The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Printable Version +- Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora) +-- Forum: Deep Politics Forum (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/Forum-Deep-Politics-Forum) +--- Forum: JFK Assassination (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/Forum-JFK-Assassination) +--- Thread: The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? (/Thread-The-Magic-Tonsillectomy-or-Armstrong-s-Voodoo-Science) |
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Jim Hargrove - 25-03-2014 Wow! I was just getting ready to wade in here, but looks like DJ already closed the case. David, somewhere you have a great cu of Harvey's left arm from the DPD mug shot. Would you post that again? It clearly confirms the autopsy notes that there were no scars from the gunshot wound to his elbow a few years earlier. The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - David Josephs - 25-03-2014 Quote: The doctor named on the insurance application was a "Dr. Philben." His full name was Patrick Donald Philben and he was a doctor of osteopathy; a form of "healing" developed along lines of spiritualist philosophies and hands-on manipulation. In the early days it was closely associated with such pseudo-intellectual attempts to merge science and spiritualism as Theosophy. Drugs were not part of treatment, and surgery was regarded as a last resort. Lee's tonsillitis was treated along osteopathic lines which may have mimicked for instance, a faith healing session in which Marguerite honestly believed the tonsils had been removed. This also makes explicable the lack of hospital records confirming a tonsillectomy. One wonders if non-traditional medicine was introduced to Marguerite by her new husband. All records prior to her meeting Ekdahl show the use of traditional doctors. "Lee Harvey Oswald's Cold War" is a book by Greg Parker... https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/418198 from which he does not site his sources for his paragraph on Dr Philben... nor does he explain why he then makes the connection to Faith-healing other than to use the terms: "MAY HAVE MIMICKED" and "ONE WONDERS" I for one would be interested in what GP has to show us regarding "All records prior to her meeting Ekdahl show the use of traditional doctors" and why speculation of this extreme sort consitutes evidence against anyone and is enough to disprove the word of his mother, the insurance company and the FBI. The report from which information about the tonsilectomy comes from, of all places, yes - an FBI report... which does quote the information listed on the insurance application, much like all the other FBI reports GP uses as supporting evidence for his arguments originate... (see Peggy Zimmerman et al...) Are we actually to believe that information found on FBI reports is not accurate when only based on someone's memory? Or only when it supports his arguments? [ATTACH=CONFIG]5816[/ATTACH] http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=24833435 So I did a little digging on my own... you know, since he is quoting himself as the source of the information and then goes on to hypothesize as to the qualification of the Doctor in question... maybe his presentation was biased by a desire to support a preconceived conclusion.... [TABLE] [TR] [TD]Birth: [/TD] [TD]Mar. 29, 1917 Butte Boyd County Nebraska, USA [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]Death: [/TD] [TD]Jul. 15, 1993 Bristol Ellis County Texas, USA [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD="colspan: 2"] Services for Dr. Patrick Donald Philben, founder of the Grove Medical Center Clinic in Pleasant Grove, will be at 11 a.m. Saturday at Grove Hill Funeral Home Chapel in Dallas. Burial will follow at Grove Hill Memorial Park. Dr. Philben, 76, died of cancer Tuesday at his ranch home in Bristol, east of Waxahachie. The Butte, Neb., native graduated from Kirksville College of Osteopathy in Kirksville, Neb., in 1938. One year later, Dr. Philben founded the Columbia Clinic in old East Dallas. He then moved to Pennsylvania and completed his residency at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathy. He returned to Dallas and founded the Grove Medical Center Clinic in 1947. He also served as president of the American College of Osteopathic Pediatricians in 1954 and was an associate clinical professor at the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine in Fort Worth. Dr. Philben served as chief of staff at several local hospitals over the years, including Dallas Memorial Hospital in old East Dallas. In 1985, he moved his practice to Family Medical Center in Far North Dallas, where he remained until mid-May. Memorials may be made to the southeast Dallas branch of the YMCA. [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] http://digitalcommons.hsc.unt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1041&context=topjournal In the April 1945 issue of "Texas Otheopathic Physicians Journal" on page 27: Dallas County Osteopathic Association Election Dr. Patrick D. Philben was elected president of the Dallas County Osteopathic Association at the meeting at Stoneleigh Hotel, Thursday night, April 12th. Other officers elected are Dr. Robert H. Lorenz, vice-president,and Dr. Gladys F. Pettit, secretary-treasurer, re-elected. Dr Philben here seems to have been fairly respected by the