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+--- Thread: FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK (/Thread-FBI-Evidence-Proves-Oswald-s-Ammunition-was-not-Capable-of-Sufficient-Accuracy-to-Kill-JFK)
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 30-03-2014
Quote:Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition.
Bob, I'm not trying to be annoying but how does 6.7mm = 6.5mm? Are you saying the wider Schoenauer bullet was loosely labeled 6.5?
Edit: Nevermind. I went back and read the fine difference between the 264 and 268 bullet.
.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Lauren Johnson - 30-03-2014
Bob, this is off-topic. Apologies. Maybe another thread.
How does the initial discovery of a Mauser play into this if at all?
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 30-03-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:Quote:Now, if we process that, we find that 6.7 mm = .263779" or *SURPRISE!!!* .264", the standard diameter of every 6.5mm bullet in the world except the Carcano, and exactly the bullet I suspected was loaded into the WCC ammunition.
Bob, I'm not trying to be annoying but how does 6.7mm = 6.5mm? Are you saying the wider Shoenauer bullet was loosely labeled 6.5?
Edit: Nevermind. I went back and read the fine difference between the 264 and 268 bullet.
Don't feel bad, Albert. I read articles on the Internet all the time written by gun "experts" who describe the "bore diameter" of a Carcano rifle as being .268" (6.8 mm), when, in reality, the bore diameter of a Carcano is .256" (6.5 mm). It's amazing how many people like to throw the terms "bore diameter" and "groove diameter" around, and not have a clue what the difference is between the two.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Lauren Johnson - 30-03-2014
Lauren Johnson Wrote:Bob, this is off-topic. Apologies. Maybe another thread.
How does the initial discovery of a Mauser play into this if at all?
I guess to answer my own question: Nothing. The Mauser disappeared.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 30-03-2014
Lauren Johnson Wrote:Bob, this is off-topic. Apologies. Maybe another thread.
How does the initial discovery of a Mauser play into this if at all?
Hi Lauren
I'm still on the fence about whether or not the rifle originally discovered was, in reality, a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine, and I have a very good reason for being undecided. Look at the two photos below:
6.5x52 mm Carcano M91/38 short rifle (model of rifle found on 6th floor of TSBD)
7.65x53 mm Argentine Mauser carbine
As you can see, the two rifles bear a strong resemblance to each other, mostly because of the protruding magazines and the side mounted sling attachments. I would have remembered the Argentine Mauser's unusually large front sight guard myself with the wooden forestock going all the way to this sight but, I am a stickler for details. As the 7.65 Argentiner Mauser was also commonly found in military surplus stores, it may be that Seymour Weitzman had seen several of these Mausers while working in a sporting goods store, and honestly believed that is what this rifle was.
OTOH, the rifle on the 6th floor may very well have been a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine. As I said, the jury is still out on this one.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 31-03-2014
Albert
It just occurred to me that Frazier, in his WC testimony, never actually said he measured the diameter of CE 399 and that, with the unfired cartridge found in the Carcano, he would not have had to measure the diameter of CE 399, with its slightly flattened base. The unfired cartridge would have a bullet in pristine condition, and it is more than likely this is where he obtained the diameter of 6.65 mm from.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 31-03-2014
I knew there was something wrong there because the flattening was enough to seriously throw it off when you get down to small measurements.
So the Italians made .268 width bullets for the Carcano? The Schoenauer bullet was slightly narrower at .264
Eisenberg and Frazier indicate they examined CE 141:
https://www.google.com/search?q=CE+141&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9uU4U7fOBOnhsASH4YGoAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw&biw=1253&bih=658#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=mpicrc0b2kUQaM%253A%3B4aCq2obs2OIUdM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.maryferrell.org%252Fwiki%252Fimages%252F4%252F4d%252FPhoto_naraevid_CE141-1.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.maryferrell.org%252Fwiki%252Findex.php%252FPhotos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Cartridges%3B600%3B478
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 31-03-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:I knew there was something wrong there because the flattening was enough to seriously throw it off when you get down to small measurements.
