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Hill at Oak Cliff - David Josephs - 22-01-2018
Milo Reech Wrote:Quote:I hope the essay helps illuminate a few things for you
A few things, yes, but so far I'm seeing nothing on point relative to Tippit's pistol and Scoggins wild ride. Specifically, who grabbed it and who brought it back and handed it to Croy, before it came into Davenport's possession.
Plenty to read, thanks for the material.
You're right Milo, my bad... posted the wrong CSSS sheet...
Bardin and Davenport go to Methodist to follow up on Tippit. Bardin has the Tippit pistol and along with the Oswald pistol that Davenport has - turns them over to Doughty... who ultimately gives them back to Bentley who releases it.
It's Davenport who claims to have asked for and waited for the bullet taken from Tippit between 1:15 and 1:30....
Yet if we remember correctly, Ted Callaway took Tippit's pistol
Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said, yes.
[/FONT]Mr. SCOGGINS. About 1:30, I guess, approximately 1:30; between 1:30 and 1:35, I would say. We cruised around several blocks looking for him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and [/FONT]went back up to the scene, and he give them the pistol,[/FONT] and that time is when I found out he wasn't an officer.
[/FONT]If Bardin is with Davenport at Methodist with Tippit... who did they give Tippit's pistol to and how does it make its way back to Bardin and all the other Tippit stuff from the hospital?
Hill at Oak Cliff - Milo Reech - 23-01-2018
Quote:Yet if we remember correctly, Ted Callaway took Tippit's pistol
Not likely although it's the usual story. Problem is the person who took Tippit's pistol had to be 1) young; 2) look like a cop; 3) unknown to Russell. Callaway fails at least two out of three. Hill not particularly youthful but a spring chicken compared to Callaway and looked every inch a cop. Russell's the real sticking point. How could he have failed to recognize Callaway?
Another detail that's almost universally accepted is that the fugitive ran down the west side of Patton. AFAIK only Callaway said so, Guinyard & Patterson both said east side. Even Armstrong may have erred in this respect.
[Harold Russell] saw a man hurrying south on the opposite side of Patton...
Harvey & Lee p.854
Harvey & Lee p.854
He cites Russell's 2/23/64 FBI interview, but it contains no reference to either side of Patton.
Patterson's 8/25/64 statement prepared by the FBI for Rankin explicitly states "east side of Patton."
Callaway provided the blind behind which the true identities of Tippit's assassins were concealed.
Hill at Oak Cliff - David Josephs - 26-01-2018
Milo Reech Wrote:Quote:Yet if we remember correctly, Ted Callaway took Tippit's pistol
Not likely although it's the usual story. Problem is the person who took Tippit's pistol had to be 1) young; 2) look like a cop; 3) unknown to Russell. Callaway fails at least two out of three. Hill not particularly youthful but a spring chicken compared to Callaway and looked every inch a cop. Russell's the real sticking point. How could he have failed to recognize Callaway?
Another detail that's almost universally accepted is that the fugitive ran down the west side of Patton. AFAIK only Callaway said so, Guinyard & Patterson both said east side. Even Armstrong may have erred in this respect.[Harold Russell] saw a man hurrying south on the opposite side of Patton...
Harvey & Lee p.854
He cites Russell's 2/23/64 FBI interview, but it contains no reference to either side of Patton.
Patterson's 8/25/64 statement prepared by the FBI for Rankin explicitly states "east side of Patton."
Callaway provided the blind behind which the true identities of Tippit's assassins were concealed.
I may be wrong, but I believe you have some of the key facts jumbled here Milo
Guinyard's last reference to EAST is a mistake... the LEFT side, and "coming out on Patton on the SW corner" suggest, like Calloway's drawing, they saw the same thing
Furthermore, with these witnesses on the EAST side of Patton, none mention this man coming closely by THEM... but away from them traveling WEST on the North side of Jefferson.
Russell's evidence does not refute this... yet at the same time it appears they are crediting RUSSELL with saying something that TED said to SCOGGINS.
