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+--- Thread: Overlay of films shot in DP (/Thread-Overlay-of-films-shot-in-DP)
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 06-05-2013
Thanks Gordon...
I appreciate what Bob has done yet I don't agree with some of his conclusions.
Bob's video has the limo turning wide onto Elm and nowhere near the curb.
The silenced shot was described as a FIRECRACKER... the examples he uses could in no way be confused for a firecracker...
Yet I do believe that there were witnesses who stated they saw dust kick up in the street behind the limo as it turned onto Elm. Which may have been caught on Zapruder and why it is gone.
I honestly cannot understand Bell, Towner and Martin though.
I also see JFK doing the same thing with his hands while waving numerous times thru-out the motorcade...
Bob is onto many interesting option... yet they require a bit more critical thought imo....
Overlay of films shot in DP - Gordon Gray - 06-05-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Thanks Gordon...I don't see any time during the motorcade where Kennedy stops waving, balls his fist and flinches, prior to when he is actually shot. Perhaps you can point several of these instances out. I don't thinks the firecracker sound necessarily had to be associated with this particular shot. I think all of the shooters save one were using suppressors. Other wise more people would have heard more than 3 shots.
I appreciate what Bob has done yet I don't agree with some of his conclusions.
Bob's video has the limo turning wide onto Elm and nowhere near the curb.
The silenced shot was described as a FIRECRACKER... the examples he uses could in no way be confused for a firecracker...
Yet I do believe that there were witnesses who stated they saw dust kick up in the street behind the limo as it turned onto Elm. Which may have been caught on Zapruder and why it is gone.
I honestly cannot understand Bell, Towner and Martin though.
I also see JFK doing the same thing with his hands while waving numerous times thru-out the motorcade...
Bob is onto many interesting option... yet they require a bit more critical thought imo....
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 06-05-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Thanks Gordon...I don't see any time during the motorcade where Kennedy stops waving, balls his fist and flinches, prior to when he is actually shot. Perhaps you can point several of these instances out. I don't thinks the firecracker sound necessarily had to be associated with this particular shot. I think all of the shooters save one were using suppressors. Other wise more people would have heard more than 3 shots.
I appreciate what Bob has done yet I don't agree with some of his conclusions.
Bob's video has the limo turning wide onto Elm and nowhere near the curb.
The silenced shot was described as a FIRECRACKER... the examples he uses could in no way be confused for a firecracker...
Yet I do believe that there were witnesses who stated they saw dust kick up in the street behind the limo as it turned onto Elm. Which may have been caught on Zapruder and why it is gone.
I honestly cannot understand Bell, Towner and Martin though.
I also see JFK doing the same thing with his hands while waving numerous times thru-out the motorcade...
Bob is onto many interesting option... yet they require a bit more critical thought imo....
I will go and see about finding examples.... yet I also do not take Bob's explanation of what we are seeing at that moment.
Look at z133... and the first few frames. JFK is finishing this wave that Bob claims is a defensive reaction to a shot. and by z170 or so he is once again raising his hand to wave which lasts until he goes behind the sign.
I believe the loss of those 7-8 frames are responsible for his conclusions as he does not see the rest of the action there, nor is he in a position to claim what JFK felt at that moment based on a 1/18 of a second frame capture.
If z133 is not the end of THAT wave then it is the end of yet another wave that started and ended in a few frames. I do not see how the rest of JFK's movements work with Bob's conclusion
DJ
Overlay of films shot in DP - Gordon Gray - 07-05-2013
David Josephs Wrote:In the Towner film you can clearly see Kennedy clench his fist. Then 7 excised frames later you can clearly see Kennedy has shifted his position and is the process of returning to his original position. Interpret this behavior any way you like, but it is there. It is not however present on any part of the Z film prior to his being hit initially. So this must have happened at some point prior to the beginning of the Z film. What makes you think the frame from the Towner film showing his fist clenching, corresponds to Z133?Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Thanks Gordon...I don't see any time during the motorcade where Kennedy stops waving, balls his fist and flinches, prior to when he is actually shot. Perhaps you can point several of these instances out. I don't thinks the firecracker sound necessarily had to be associated with this particular shot. I think all of the shooters save one were using suppressors. Other wise more people would have heard more than 3 shots.
