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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
About Marguerite, I have received the following email from Harry
Dean. I am exploring having him as a guest on "The Real Deal".
James H. Fetzer,
Harry J. Dean has sent you this email from
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php.
Hello Jim,
Been following your posts re; JVB/Oswald with great interest. In
one of yours today re: Mrs. Oswald showing her in 1963-1965 &
later, want to say I had arranged with the then JOE PYNE SHOW
in Los Angeles, CA to bring her here for radio and TV interviews.
They took place likely in early 1965. Mrs. Oswald and I talked
during and after the TV show at length. We had been in touch via
letters & telegrams for some time prior.
Having been an officer in FPCC Chicago 1961, as Oswald was also
later was my reason for contacting Mrs. Oswald after Oswald's
death, thinking I might be of some assistance to her and believing
that Oswald was very likely involved in FPCC and other activities
for the FBI, as was I until mid-1965.
My purpose in arranging for Mrs. Oswald to do THE JOE PYNE
SHOW was to speak with her openly on TV in order to expose
{blow my cover as an informant for the Bureau}
The LA. Bureau had been informed re; my intention and warned
that I must not do it. I did it, blew cover thereby and was after
most of five years out from under that awful existence. The
Bureau hated me as a betrayer.
Mrs.Oswald and I continued in touch until near her death. All this
is just to say your pictures of her referred to above are of the
Mrs. Oswald that I met with and knew very well.
Harry Dean
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Jack,
She is doing what she can without having his book available.
As I see it, she is addressing the photographic evidence you
and John have adduced. I think she is doing a good job of it.
I am sending her a copy of HARVEY & LEE. If she can do all
she is doing without even having his book available to her,
imagine what she may be able to do after she has it in hand.
I will be sure to direct her attention to the points you make.
But what I can't imagine is what you would be posting here
if you actually did have some massive bias against Judyth!
Jim
Jack White Wrote:What JVB IGNORES is the timeline involved!
TWO MARGUERITES lived AT THE SAME TIME, one in Fort Worth
and one in New Orleans. This is DOCUMENTED. There were
two DIFFERENT WOMEN using the name Marguerite Oswald
and each had a son in junior high school AT THE SAME TIME!
The Fort Worth Marguerite worked at Paul's Shoe Store on
Houston Street; the New Orleans Marguerite worked at a hosiery
store on Canal Street. The Fort Worth LHO attended Stripling
Junior High School; the New Orleans LHO attended Beauregard
Junior High School. This is documented!
JVB is MISREPRESENTING the research of John Armstrong!
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 24-03-2010
For those who have not read Armstrong and who do not believe that there were two Marguerites:
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Dixie Dea - 24-03-2010
Hi Harry....
So Marg. was on the Joe Pyne Show in 1965. I could never recall what year it was. During that time, we were living in Pasadena, CA and use to watch Joe Pyne almost every night. Quite a character, with a lot of wackos on there too. But I do recall seeing Marg. on there that night. I don't recall you also being on there though....sorry! However, I can still recall how surprised I was at what all she had to say about her son, which she called Lee Harvey Oswald. I had tried to read all I could find (even then) about JFK conspracy theory...but what all she had to say was new to me. At the time, I was thinking....that poor woman, she just can't accept what her son has done!
At that time, although I did believe there was a conspiracy, I believed that LHO was one of the shooters. Later on, as I studied more, I was able to change my mind.
Dixie
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 24-03-2010
The short fat Marguerite is the one we refer to as the HISTORICAL
MARGUERITE. She is the one Harry met and was on any TV shows
after the assassination. She is the only Marguerite known by most
people. Without fail she always said when talking about LHO,
"MY SON, LEE HARVEY OSWALD", as if programmed to say that.
She used to phone me several times weekly. Once she invited
me to come to her house and I spent over two hours with her
looking at all of her boxes of "evidence". She repeated that phrase
several times. Oddly, she said "MY SON LEE HARVEY OSWALD WAS
AN AGENT OF THE GOVERNMENT AND DID NOT SHOOT ANYONE."
I asked whether he was a SPY. Indignantly, she said NO!
She repeated, MY SON LEE HARVEY OSWALD WAS AN AGENT OF THE
GOVERNMENT; YOU FIGURE IT OUT.
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 25-03-2010
JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK (IN PART):
ABOUT THOSE LATE NIGHT PHONE CALLS:
I also noted that your info said the washateria closed at midnight. As I recall JVB's claim, it was
said to be a 24-hour place, and that the phone calls were often after midnight.
==I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING. I SAID PEOPLE WERE REPORTING THAT LEE NEVER LEFT HIS BOARDING HOUSE ROOM.
I ALSO HAVE PLENTY TO SAY ABOUT THE LAUNDRY. THAT WAS AN EXCUSE TO BE 'OUT'==
WHY? LEE WAS A CAREFUL MAN WITH MONEY. RUTH PAINE TESTIFIED THAT SHE WASHED LEE OSWALD'S CLOTHES. SHE MENTIONS THEY FOLDED CLOTHES THE NIGHT OF THE 21ST -- OSWALD FAMILY STUFF AND HER OWN, WE ASSUME, AS SHE MENTIONS MARINA FOLDING CLOTHES, AND THERE WERE OF COURSE FABRIC DIAPERS.