medical profession in TX, as was Osteopathic Medicine.... and not a single mention of faith-healing, calling on spirits or the laying on of hands.... So what really is Osteopathic medicine? Osteopathic medicine is a branch of the medical profession in the United States. Osteopathic physicians (D.O.s) are licensed to practice medicine and surgery in all 50 states and are recognized in sixty other countries, including all Canadian provinces. Frontier physician Andrew Taylor Still founded the profession as a rejection of the prevailing system of medical thought of the 19th century. Still's techniques relied on holistic measures such as the manipulation of joints and bones to diagnose and treat illness, and he called his practices "osteopathy". By the middle of the 20th century, the profession had moved closer to mainstream medicine, adopting modern public health and biomedical principles. American "osteopaths" became "osteopathic medical physicians", ultimately achieving full practice rights as medical doctors in all 50 states, including serving in the U.S. armed forces as physicians.[1][2] So obviously Lee's mother was subject to - in the words of no one else other than Greg Parker: "a faith healing session in which Marguerite honestly believed the tonsils had been removed" In reailty, Mr P does not have any evidence at all the tonsilectomy was never performed other than concluding the information provided an insurance company by the man's mother as recorded by the FBI's investigation into the matter was the result of some charade perpetrated by a TX medical doctor. Cause as we all know, determining whether the accused (and now dead) killer of the president had his tonsils out in 1945 by December 9, 1963 (less than 3 weeks after a man was gunned down in the DPD basement) would be instrumental in reinforcing his guilt... ;;okay:: I wonder if there were any other ALTERNATIVE healing practices that GP can disparage as being linked to faith-healing? The history of Chiropractic began in 1895 when Daniel David Palmer of Iowa performed the first chiropractic adjustment on a partially deaf janitor, Harvey Lillard, who then mentioned a few days later to Palmer that his hearing seemed better.[1] This led to Palmer opening a school of chiropractic two years later Despite their similarities, osteopathic p[B]ractitioners sought to differentiate themselves by seeking licensure to regulate the profession calling chiropractic a "bastardized form of osteopathy"[3] In 1907 ina test of the new osteopathy law, a Wisconsin based chiropractor was charged with practicing osteopathic medicine without a license. Practicing medicine without a license led to many chiropractors, including D.D. Palmer, being jailed.[3] [/B] The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Albert Doyle - 26-03-2014 Greg R Parker Wrote:"Points"? I thought this was about facts. Silly me. It makes sense that if Oswald was missing other scars this physical discrepancy deserves more consideration. In my mind in 1945 a tonsillectomy was a tonsillectomy. That was a minor surgical procedure that removed the tonsils. In 1945 could a doctor get away with not doing the formal definition of the procedure while referring to it in writing as a tonsillectomy? I think it would be both a violation of law and medical ethics to describe a procedure that wasn't done. Since tonsils are known to infect easily and cause problems would a medical doctor risk his license by not removing the tonsils when they could then infect and have to be removed later? What would the doctor say if the patient had serious complications from tonsils that weren't removed? How would he explain it as a registered doctor in Texas prone to medical standards? Any chance there's no record of this because the handlers knew it would create a physical conflict between the doubles? That the hospital records were destroyed exactly because of that potential conflict? The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Jim Hargrove - 26-03-2014 Since medical records were not presented for this procedure by the FBI, the insurance form is all John had to work with. Expecting him to find another report more than 50 years later is silly. But Oswald probably had a tonsillectomy. Tonsils CAN grow back, but they usually don't. The fact that one Oswald had tonsillitis is an indication--though not proof--that he was different than the Oswald who had the procedure. One side of this debate is working awfully hard to make this simple situation sound impossible when, in fact, it is the MOST LIKELY conclusion from the available evidence. That's all. This CU of Harvey Oswald's left elbow at DPD headquarters seems to confirm the autopsy report indicating no scar is visible from the gunshot wound Lee Oswald acquired just six years earlier. [ATTACH=CONFIG]5817[/ATTACH] The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Bob Prudhomme - 26-03-2014 Greg R Parker Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:"The doctor named on the insurance application was a "Dr. Philben." His full name was Patrick Donald Philben and he was a doctor of osteopathy; a form of "healing" developed along lines of spiritualist philosophies and hands-on manipulation. In the early days it was closely associated with such pseudo-intellectual attempts to merge science and spiritualism as Theosophy. Drugs were not part of treatment, and surgery was regarded as a last