I appreciate what Bob has done yet I don't agree with some of his conclusions.
Bob's video has the limo turning wide onto Elm and nowhere near the curb.
The silenced shot was described as a FIRECRACKER... the examples he uses could in no way be confused for a firecracker...
Yet I do believe that there were witnesses who stated they saw dust kick up in the street behind the limo as it turned onto Elm. Which may have been caught on Zapruder and why it is gone.
I honestly cannot understand Bell, Towner and Martin though.
I also see JFK doing the same thing with his hands while waving numerous times thru-out the motorcade...
Bob is onto many interesting option... yet they require a bit more critical thought imo....
I will go and see about finding examples.... yet I also do not take Bob's explanation of what we are seeing at that moment.
Look at z133... and the first few frames. JFK is finishing this wave that Bob claims is a defensive reaction to a shot. and by z170 or so he is once again raising his hand to wave which lasts until he goes behind the sign.
I believe the loss of those 7-8 frames are responsible for his conclusions as he does not see the rest of the action there, nor is he in a position to claim what JFK felt at that moment based on a 1/18 of a second frame capture.
If z133 is not the end of THAT wave then it is the end of yet another wave that started and ended in a few frames. I do not see how the rest of JFK's movements work with Bob's conclusion
DJ
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 07-05-2013
Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:In the Towner film you can clearly see Kennedy clench his fist. Then 7 excised frames later you can clearly see Kennedy has shifted his position and is the process of returning to his original position. Interpret this behavior any way you like, but it is there. It is not however present on any part of the Z film prior to his being hit initially. So this must have happened at some point prior to the beginning of the Z film. What makes you think the frame from the Towner film showing his fist clenching, corresponds to Z133?Gordon Gray Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Thanks Gordon...I don't see any time during the motorcade where Kennedy stops waving, balls his fist and flinches, prior to when he is actually shot. Perhaps you can point several of these instances out. I don't thinks the firecracker sound necessarily had to be associated with this particular shot. I think all of the shooters save one were using suppressors. Other wise more people would have heard more than 3 shots.
I appreciate what Bob has done yet I don't agree with some of his conclusions.
Bob's video has the limo turning wide onto Elm and nowhere near the curb.
The silenced shot was described as a FIRECRACKER... the examples he uses could in no way be confused for a firecracker...
Yet I do believe that there were witnesses who stated they saw dust kick up in the street behind the limo as it turned onto Elm. Which may have been caught on Zapruder and why it is gone.
I honestly cannot understand Bell, Towner and Martin though.
I also see JFK doing the same thing with his hands while waving numerous times thru-out the motorcade...
Bob is onto many interesting option... yet they require a bit more critical thought imo....
I will go and see about finding examples.... yet I also do not take Bob's explanation of what we are seeing at that moment.
Look at z133... and the first few frames. JFK is finishing this wave that Bob claims is a defensive reaction to a shot. and by z170 or so he is once again raising his hand to wave which lasts until he goes behind the sign.
I believe the loss of those 7-8 frames are responsible for his conclusions as he does not see the rest of the action there, nor is he in a position to claim what JFK felt at that moment based on a 1/18 of a second frame capture.
If z133 is not the end of THAT wave then it is the end of yet another wave that started and ended in a few frames. I do not see how the rest of JFK's movements work with Bob's conclusion
DJ
I don't believe I ever say that Gordon... in fact I go on to say that if it is NOT the end of the Towner wave, it's the end of yet another wave BEFORE yet another one at z170.
"If z133 is not the end of THAT wave then it is the end of yet another wave that started and ended in a few frames."
We can both agree that at z133-z140 JFK is indeed lowering his hand from waving.... this can either be the Towner wave (if you can line it up with the TSBD) or a subsequent, very quick one...
Whether JFK is experiencing pain or not - is NOT something I believe one can tell from a frame of a movie. If he was hit he certainly does not give any impression he was before going behind the sign as he turns from side to side and continues to wave... and what appears to me as smiling. (I started a z175-207 gif, but all you need do is look at the stabilized version of the Zfilm.
