Cause they did Gordon....
And since the evidence related to the ballistics and the body is so unreliable, to say there were no other 1000fps bullets fired that day is an impossiblity.
Maybe the manhole gouge was caused by a 22... seems to have come from the same area as the backwound....
or the Tague/curb shot..
or the shot thru the front window..
There are a lot of puzzle pieces still missing Gordon... way too many to declare what the picture actually looks like, imo.
DJ
Again Gordon... I don't think that "fragments" needs to lead to a very high velocity shot as opposed to a bullet designed to break apart. Even if the FMJ bullet hits at 3000fps, which it didn't, there are no "dust-sized particles" created as we see in the xrays.
I make no assumptions here Gordon, you are. Concluding the Tague bullet "would not be low velocity" requires something to support that... and I see nothing that does so.
Your ASSUMPTIONS about professional shooters is also dubious... ANGRY CUBAN SHOOTERS? maybe... the only "pro" imo was the man shooting from the front right.
"It makes no sense" or "No one would use..." are yet others statement I try to stay away from as the CONTEXT of the statement cannot be understood. In many iterations of the "plan" what seems not to make sense fits perfectly well.
One should remember that the original plan was to implicate Oswald in a Communist Conspiracy (just read the Alvarado/Duran reports to see what the CIA was setting Oswald up for) so they could invade Cuba with popular support.
(Peter Dale Scott Phase 1) and that when this option was quickly removed from consideration... Phase 2 - the Lone Nut. and magically the "commie" and Conspirator becomes the most unconnected Lone Nut Assassin ever. (Alvarado is discredited and sent safely to Nicaragua... Duran's stories are fully discredited.... CIA never actually explains how Oswald - who supposedly goes to Mexico trying arrange passage thru Cuba to Russia - magically becomes a LONE NUT...
IF he was in Mexico then he was part of a conspiracy with payments and escape routes...
IF he was not in Mexico... why did the CIA claim he wasandr believe Alvarado and Duran?
From the moment the limo goes under the overpass the Cover-up and Conspiracy was in full swing.
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What you might want to ask youself... with all the films/cameras/photos "confiscated" by the FBI/SS virtually immediately with some disappearing forever...
Why do you suppose they dealt with Zapruder with kid gloves? They could have very easily said this was assassiantion evidence and taken it from him...
By allowing the film to become THE account of the assassiantion, the altered final version becomes accepted without question.
Too bad they didn't treat Beverly Oliver or Gordon Arnold's images with such kindness...
The President's back wound. - Anthony DeFiore - 06-05-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:Anthony DeFiore Wrote:IMHO, I think there were two shooters in the Dal Tex bldg and one on the County Building. One of the Dal Tex shooters hit JFK in the back at the same time as a shot entered his throat. As for the "second back wound", that could have come from the shooter on the County Bldg. I think the County Bldg shooter fired three shots at the limo. He hit JFK in the back (45), he hit Connally in the back and then he hit Connally in the wrist as Connally began to lay in his wife's lap.Here is a view from the Daltex window. There appears to be nothing to obstruct a shot at the time the president seems to be hit initially on the Z film, unless the shooter was even more incompetent a shot than LHO. [ATTACH=CONFIG]4690[/ATTACH]A 45 degree angle would be too steep for the top of any of the buildings around the turn at Elm St. Keep in mind the angle from the 6th floor window at the point was less than half that steep. So the question remains, what would cause the shallow wound at a 45 degree angle, other than a deflection from the tree in front of the 6th floor window, and how could it have been deflected at the time the president is first hit? I have always thought that the wound in the throat was the result of a shot from the front. Pat Speer's theory that the shot that hit the president in the lower occiput exited from the throat, makes some sense to me, but it would have had to have happened much later than the first shot.
I am open to the idea that the "shooters" from the Dal Tex building could have hit JFK twice in the back. One may have been deflected causing a fragment to enter his back in such a shallow manner. Perhaps the Dal Tex shooters were on the third or fourth floor of the building which may have caused the 45 degree angle?
I do not know if anyone has looked at JFK's back brace which may have been high enough on his back to slow the bullet into his back at such a superficial rate. I have always believed that the autopsy photo of his back showed two wounds that were later "drawn" out of the sketches done later.
Additionally, the angle into JFK's back at 45 may have been the bullet fired from the County Building as he lurched over towards Jackie Kennedy after Z225.
Just thinking....TD
I really think that attaining a 45 degree angle is possible from the County Records Building at Z224/225...that hits Connally. The shot that hit the President was at a 16 degree angle and all signs point to the Dal Tex Windows.