So the Italians made .268 width bullets for the Carcano? The Schoenauer bullet was slightly narrower at .264
Eisenberg and Frazier indicate they examined CE 141:
https://www.google.com/search?q=CE+141&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=9uU4U7fOBOnhsASH4YGoAw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw&biw=1253&bih=658#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=mpicrc0b2kUQaM%253A%3B4aCq2obs2OIUdM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.maryferrell.org%252Fwiki%252Fimages%252F4%252F4d%252FPhoto_naraevid_CE141-1.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.maryferrell.org%252Fwiki%252Findex.php%252FPhotos_-_NARA_Evidence_-_Cartridges%3B600%3B478
Yes, it would be more prudent for Frazier to have measured CE 141, although it was only the rear section of CE 399 that was flattened. The forward section of CE 399 was still in its original shape.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 31-03-2014
Maybe Frazier got his information from a weapons source known to FBI?
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 31-03-2014
Wherever he got it from, he screwed up majorly. I searched high and low and the only 6.65 mm diameter bullet ever made was for an experimental Swiss rifle being designed for NATO.
Frazier made many other serious mistakes (accidental or deliberate, not sure which) in his testimony to the WC. In fact, it is hard to recall anything he actually managed to get right.
Here is one of my favourites from Frazier's WC testimony. As far as I know, I am the only person to have ever clued into this one, and I've been unable to generate any interest in it. In this excerpt, Frazier is discussing the mangled bullet recovered from the home of General Walker, how Frazier was able to measure that bullet, mathematically determine the bullet's diameter as .267" and establish from this that the bullet had to be a Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano bullet.
"Mr. EISENBERG - Can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07 inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or 13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately .267 inch."
So, remember the diagram I showed you of the barrel interior, showing the "lands and grooves" of the barrel's riflings? Frazier took the bullet and found part of the circumference of the base to be intact. On this section, he was able to measure the width of one land impression and found it to be .070" (1.778 mm) wide. He was also able to measure the width of one groove impression, and found it to be .130" (3.302 mm). As there were four land impressions and four groove impressions, establishing the circumference was as simple as:
4 x .070 + 4 x .130 = .800" as the circumference of the bullet
As you know, diameter equals circumference divided by pi (3.1416)
This is what Frazier did and, being the genius he was, arrived at a diameter again of .267". What a hero!
However, if we do the math ourselves, we come up with a different number.
.800 divided by 3.1416 = .2546473 or .255" NOT .267"
What a coincidence! This is almost precisely the bore diameter of a 6.5mm Carcano rifle. Now, was Frazier a seriously confused individual? Was he deliberately lying to the WC? Was he just too lazy to measure the lands and grooves, and instead, reverse engineered the number, mistakenly starting with the bore diameter (.256") instead of the bullet diameter (.2677")?
Or was there something else going on here?
Here is another excerpt from Frazier's WC testimony, in which he makes another error he was never called on:
"Mr. EISENBERG - Well, no; not at this time.
Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber?
Mr. FRAZIER - That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the equivalent of 6.5 mm."
Mr. Frazier is conveying a very popular misconception, one that is totally wrong yet very widespread in the shooting world. How this guy ever got to be a firearms "expert" is beyond me, although I must admit there was a time I also believed this statement to be true.
It is very confusing to look at the numerical designation of rifles, as they can be quite misleading. For example, you wouldn't think that a rifle named the .250 Savage and one named the .257 Roberts would both shoot the same diameter of bullet, would you?
Here is the explanation. The .25 calibre rifles all have a calibre (bore diameter) of .250", unlike the 6.5mm rifles, which have a bore diameter of .256". The groove diameter (also bullet diameter) of a .25 calibre rifle is .257" (sound familiar?) while the groove and bullet diameter of a Carcano rifle is .2677". Quite a difference, Mr. Frazier, and no, the 6.5mm rifles are NOT the equivalent of the .25 calibre rifles.
That being said, was the bullet Frazier measured, from the Walker residence, fired from a .25 calibre rifle, and not a 6.5mm Carcano? It would certainly match the measurements in his testimony.