I do think though that something occurs at 157 that is removed from the film. We can see JFK's head turn much too fast for reality or VERY quckly in response to the shot that I think occurs THEN, and not at the corner.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4726[/ATTACH]
and here is his hand wave... the last frame is AFTER the splice. I think it important to put this wave in context... there is one if not two more of these waves prior to z220... He can be seen brushing his hair and squinting his eyes through the motorcade as well as in other motorcades. Not a single corrobrating witness puts a shot occurring BEFORE the turn...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4727[/ATTACH]
Please look carefully at a163, 164, 165...
John Connally:We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt
Seems to me he is referring to this turn at z163, following the z157 shot, and does exactly as he testified to... he turns right to the crowd then more right to see JFK... then begins his turn back to the left... from the gif above we see that JC had not started to turn like JFK has by 158... or just following the damaged frame.
Cheers
DJ
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Overlay of films shot in DP - Anthony DeFiore - 08-05-2013
Excellent work David! TD
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 08-05-2013
Anthony DeFiore Wrote:Excellent work David! TD
Thanks TD...
I think way too much has been MISTAKENLY offered that Connally's turn was AFTER z224...
I don't think the same shot that hits JC's chest also hits his wrist... OR his leg for that matter.
But since we never got to see (or even be made aware of) ALL the bullet evidence found... we can never really know.
If we begin to see JC's comments as they relate to z157 much more makes sense in his testimony... he never actually turns BACK over his left shoulder - he simply falls into Nellie's lap as she pulls him.
I also believe that multiple shots were fired simultaneously which accounts for why some hit and some missed..
They were not all bad shots, the target moved as a result of being hit.
DJ
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 10-05-2013
THAT turn remains very important....
If the rest of the alteration math is correct, the limo needed to be moved up Elm 30 feet...
and if there was a delay there, AND a delay when the limo all but stopped... the filmed sequence HAD to take up more than 6 feet of film.
If one looks, we find quite a few people describing the first shot MUCH closer to the corner than z190... at 157 as I think.... yet then why remove the turn? What does lying about the wide turn accomplish...
Trying to do some outloud thinking
Cheers
DJ
Below isthe unedited transcript from interviews with witnesses to the Kennedyassassination:
Rosemary Willis Roach, her sister Linda Willis Pool, and motherMarilyn Willis; Bill and Gayle Newman; Pierce Allman; Bobby Hargis and JamesLeavelle. Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski
Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houstonto Elm Street,they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing thesound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that Iheard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for whatI heard.
Overlay of films shot in DP - Phil Dragoo - 10-05-2013
David
Expanding a view of the witnesses you began it seems the firecracker signaled the opening of hunting season. Why indeed is the turn (and so many frames) missing from Zapruder:
Rosemary: When I could first see them, they were coming down Main and I could just see them coming. And then they make the turn onto the next street, which is Houston, and so when they make that turn, that's about the time that there was a kid on the corner that had an epileptic seizure. Or appeared to have an epileptic seizure. Which was most interesting because an ambulance came, and if you followed this story, nothing ever became of that. We'll discuss that later. Anyway, no hospital ever received him. Anyway, I always thought at the time that person acted real strangely. Even at age 10, it didn't look like a normal emergency epileptic seizure. There was something strange about it.
Linda: It seemed staged.
Rosemary: Yeah.
Linda: We thought it seemed staged.
Marilyn: But there was a woman that took her handkerchief and dipped it in the reflecting pool there and wiped his brow. She really did.
Rosemary: Anyway, it seemed strange to me. Then the next thing I know, the limousine is turning the corner again. Onto Elm. From Main to Houston to Elm. And so, just as they start, they've just made that turn, they're going along, and the first gun shot was fired. Immediately, I look up to where I thought I heard the sound, and what I notice is this pigeon, upon the impact ....
Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. Next thing I know, right after that, there's another shot. And after that, there's another shot and another shot. We disagree, between me and her (nodding towards her mom and sister). My ears heard four shots. If you ask me how many I think there were, I really think that there were six, but I heard four and I'll tell you why: the first one, you know I'm right across from Zapruder. I'm wherever the limousine is. It's almost like I could...I'm right there. Anyway, the first shot rang out. It was to the front of me, and to the right of me, up high. The second shot that I heard came across from my right shoulder. By that time, the limousine had already moved further down. And that shot came across my shoulder. And the next one, right after that, still came from the right but not from as far back, it was up some. Still behind me, but not as far back as the other one. And the next one that came was from the grassy knoll and I saw the smoke coming through the trees, into the air.... Fragments of his head ascended into the air, and from my vision, focal point, the smoke and the fragments, you know, everything met. I mean, there's no question in my mind what I saw or what I heard.
Gayle Newman
So we knew the parade route, and we came on downtown, and parked the car, and walked down the street until the crowd thinned out because the children were quite small, and we were standing at the edge of the curb; we'd only been there just a few minutes. You could hear the sounds of the crowd, and the car coming. And as the car turned the corner, and came towards us, we heard a noise. I thought it was a firecracker. And the people in the car reacted, especially President Kennedy. He threw his hands up, I thought he was going, you know, going along with a bad joke. You know, a firecracker, someone popped a firecracker, 'Oh!, my head.... '(mimics waving with both hands), I didn't realize that it was a gunshot at all. Then, as they got closer to us, directly in front of us, when the other shot that [was] shot, you know, the side of his head, you could see the white matter coming out of his head, then red, and we heard her [Jackie] holler, 'Oh my God, no, they shot Jack!' And Bill turned to us and he said, 'That's it. Put the children on the ground.' We put the children on the ground and shielded them with our bodies because we thought we were in, you know, direct crossfire (nervous laugh). I was terrified.
The epileptic seizurehow convenient.
As you suggest there may well have been a stop at the top to warrant the Zapruder edit and the Truly fable.
The stop at Zapruder's position for the head shot cannot be denied.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4754[/ATTACH]
Overlay of films shot in DP - David Josephs - 10-05-2013
What I find also very compelling is somehting I first read in one of Lane's books.
Why connect verbally a firecracker and looking up? The first thought of many of the "Oswald did it" witnesses is that someone was throwing it from a building's open window.
This sound was also described as a motorcycle backfire... again another GROUND LEVEL sound.
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as the parade came by, I watched it from a distance of Elm and Main Street, as it came on to Houston and turned the corner at Houston and Elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. And after the President had passed my position, I really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance I would say, I heard this crack that I positively thought was a backfire.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was backfire?
Mr. BRENNAN. Of a motorcycle.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you observe or hear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the Texas Book Store. And I glanced up. And this man that I saw previous was aiming for his last shot.
Cause looking up to the 6th floor as a result of a motorcycle backfire makes even less sense... so it becomes a firecracker... just cause.
This is Brennen from z140 thru z207.... well past the "first shot firecrakcer/backfire" witnesses described. Do we see him looking up when we KNOW by 207 there were at least 2 such noises?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4755[/ATTACH]
I fail to see how the first sound from the MC, 70 feet up in the air and at 120-150dB depending on the distance, could be confused for a small firecracker/backfire on the street.
Given the descrfiption of the next sounds supposedly from the same weapon.
I believe there is something significant there Phil... this "first sound" seems to occur just as the limo finishes the turn - (honk honk in a basement garage comes to mind)
Mr. B here seems to confirm ALL of the actions of the car and surrounding personnel that has been suggested by so many others..
Given the image from Betz 2 is of the limo with the Towner family in the way - he should have heard the first noise at the end of that turn.
Suprise suprise... none of the Towners were called.
Betzner affidavit:
I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going
off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments
going up in the air. I also saw a man in either the President's car or the car
behind his and someone down in one of those cars pull out what looked like a
rifle. I also remember seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's
hand in the President's car or somewhere immediately around his car. Then the
President's car sped on under the underpass. Police and a lot of spectators
started running up the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a
fence of wood. I assumed that was where the shot was fired from at that time. I
kept watching the crowd. Then I came around the monument over to Main Street. I
walked down toward where the President's car had stopped. I saw a Police Officer
and some men in plain clothes. I don't know who they were. These Police Officers
and the men in plain clothes were digging around in the dirt as if they were
looking for a bullet. I walked back around the monument over to Elm Street where
they were digging in the dirt. I went on across the street and up the embankment
to where the fence is located. By this time almost all of the people had left.