resort. Lee's tonsillitis was treated along osteopathic lines which may have mimicked for instance, a faith healing session in which Marguerite honestly believed the tonsils had been removed. This also makes explicable the lack of hospital records confirming a tonsillectomy. One wonders if non-traditional medicine was introduced to Marguerite by her new husband. All records prior to her meeting Ekdahl show the use of traditional doctors." You do not seem to comprehend that a doctor of osteopathy, in the United States, is given the title of doctor not because this form of treatment is recognized as good medicine but, rather, because an osteopath must be trained as a medical doctor. You also make a number of totally groundless assumptions. Simply because LHO was seen by Dr. Philben in 1945 does nothing to prove or disprove whether or not he was a licenced medical doctor. And, despite his osteopathic beliefs, how do you know he did not regularly refer his patients for tonsillectomies? Unless Margeurite Oswald believed LHO's tonsils were removed by magic, which I highly doubt, she more than likely believed LHO's tonsils had been removed, simply by the extreme discomfort her child would have been in for many days following the tonsillectomy. Finally, if you are disturbed by the lack of medical records verifying LHO had received a tonsillectomy, how do you feel about all of the other "missing" material in the JFK case? The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014 Albert Doyle Wrote:Greg R Parker Wrote:"Points"? I thought this was about facts. Silly me. It makes sense because you are still relying on Armstrong's voodoo science. I will explain further IN THE APPROPRIATE THREAD. The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014 Quote:You do not seem to comprehend that a doctor of osteopathy, in the United States, is given the title of doctor not because this form of treatment is recognized as good medicine but, rather, because an osteopath must be trained as a medical doctor. Again Robert, kudos for giving this a good old fashioned try. Unfortunately you're pissing into the wind again. Osteopaths were NOT recognized until the 1970s in the US as shown below: "Despite opposition from orthodox practitioners, osteopaths retained their independence and by the end of the 1970s had become legally eligible for unlimited practice licensesas D.O.sin every state. No longer in danger of being labeled quacks and cultists, osteopaths were transformed into members of a parallel profession'' struggling to avoid losing its unique identity. By the end of the nineteenth century, as osteopaths gained a mea- sure of professional recognition, they found themselves battling both medical doctors and osteopathic imitators.'' http://fx.damasgate.com/osteopaths-and-chiropractors/ RP: "You also make a number of totally groundless assumptions. Simply because LHO was seen by Dr. Philben in 1945 does nothing to prove or disprove whether or not he was a licenced medical doctor." GP: Yes it does. See above. RP: "And, despite his osteopathic beliefs, how do you know he did not regularly refer his patients for tonsillectomies?" GP: Because that would be the same as Posner referring someone to the Deep Politics Forum for the answers to Dealey Plaza. RP: "Finally, if you are disturbed by the lack of medical records verifying LHO had received a tonsillectomy, how do you feel about all of the other "missing" material in the JFK case?" GP: I'm not disturbed by it any more than I am disturbed by anything else that doesn't exist. Like say, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny or "Harvey". The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014 David, very kind of you to underscore my point by posting that By the middle of the 20th century, the profession had moved closer to mainstream medicine, adopting modern public health and biomedical principles. American "osteopaths" became "osteopathic medical physicians", ultimately achieving full practice rights as medical doctors in all 50 states, including serving in the U.S. armed forces as physicians. By the MIDDLE of the 20th Century the profession had moved CLOSER to mainstream medicine. But see also my reply to Bob. It was not until the late 1970s that these quacks were granted any sort of right to practice as DOs (Doctors of Osteopathy). And even then, it only happened as a result of a doctor shortage. Desperate times call for desperate measures and allowing these quacks to officially use the title "Dr" was about as desperate as it gets. See: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2706&dat=19721004&id=0QpbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ik4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=902,1779246When did Philben get his qualifications? 