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+--- Thread: Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets (/thread-12983.html)
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 23-08-2014
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:There is a great possibility the bullets were all fired from 6.5mm Carcanos, though not necessarily M91/38 short rifles, and that the bullets were all of the same design. This is what has taken so long to figure out.
There is also a possibility the 6.5mm Carcano cartridges were made in Italy and were as little as one year old.
Why in the World would professional sharpshooters/mechanics/hit-men use such an old, inaccurate, even noisy rifle - and the crummy bullets that fit it...makes NO sense at all. One rifle was perhaps one of them [not in Oswald's hands!] - but more likely a more modern and sophisticated rifle or weapon that could fire 'Carcano' rounds using a sabot, or also of the same caliber or re-bored to be. This was a high-tech crossfire assassination - only the best of everything was used. I find it absurd that M-C's were used. That wasn't even the first or second gun found in the TSBD...but the third, likely planted, one.
Not all 6.5mm Carcanos, in 1963, were old, inaccurate or noisy. Some were used by Italian shooting teams in international competitions well into the 1960's. Neither were the range bullets, manufactured post World War Two and used by these competition shooters, to be considered inaccurate.
If you believe in the sabot myth, or the loading of a 6.5mm Carcano bullet into a more powerful rifle of the same calibre myth, please tell me the make and model of the rifle you would use for such an endeavour.
The main point is that the very accurate model of Carcano had the same rifling pattern as the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor, and bullets fired from these rifles would be indistinguishable.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 24-08-2014
As there is a belief that all 6.5mm Carcanos were inaccurate rifles, and this belief is likely to interfere with the presentation of my work, perhaps we should discuss Carcano rifles before we go further.
Specifically, why would Carcanos be considered inaccurate?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 25-08-2014
I'll give everyone a couple of more days to opine about Carcano rifles, and then continue with what I promised.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Jim DiEugenio - 27-08-2014
Bill, concerning your opening question, DPF will survive, I mean they survived a mutiny, they survived the excesses of CD. THe question is what is happening at Spartacus?
It looks on the verge of teetering over.
Has Dolva dropped out of the management team?
Are the new owners really going to pony up the cash each month? Even though the site looks like it moribund?
I hope they do and come up with some new ideas. It looks like they are going to need them.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Magda Hassan - 27-08-2014
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:As there is a belief that all 6.5mm Carcanos were inaccurate rifles, and this belief is likely to interfere with the presentation of my work, perhaps we should discuss Carcano rifles before we go further.
Specifically, why would Carcanos be considered inaccurate?
The reputation of the Carcanos as an inaccurate weapon goes back some time. Weren't they known as the 'Humanitarian Rifle' since they had hardly actually ended up killing many in any wars? Is this just some slur against the Italians as a military force in much the same way the Italians car makers get slagged off for their supposed dodgy electrical systems and vehicle reliability compared to the German car makers? Or is it based on objective evidence? Are all rifles much the same or are there distinct variations from brand to brand or even model to model?
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 27-08-2014
The term "Humanitarian Rifle" was actually begun by Italian troops and the inspiration for this name had nothing to do with accuracy. Jacketed bullets were introduced in the late 19th Century as rifles evolved from large bore, low velocity weapons into small bore, high velocity weapons. As the bores got smaller, and velocities higher, unjacketed lead bullets were found to quickly foul the riflings of the smaller bored barrels, and the copper alloy jackets prevented this. However, as the jackets were full metal jackets, it was quickly discovered that a jacketed bullet went straight through a person without inflicting a lot of damage, as opposed to the earlier large-bore unjacketed chunks of lead bullets that deformed and splattered easily in a wound and did LOTS of damage.
This problem was made even worse by the long narrow design of the 6.5mm Carcano bullet, making it into a "flying drill". Ideally, a bullet should tumble in a wound, making a big mess, but the Carcano FMJ bullet greatly resisted this. Short bullets destabilize and tumble in wounds MUCH better. Hence, the "Humanitarian Rifle" name.
To show just how great this problem was, the British Indian army, in sheer desperation, issued the "dum dum" bullet. This was the .303 British Mk. III cartridge and was essentially the original round nosed bullet with the nose of the jacket removed, exposing the lead core. This was actually the first soft tipped bullet. Later developments in the Mk. IV and Mk. V were actually the same bullet but with a hollow point this time. As all of these designs were expanding bullets, they had far greater stopping power against native tribesmen than did the full metal jacket bullets.
These bullets were SO effective, and made such nasty wounds, they were outlawed at the 1899 Hague Peace Conference as being inhumane. The British were in a dilemma; they wanted to adhere to the rules but they also wanted a bullet that didn't require shooting an enemy four or five times with to knock him down.
