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+--- Forum: JFK Assassination (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/fora/forum-3.html)
+--- Thread: Help Needed (/thread-14412.html)
Help Needed - Drew Phipps - 05-01-2016
I note that Humes reports Perry saying the bloody air was coming from the tracheotomy site. Could the tear in the trachea, observed by Perry, (presumably caused by a bullet or fragment thereof) cause blood to seep into the trachea and result in bloody air bubbles later?
Help Needed - Dawn Meredith - 05-01-2016
David Josephs Wrote:Not really the point Bob...
The Parkland ER staff was going to do any and everything to try and save JFK... With an acknowledged chest injury, tubes are SOP....
In reality the tracheotomy was alos a waste - but they tried everything. He was dead in the limo.
What are you trying to get at Bob?
He was dead soon's his head was half blown off, so I never understood the trach, but given who the patient was the doctors must have been beyond mortified.
Help Needed - Bob Prudhomme - 06-01-2016
Drew Phipps Wrote:I note that Humes reports Perry saying the bloody air was coming from the tracheotomy site. Could the tear in the trachea, observed by Perry, (presumably caused by a bullet or fragment thereof) cause blood to seep into the trachea and result in bloody air bubbles later?
No, Perry specifically referred to air bubbles in the mediastinum, which includes the trachea. If JFK was not breathing for himself, and assisted ventilation was suspended while the tracheostomy was performed, what could be making the bubbles? Perry understood this quite well, and this is why his observation of air bubbles prompted him to call for the insertion of chest tubes into the pleural cavities, in order to vent trapped pressure within them.
Help Needed - Bob Prudhomme - 06-01-2016
Dawn Meredith Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Not really the point Bob...
The Parkland ER staff was going to do any and everything to try and save JFK... With an acknowledged chest injury, tubes are SOP....
In reality the tracheotomy was alos a waste - but they tried everything. He was dead in the limo.
What are you trying to get at Bob?
He was dead soon's his head was half blown off, so I never understood the trach, but given who the patient was the doctors must have been beyond mortified.
Really? And you know this how, Dr. Meredith?
Help Needed - Albert Doyle - 06-01-2016
I'd guess Shelley was 5-10 to 5-11 based on rough estimates compared to the height of others in the pictures he was in.
Help Needed - Jim DiEugenio - 06-01-2016
David:
I can't seem to get it to upload but if you google O'Connor, Probe, Vol 8 #3 Nov 2004 it's on page 49.
​I hope you don't mean the Probe Magazine Lisa and I edited.
Because we never had an issue that was 49 pages long.
And Volume 7 was the last set. Which ended in the year 2000.
Help Needed - Drew Phipps - 06-01-2016
I thought that JFK was still periodically breathing when he arrived at Parkland, which surprised the doctors.
Help Needed - David Josephs - 06-01-2016
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:David:
I can't seem to get it to upload but if you google O'Connor, Probe, Vol 8 #3 Nov 2004 it's on page 49.
​I hope you don't mean the Probe Magazine Lisa and I edited.
Because we never had an issue that was 49 pages long.
And Volume 7 was the last set. Which ended in the year 2000.
My bad Jim - I thought it was PROBE when I looked at it
![[Image: Oconnor%20intercostal%20muscle%20bullet_zpsbeelszpz.jpg]](http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/Oconnor%20intercostal%20muscle%20bullet_zpsbeelszpz.jpg)
Help Needed - Michael Cross - 06-01-2016
E]
Off topic, and I apologize for that, but I'm convinced JFK's right cheek has been hand drawn into this photograph. You can see the shading, and a minor light "ghost" that extends into the background.
Help Needed - Bob Prudhomme - 07-01-2016
Drew Phipps Wrote:I thought that JFK was still periodically breathing when he arrived at Parkland, which surprised the doctors.
The Summary of Appendix VIII of the Warren Commission Report, which contains the medical reports of the doctors who worked on JFK and John Connally, gives us the following excerpt. This summary was written by Dr. Kemp Clark, Director of Neurological Surgery.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/app8.htm
"Dr. Carrico noted the President to have slow, agonal respiratory efforts. He could hear a heartbeat but found no pulse or blood pressure to be present. Two external wounds, one in the lower third of the anterior neck, the other in the occipital region of the skull, were noted. Through the head wound, blood and brain were extruding. Dr. Carrico inserted a cuffed endotracheal tube. While doing so, he noted a ragged wound of the trachea immediately below the larynx."
Agonal breathing, from Wikipedia:
"Agonal respiration, gasping respiration or agonal breathing is an abnormal pattern of breathing and brainstem reflex characterized by gasping, labored breathing, accompanied by strange vocalizations and myoclonus.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP]:164, 166[/SUP] Possible causes include cerebral ischemia, extreme hypoxia or even anoxia. Agonal breathing is an extremely serious medical sign requiring immediate medical attention, as the condition generally progresses to complete apnea and heralds death. The duration of agonal respiration can be as brief as two breaths or last up to several hours.[SUP][1][/SUP]The term is sometimes (inaccurately) used to refer to labored, gasping breathing patterns accompanying organ failure (e.g. liver failure and renal failure), SIRS, septic shock, andmetabolic acidosis (see Kussmaul breathing, or in general any labored breathing, including Biot's respirations and ataxic respirations). Correct usage would restrict the term to the last breaths before death.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
Agonal respirations are also commonly seen in cases of cardiogenic shock or cardiac arrest where agonal respirations may persist for several minutes after cessation of heartbeat.[SUP][1][/SUP] The presence of agonal respirations in these cases indicates a more favorable prognosis than in cases of cardiac arrest without agonal respirations. In an unresponsive, pulseless patient in cardiac arrest, agonal gasps are not effective breaths. Agonal respiration occurs in 40% of cardiac arrests experienced outside a hospital environment.[SUP][2][/SUP]
Agonal respiration is not the same as, and is unrelated to, the phenomenon of death rattle."
As the Wikipedia article states, agonal breathing is not true effective breathing but, rather, the last ditch efforts of the brain to obtain oxygen just prior to death occurring. This is why I take to task anyone who tries to argue JFK died instantaneously when the last shot passed through his skull. Although death was inevitable at this point, JFK clung stubbornly to life all the way to Parkland.
It is interesting to examine Dr. Clark's other statement in the summary:
"He could hear a heartbeat but found no pulse or blood pressure to be present."
At first, it may seem that Dr. Clark is contradicting himself, for how could he hear a heartbeat, yet find no pulse?
First, it must be remembered that, with the great loss of blood JFK experienced, he would, of course, be in hypovolemic shock by the time he reached Parkland. As people go into shock from low blood volume, the first thing the body does, in self defense, is to shut down the blood supply to the extremities (arms and legs). Naturally, a radial pulse would not be found in JFK's wrist.
Second, between the low blood volume, and the fact major arteries in JFK's brain had been severed, allowing any pumped blood to simply run into the cranial wound, there would be no back pressure at all in JFK's circulation system, and it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to find a carotid pulse in JFK's throat.
Therefore, it is quite conceivable JFK had a weak and rapid heartbeat yet, by all conventional detection methods, had no pulse.
JFK was alive (just barely) when he arrived at Parkland and, had his wounds not been so severe, was at a point when death could have easily been averted.