I HAVE MORE TO SAY, BUT WHY IS LEE OSWALD OUT A MIDNIGHT DOING LAUNDRY WHEN HE CAN GET IT DONE FREE AT PAINES? WHY IS HE OUT A MIDNIGHT INSTEAD OF AT 7 OR 8 OR 9? HE HAS TO LEAVE FOR WORK AT ABOUT 7:30, HAS TO CROSS THAT LONG BRIDGE, TO GET TO WORK -- HAS TO CATCH A BUS TO GE THERE -- HAS TO EAT BREAKFAST BEFORE THAT...PACK HIS LUNCH -- HE ALWAYS PACKED A LUNCH -- SO WHY IS HE OUT SO LATE?
I SAID WE TALKED THE NIGHT OF THE 20TH TO EARLY THE 21ST BY PHONE
FROM ABOUT 11:30 OR SO TO ABOUT 1:00, MAYBE A LITTLE LONGER, LEE'S TIME. THIS IS NOT THAT FAR FROM THE TIME FRAME REPORTED BY THE JANITOR. IF THE PLACE CLOSED AT MIDNIGHT AND HE WAS ASKED TO LEAVE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HALF AN HOUR IF THE PAYPHONE WAS LOCATED OUTSIDE. I COULD HEAR CARS PASSING AND THOUGHT HE WAS CALLING MAYBE FROM NEAR A CONVENIENCE STORE. AS FOR ME, I HAD NO WATCH,BUT LEFT OUR APARTMENT AND WENT TO A SEVEN-ELEVEN A FEW BLOCKS AWAY AND WAITED...IN A PHONE BOOTH.
I DIDN'T THINK MY ESTIMATE COULD BE OFF BY SO MUCH AS HALF AN HOUR, BUT IT COULD.
MY HUSBAND WAS STUDYING FOR HIS GRE [Graduate Record Exam] AND AN ENGLISH EXAM AT THE UNIVERSITY LIBRARY. THE LIBRARY WAS OPEN EXTRA HOURS DURING EXAM TIMES, ON TRIMESTER SYSTEM. IT WAS OPEN UNTIL 3 AM AND I WAS HOME ABOUT AN HOUR OR SO, IN BED BUT UNABLE TO SLEEP.
AS FOR THE MAFIA BETTING LINE, WE HAVE NEWSPAPER ARTICLES ABOUT A MASSIVE BETTING RING BEING UNCOVERED...
HERE WAS ONE IN 1957, SOON AFTER THE APPALACHIA MAFIA ROUNDUP::
"About two weeks after that raid, federal agents broke up a Terre Haute, Ind., gambling operation that handled as much as $10 million in bets during a 10-week period. A federal grand jury was convened to investigate the gambling operation. More than 170 people nationwide were subpoenaed, and Ryan was one of them. The investigation uncovered a nationwide telephone betting system that had wagers on everything from college and professional football to the World Series. Bets on single games were as high as $10,000."
http://www.haciendahotsprings.com/RayRyan.htm
THIS 1964 BOOK--MENTIONS MAFIA BETTING LINES...
Organized Crime / U.S.
...There's an entire chain of mini-conspiracies, ... It's about Mafia influence in U.S. business: trucking, garbage, the meat industry, ...This book also offers an introduction to the world of betting lines, odds makers and ...
Montreal: Pocket Books, 1964. 241 pages.
WE HAD ACCESS TO A MAFIA HORSE RACE BETTING LINE WITH SOME SPECIAL PHONE NUMBERS. AS ONE RESEARCHER WHO INVESTIGATED ME (AND THEN BECAME A SUPPORTER) OBSERVED, AFTER TRACING THE PHONE LINE ROUTES, IN NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM 1964-1965, "MAYBE THE FBI DIDN'T HEAR THEM TALKING, BUT THE MAFIA COULD." THAT WAS SOMETHING WE'D NEVER CONSIDERED...SO I GUESS MONK IS RIGHT ABOUT 'WISDOM' AFTER ALL....
JVB
Quote:[quote name='Jack White' post='187712' date='Mar 24 2010, 08:41 PM']
Thanks for the laundromat information. I had never seen that. As I recall from the DellaRosa forum,
some researcher had researched a possible laundromat and could find none. I cannot remember
the name of the researcher who said there was no laundromat.
I recall that years later when I finally checked out Beckley Street in person, there was a gas station
across from the 1026 rooming house...and no signs of a washateria; the rest was residential.
Perhaps the laundromat was converted later to a gas station. I remember looking on both
Beckley and Zang for a washateria, and could find none...but that was many years later, so it
could have closed.
I also noted that your info said the washateria closed at midnight. As I recall JVB's claim, it was
said to be a 24-hour place, and that the phone calls were often after midnight.
Also, the claim is that somehow a mafia phone line was patched into the pay phone. I cannot
imagine this happening without the knowledge of Southwestern Bell.
Thanks.