The design they came up with and stayed with, through two world wars, is the MK. VII spitzer seen above. The first thing they changed was the round nose bullet; replacing it with a spitzer point. The reason for this is that, while the round nose tends to punch its way through bone and such, the spitzer point, when it hits bone, tends to get deflected easier. This makes the bullet begin tumbling in a wound and tearing up great amounts of tissue. This effect is enhanced in the Mk. VII bullet by making the forward section of the core from aluminum and the rear section from lead, as seen in the diagram above. As the mass of the bullet was disproportionate from nose to base, when the bullet struck bone the heavier base would try to pass the lighter nose and the bullet would tumble.
The long round nosed Carcano 6.5mm bullet was the exact opposite of the Mk. VII, and that is why the Carcano never seemed to kill anyone. When, in 1938, the Carcano was reborn in the 7.35x51mm short rifle, a serious attempt was made to imitate the .303 Mk. VII bullet, as we all know that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. The 7.35mm bullet had a spitzer point, like the MK. VII, and had the same aluminum nose/lead base core as the Mk. VII. Unfortunately for the Italians, production of the 7.35mm Carcanos ended in 1939, and the non-lethal 6.5mm cartridge was brought back.
This is only one reason why the Carcanos received a bad reputation. I will explain a few more in the next post.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Dawn Meredith - 27-08-2014
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:There is a great possibility the bullets were all fired from 6.5mm Carcanos, though not necessarily M91/38 short rifles, and that the bullets were all of the same design. This is what has taken so long to figure out.
There is also a possibility the 6.5mm Carcano cartridges were made in Italy and were as little as one year old.
Why in the World would professional sharpshooters/mechanics/hit-men use such an old, inaccurate, even noisy rifle - and the crummy bullets that fit it...makes NO sense at all. One rifle was perhaps one of them [not in Oswald's hands!] - but more likely a more modern and sophisticated rifle or weapon that could fire 'Carcano' rounds using a sabot, or also of the same caliber or re-bored to be. This was a high-tech crossfire assassination - only the best of everything was used. I find it absurd that M-C's were used. That wasn't even the first or second gun found in the TSBD...but the third, likely planted, one.
Totally agree with Peter. I can't believe anyone can seriously advocate this nonsense. The best sharpshooters were employed with the best weaponry.
Dawn
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Drew Phipps - 27-08-2014
Three spent casings (bottom view), images from Gil Jesus.
I don't know the origin of these images. Gil Jesus uses this picture to "prove" that the casing on the right was "dry-fired," in that the hammer mark on the primer is in deeper shadow and therefore a deeper indentation than the other shells. (I don't see it myself.)
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Dawn Meredith - 27-08-2014
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:Bill, concerning your opening question, DPF will survive, I mean they survived a mutiny, they survived the excesses of CD. THe question is what is happening at Spartacus?
It looks on the verge of teetering over.
Has Dolva dropped out of the management team?
Are the new owners really going to pony up the cash each month? Even though the site looks like it moribund?
I hope they do and come up with some new ideas. It looks like they are going to need them.
I see Greg Burnham there a lot but only shamelessly pushing his website.
Inexplicable Wounds made by Special Bullets - Bob Prudhomme - 27-08-2014
Dawn Meredith Wrote:Peter Lemkin Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:There is a great possibility the bullets were all fired from 6.5mm Carcanos, though not necessarily M91/38 short rifles, and that the bullets were all of the same design. This is what has taken so long to figure out.
There is also a possibility the 6.5mm Carcano cartridges were made in Italy and were as little as one year old.
Why in the World would professional sharpshooters/mechanics/hit-men use such an old, inaccurate, even noisy rifle - and the crummy bullets that fit it...makes NO sense at all. One rifle was perhaps one of them [not in Oswald's hands!] - but more likely a more modern and sophisticated rifle or weapon that could fire 'Carcano' rounds using a sabot, or also of the same caliber or re-bored to be. This was a high-tech crossfire assassination - only the best of everything was used. I find it absurd that M-C's were used. That wasn't even the first or second gun found in the TSBD...but the third, likely planted, one.
Totally agree with Peter. I can't believe anyone can seriously advocate this nonsense. The best sharpshooters were employed with the best weaponry.
Dawn
Hi Dawn
You clearly have the same misconceptions and misunderstandings about rifles and ballistics that Mr. Lemkin does. Stick around and I will show you how it was entirely possible JFK was shot with Carcano rifles.
P.S. As I said earlier, if you believe all Carcano rifles were junk, please tell me what it is about them that makes them junk.