1943. When did Oswald see him? At the beginning of 1945. Quote:I for one would be interested in what GP has to show us regarding "All records prior to her meeting Ekdahl show the use of traditional doctors" and why speculation of this extreme sort consitutes evidence against anyone and is enough to disprove the word of his mother, the insurance company and the FBI. Do your own homework, DJ. I did mine. My book has more source notes than most books Many more. No book cites every single sentence. That seems to be your requirement of me. Wonder why? If you can find a record showing that Marguerite consulted osteopaths, chiropractics, faith healers, medicine men, or witch doctors prior to seeing Philben, I'd be grateful for you posting that info. Unlike some, I WANT my work examined, scrutinized and put under a microscope and for any errors to be pointed out to me so they can be fixed for later editions. The word of Marguerite? I have already said I think she believed her son did have a tonsillectomy. You're kidding about the insurance company surely? The Insurance Company has nothing to do with this. Marguerite gave them the information. They did not corroborate it. The FBI? Once again, you're either kidding or pig ignorant of how the FBI operates. FBI reports are not validation of what is contained in the report. The report is... just that... a report of what someone said, or what some document says. Again, the FBI did not corroborate or even endorse the information. You are, in every sense of the word, unbelievable. But as I have said before, even if I allow this fantasy that somehow someone who eschews surgery as an option, did actually perform a tonsillectomy, it matters not one whit to the reliance on the word of Armstrong. As you now admit, tonsils can and do grow back in some cases. That you keep wanting to change the topic is telling. I will get to those other areas, I assure you. That you and your cohorts here want to proclaim victory is also telling. You think if you say it loud and long enough, some might actually believe it. That's a well worn propaganda tactic. Can you think of any group who used it previously? Quote:The report from which information about the tonsilectomy comes from, of all places, yes - an FBI report... which does quote the information listed on the insurance application, much like all the other FBI reports GP uses as supporting evidence for his arguments originate... (see Peggy Zimmerman et al...) Your ignorance is a beacon to all believers! If it's not accurate, it's not because it relied upon anyone's memory. The FBI had the insurance form, if memory serves. And that form was completed by Marguerite, who wrote that LHO had had a tonsillectomy. There was only a 3 month gap between when Philben had been consulted and when the insurance form was completed. Hardly enough time to "forget" something like that. But once again, if Philben used the usual flim-flam manipulation techniques of his profession and led Marguerite to believe he had performed a tonsillectomy, I don't think Marguerite would disbelieve him. He was a "doctor", after all! Quote:Dr Philben here seems to have been fairly respected by the medical profession in TX, as was Osteopathic Medicine.... and not a single mention of faith-healing, calling on spirits or the laying on of hands.... The flim-flam man was highly respected... by other flim-flam merchants ROLFMAO! Ah, but what about the fact that "Dr. Philben served as chief of staff at several local hospitals over the years, including Dallas Memorial Hospital in old East Dallas." I hear you ask. Good question, DJ. That was AFTER the time that these quacks were granted pretend doctor credentials to fill the critical shortfall of real doctors. Quote:In essence, Mr P does not have any evidence at all the tonsilectomy was never performed other than the information provided an insurance company by the man's mother as recorded by the FBI's investigation into the matter. Cause as we all know, determining whether the accused (and now dead) killer of the president had his tonsils out in 1945 by December 9, 1963 (less than 3 weeks after a man was gunned down in the DPD basement) would be instrumental in reinforcing his guilt... Do I have this right? You expect me to prove a negative. It is up to you and your gang to prove your contention that LHO had a tonsillectomy. How about hospital records, referrals... anything? All you have is Marguerite's BELIEF that Lee had such an operation. That belief was written on an insurance application and repeated in an FBI report. Neither of the latter mean anything at all except that they act to RECORD Marguerite's BELIEF. In short, you have next to nothing -- which sums up the whole H & L smoke and mirrors evidence. Let me give you a clue. Philben is listed as the the person who performed the operation. Now you guys are trying relegate him to merely someone who referred patients to hospitals for such operations... so let's run with that trunk load of manure and see how far we get? In order for Philben to refer anyone for a tonsillectomy (or indeed, perform one himself), he would have needed to refer the patient to a REGULAR doctor first, who would then refer the patient to the hospital. Why is that? Refer back to the top. Philben was not licensed to refer patients for operations. The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014 Albert Doyle Wrote:Greg R Parker Wrote:"Points"? I thought this was about facts. Silly me. Oswald was not missing any scars. Your urgent need to change the subject is becoming a bit annoying. I will get to the scars IN A DIFFERENT THREAD. When I eviscerate you on that issue, what will you then be trying to change the subject to? Can you give me a hint so I can prepare in advance? Thanks. You really want to talk about ethics? You are now trying to cling to the tonsillectomy. It your right of course, to make an absolute ass of yourself. Which is what this exposes: The Old Harvey and Lee site: http://harveyandlee.comze.com/Tonsillectomy/Tonsils.htm MAGIC TONSILLECTOMY, |