[FONT=&]RUSSELL advised upon arriving at the intersection of Tenth and Patton he observed a Dallas uniform police officer lying on the ground in front of a Dallas police car, and from all indication the Dallas police officer was apparently dead. RUSSELL advised the police officer's weapon was lying on the front seat of the Dallas police officer's car. At this point an unknown individual stated to RUSSELL, "Let's take the police officer's gun end go get the S.O.B. who is responsible for this."[/FONT]
Bowley - who arrives prior to all other witnesses save Markham sees Calloway take the pistol from where he left it inside Tippit's car and Scoggins takes him in his cab.
[FONT=&]BOWLEY: As we picked the officer up, I noticed his pistol laying on the ground under him. Someone picked the pistol up and laid it on the hood of the squad car. When the ambulance left, I took the gun and put it inside the squad car. A man took the pistol out and said, "Let's catch him." He opened the cylinder, and I saw that no rounds in it had been fired. This man then took the pistol with him and got into a cab and drove off[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. BALL. The pistol was out of the holster? [/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It was on his right side. He was laying with the gun under him. [/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. BALL. What did you do? [/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. CALLAWAY. I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said, yes.
[/FONT][FONT=&]
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. It either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, I don't know which. [/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. BELIN. What did you see him do? This man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. He picked it up and said, "Let's go see if we can find him?" [/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. SCOGGINS. I thought the man was a kind of police, Secret Service or something, I didn't know, and I take him and we drove around over the neighborhood looking, and I still didn't know what kind--I still thought he was connected with the Police department in some way. [/FONT]
you wrote:
"Patterson's 8/25/64 statement prepared by the FBI for Rankin explicitly states "east side of Patton"
First off, the 8/25/64 statement was his affidavit, the FBI "report" was in January 64.
Second, the 8/25/64 statement does not include the word "EAST" nor any reference to EAST or WEST
What it does say is that PATTERSON was not shown a photo of Oswald and did NOT ID Oswald as the killer... and he'd like that removed from the record...
Suffice to say, his request was never followed up upon - the earlier statement obviously not corrected... and once again the FBI pushes guilt onto Oswald at every turn...
[FONT=&]
AFFIDAVIT
[/FONT][FONT=&]PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF
PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY[/FONT]
[FONT=&]I, B. M. Patterson, being duly sworn, depose as follows:[/FONT]
[FONT=&]I now reside at Apartment 201, Habana Apartments, 1607 North Carroll, Dallas, Texas. On January 22, 1964, I was residing at 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, and was then employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 Lancaster, Dallas, Texas.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]On January 22, 1964, I was interviewed by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation concerning what I had seen on November 22, 1963, as it related to Lee Harvey Oswald, the shooting of Dallas Police Officer, J. D. Tippit, and the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]I have been shown the written report of the results of this interview by Special Agents John T. Kesler and Vernon Mitchem of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, on January 22, 1964.* While this transcription is basically and materially correct, I desire to make the following clarifications in regard to the contents of this report. This modification pertains to the second sentence of paragraph two. I choose to have the second referenced sentence changed to read as follows:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]"A minute or so later, they observed a white male, approximately thirty years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload it. He stopped still and then reloaded the gun."
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]In regard to the last paragraph of this report, I do not at this late date specifically recall having been exhibited a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, at the time of the interview of January 22, 1964, and desire that this paragraph be deleted as an official reporting of that interview.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]I have read this written report and with the exception of the aforementioned notations, it reveals a correct report of what I saw on November 22, 1963.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
Signed this 26th day of August 1964.
