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+--- Thread: DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed (/Thread-DVP-Take-the-Money-Order-Image-to-your-bank-and-ask-them-if-it-was-processed)
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Drew Phipps - 20-11-2015
So, Tom B., since you have relevant first hand experience in these matters, can you tell us if those stamped endorsements were universal back in the 60's?
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Tom Bowden - 21-11-2015
Two Items
1) actual money exchange between banks for processed checks was by either Bankwire or Fedwire during the 60's. On a local basis, checks were presented at the clearinghouse and balance adjustments between banks were performed by various agreements.
2) Some banks used the cashier's stamp as an endorsement. Others processed checks through semiautomatic check processing systems such as the IBM803 series (also called a Proof Machine.) The endorsement could be stamped in the machine. Not all banks used this option. In 1961, IBM introduced the 1401 computerized check processing system and endorsement by machine was expanded.
I do not know what process First National Bank of Chicago used in 1963. I do know that they were behind the industry, when Bob Wilmouth became President in the 1970's. I was deeply involved in large bank automation beginning in 1972.
I am afraid I can not shed any real light on Klein Money Order from direct experience.
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Jim Hargrove - 21-11-2015
Tom Bowden Wrote:Two Items
1) actual money exchange between banks for processed checks was by either Bankwire or Fedwire during the 60's. On a local basis, checks were presented at the clearinghouse and balance adjustments between banks were performed by various agreements.
2) Some banks used the cashier's stamp as an endorsement. Others processed checks through semiautomatic check processing systems such as the IBM803 series (also called a Proof Machine.) The endorsement could be stamped in the machine. Not all banks used this option. In 1961, IBM introduced the 1401 computerized check processing system and endorsement by machine was expanded.
I do not know what process First National Bank of Chicago used in 1963. I do know that they were behind the industry, when Bob Wilmouth became President in the 1970's. I was deeply involved in large bank automation beginning in 1972.
I am afraid I can not shed any real light on Klein Money Order from direct experience.
Thank you for this information, Mr. Bowden. If a Postal money was endorsed in an IBM 803 or 1401 system, would some proof of that endorsement appear on the front or back or both of the paper money order?
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Tom Bowden - 21-11-2015
"Thank you for this information, Mr. Bowden. If a Postal money was endorsed in an IBM 803 or 1401 system, would some proof of that endorsement appear on the front or back or both of the paper money order?" As I recall it was the back but I am not sure.
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Jim Hargrove - 21-11-2015
​Thanks again. In the past week, both John Armstrong and Jim DiEugenio have interviewed bankers who have said that validation stamps were required on Postal money orders deposited at banks; Sandy Larsen has produced and provided links to laws and regulations from 1925, 1987, and 2001 also calling for bank stamps on deposited PMOs. The legal writing on the back of the alleged Hidell money order itself also mentions "bank stamps," clearly anticipating their appearance.
This document--the alleged payment for the rifle that allegedy killed President John Kennedy--was never processed, cashed, or deposited, exactly as John Armstrong has been saying for twenty years. More evidence that it is a bogus document, including a detailed theory on how and by whom it was fabricated, will be appearing soon on the H&L website.
I think that general acceptance of the simple fact that the Hidell money order was never cashed, deposited or processed will be a real breakthrough in this case. It is right up there with CE399 (the magic bullet), except it is even more difficult to deny.
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Drew Phipps - 21-11-2015
Tom: Do any of the systems you are familiar with from that time period use punch holes, or is it all ink?
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Jim Hargrove - 22-11-2015
Hopefully Tom will reply when he has a chance, but I'm not sure the question is relevant here.
The rectangular holes were punched at the printing office when the MOs were made and represent the serial number in Hollerith code, and the round holes were punched at the issuing Post Office and, in this case, represent 021.45, the face value of the instrument in dollars. There do not appear to be any other punches in the document.
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Tom Bowden - 22-11-2015
The IBM equipment did not punch holes in the original documents. Remember they were made to process checks, which were mostly paper at the time. The 1401 sorted the checks as well by bank routing number
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Drew Phipps - 23-11-2015
Ok, so I'm convinced that Tom B. has settled that particular question.
One other thing I re-read today, which might be pertinent, was Harry D. Holmes' narrative of the Dallas events. In his narrative, he specifically avers that Post Service moved their money order processing center from Kansas City to Washington DC "just two months earlier," and also that that fact was apparently unknown to the FBI, who called him to ask for his assistance after failing to locate the paperwork in Kansas City.
I vouch not for Holmes' self-serving version of history (which BTW includes a gunshot after the head wound), but do note that this makes the overnight tracking down of the mail order rifle and associated paperwork far less likely.
DVP - Take the Money Order Image to your bank and ask them if it was processed - Jim Hargrove - 23-11-2015
Oh, man, Dallas Postal Inspector/FBI informant Harry Holmes had all the materials, equipment and connections to have fabricated this money and to have inserted it into evidence. Some lowlights of Holmes's many contributions:
* Holmes was the first person to report the money order serial number after, he said, he located the stub in Dallas, although that stub disappeared, as did his memory of who gave it to him.
* Holmes reported that Oswald paid $12.78 for the MC rifle after locating a similar version in Field & Stream mag. The $12.78 purchase price held up for nearly a week, and was reported in many newspapers, until the Dial Ryder encounter didn't pan out and the rifle now had to include a scope, which increased the price. The new price, of course, magically appeared on the money order.
* Months before the assassination, Holmes informed SA James Hosty that Oswald was in touch with FPCC.
* Unlike anyone else present at Oswald's final interrogation, Holmes "heard" LHO say he had been to Mexico City AND that he had been shown a certain postal money order.
* Other than Marina, I can't think of anyone else more helpful in helping to create and 'splain the case against LHO.