(S) B.M. Patterson,
B. M. PATTERSON.
[/FONT][FONT=&](S) B.M. Patterson,
B. M. PATTERSON.
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Date January 23, 1964[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running. When the individual reached the intersection of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Street, he placed the weapon inside his waistband and began walking west on the north side of Jefferson Street. As the individual was walking WARREN REYNOLDS suggested that they follow the individual to determine, his location in order that they could later notify the Dallas Police Department. At this point, he was unaware that a police officer had been shot and thought perhaps that the shooting had resulted from some marital problem. As the individual reached Ballew's Texaco Service Station located in the 600 Block of Jefferson, the individual made a turn in a northerly direction and proceeded behind Ballew's Texaco Service Station where the individual discarded a jacket which was later recovered by the Dallas Police Department. The aforementioned individual was not observed again by either he, PATTERSON, or WARREN REYNOLDS.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
PATTERSON was shown a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD at which time he identified said photograph as being identical with the individual he had observed on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, running south on Patton Avenue with a weapon in his hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]on 1/21/64 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 100-10461[/FONT]
[FONT=&]By Special Agents VERNON MITCHEM and JOHN THOMAS KESLER - gj Date dictated 1/22/64[/FONT]
Hill at Oak Cliff - Milo Reech - 27-01-2018
Quote:I may be wrong, but I believe you have some of the key facts jumbled here Milo
Guinyard's last reference to EAST is a mistake... the LEFT side, and "coming out on Patton on the SW corner" suggest, like Calloway's drawing, they saw the same thing
Guinyard's reference to the southwest corner is the mistake, otherwise he would have testified that the runner crossed Patton at 10th. The testimony on this point is not ambiguous:
Mr. GUINYARD. Just as he come around the corner on Patton, he cut through the yard and missed the corner on 10th and Patton and cut through the yard.
Mr. BAIL. He cut through the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton?
Mr. GUINYARD. That's right.
Mr. BALL. That would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it?
Mr. GUINYARD. The west--southwest corner--the southeast corner is where he started across, but he come out on Patton on the southwest corner.
Mr. BALL. In other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across the yard of the house on the southeast corner?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That's the white house?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; the big two-story white house.
Mr. BALL. Did he cross Patton?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he come down Patton until he got to about 5 feet from the corner of Jefferson and then he turned across and went across to the west corner on Jefferson.
Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side.
WCVIIp397
The Warren report reflects this:
Guinyard claimed that the man ran down the east side of Patton and passed within 10 feet of him before crossing to the other side.
WRp169
Quote:Furthermore, with these witnesses on the EAST side of Patton, none mention this man coming closely by THEM... but away from them traveling WEST on the North side of Jefferson.
They observed the runner from Patton south of Jefferson, who crossed the intersection with Patton at the north side and headed west, no need for a close encounter.
Quote:Bowley - who arrives prior to all other witnesses save Markham sees Calloway take the pistol from where he left it inside Tippit's car and Scoggins takes him in his cab.
Bowley's HSCA version of this incident omits the hood, claiming "he found the officer's revolver on the ground under him" and "picked the weapon up and placed it on the front seat of the scout car." For a completely different version Butler, the ambulance driver, stated:
Upon arrival I noticed an object lying towards the left front wheel of a Dallas Police Dep't marked squad car. After parking the ambulance in front of the squad car, I went to the back of the ambulance where I noticed a pistol lying in the street by the left front tire of the squad car. I picked up the pistol and placed it on the hood and/or fender of the squad car.
There is no foolproof way to arbitrate among the inconsistent statements regarding an essentially trivial event, nor a compelling reason to believe any of them. Elements of truth may reside therein, but extracting them is hazardous.
Quote:First off, the 8/25/64 statement was his affidavit, the FBI "report" was in January 64.
Second, the 8/25/64 statement does not include the word "EAST" nor any reference to EAST or WEST
The affidavit is another document altogether (XVp744). The referenced 1459a document (attached previously) is explicit:
On August 26, 1964, two different photographs were exhibited to B. M. Patterson, at which time Patterson advised that this person (Oswald) is positively and unquestionably the same person he saw at approximately 1:30 p.m., on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, running south down the east side of Patton Avenue between East Tenth Street and East Jefferson Boulevard, Dallas, Texas, with a revolver in his hand.
This August 26 event occurred the day after an August 25 interview. The actual date of the 1459a document is August 27, 1964. Sorry for balling this up.
Complications relative to the numerous statements made by Scoggins (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?15885-William-Scoggins) & Callaway (https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16477-Ted-Callaway) are the subjects of previous threads covering these events. My thinking remains the same, other than vacillating between Olsen & Hill as the cop who commandeered Scoggins' cab.