Jack
[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='187687' date='Mar 24 2010, 09:50 AM'][quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='187591' date='Mar 23 2010, 09:55 PM']
JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE:
.........
==ON TMWKK THE LOVE AFFAIR AND EVER SINCE 1999 WHEN I FIRST SPOKE OUT, I MENTIONED 14-15 PHONE CALLS BETWEEN OCTOBER 6 AND EARLY AM NOV. 21.==
He would go across Beckley Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall.
==IT HAS NEVER BEEN COUNTERED. A JANITOR IS IN THE MARY FERRELL CHRONOLOGY REPORTING SEEING LEE OSWALD THERE THE LAST NIGHT HE CALLED ME. I DID NOT SAY THAT LEE USED THE LAUNDROMAT EVERY TIME FOR A CALL. I DESCRIBED BEING ABLE TO HEAR CARS PASSING BY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS...NOR DID I CLAIM A PAYPHONE EXISTED INSIDE THE LAUNDROMAT. I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT HIS, THOUGH, THAT THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. IT CASTS ASPERSIONS ON THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF RUTH PAINE ON THE EVENING OF NOV. 21==
Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.
==INACCURATE. THE JANITOR'S LAUNDROMAT REPORT WAS FROM THE FBI.==
Ian Griggs wrote an article called "Kill That Myth!" that appeared in Fair Play Magazine, Fair Play Issue #25, Nov-Dec 1998; it included this information:
CE 3000 is an FBI report of an interview with Leslie Lawson, the owner and manager of Gray's Cleaners, 1209 Eldorado, Oak Cliff on 5th December 1963. Although not stated in the interview notes, that location is only a hundred yards from Oswald's rooming house. Lawson stated that 'he has seen Lee Harvey Oswald on one particular occasion that he can recall and possibly on other occasions which he could not specifically recall.' Mr Lawson then said that approximately a month earlier, Lee Harvey Oswald had entered his cleaning establishment and handed in a tie, white shirt and black pair of trousers for cleaning. Two days later, when Oswald called to collect these items, he had been charged $1.25 and had complained about being charged 25 cents for the cleaning of his tie.
Lawson also stated that he had seen Oswald on several occasions at Sleight's Speed Wash, 1101 North Beckley. This establishment had, in fact, changed its name to Reno's Speed Wash in August 1963. A former Reno's employee, Joseph Johnson, was interviewed by the FBI on 28th July 1964 and stated that on the evening of 20th or 21st November 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was 'washing laundry at Reno's Speed Wash.' Oswald, he said, remained there, reading magazines, until midnight. (CE 3001)
CE3000 can be seen here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0275b.htm
CE3001 can be seen here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0276b.htm
CE3001 does not include the interview of Joe Johnson, but in it, the owner of the laundromat names him as an employee of the laundromat at the time.
CE3009 is the one that actually contains info about the interview with Johnson. It can be seen here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol26_0285a.htm
Johnson, the janitor, worked from 7pm til midnight and reported Oswald was there doing laundry on either the night of the 20th or 21st of November ... he says Oswald did not converse with anyone and sat reading magazines until midnight, when "the merchant patrolman" asked Oswald to leave as the laundromat was closing.
The laundromat, being at 1101 N. Beckley, would, of course, be in the next block and on the other side of the street from O's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley.
Bests,
Barb :-)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Harry Dean - 25-03-2010
Dixie Dea Wrote:Hi Harry....Hi, Dixie
So Marg. was on the Joe Pyne Show in 1965. I could never recall what year it was. During that time, we were living in Pasadena, CA and use to watch Joe Pyne almost every night. Quite a character, with a lot of wackos on there too. But I do recall seeing Marg. on there that night. I don't recall you also being on there though....sorry! However, I can still recall how surprised I was at what all she had to say about her son, which she called Lee Harvey Oswald. I had tried to read all I could find (even then) about JFK conspracy theory...but what all she had to say was new to me. At the time, I was thinking....that poor woman, she just can't accept what her son has done!
At that time, although I did believe there was a conspiracy, I believed that LHO was one of the shooters. Later on, as I studied more, I was able to change my mind.
Dixie
Do you remember "The Box" that is the way I appeared in speaking with Mrs.
Oswald as arranged. Soon after, Joe invited me to be on his radio show which I did also. Joe Pyne was a no-nonsense nice guy, and we had great conversations, about piloting aircraft, the Cuba adventure and et al. It is true
he intentionally riled up guests even using insults, but he treated Mrs. Oswald with kindness as the audience was so nasty to her. They were nasty
shouting and offending her. He was most compassionate with her, and controlled the audience.
For me the pre-arrangement was successful!
Harry
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 25-03-2010
Jack,
Just to adopt the weakest shadow of the attitude you have displayed toward Judyth, why should anyone take for granted that these photographs "prove" anything like you describe? Judyth has shown that the same woman during her life span can display very different physical appearances. Their quality is so very different as when you offer photos of the "two Oswalds". And you know what can happen when the same photograph is scanned over and over again. You make the impeccable point that, if there were TWO at the SAME TIME who were using the same name MARGUERITE and raising sons named OSWALD who were living PARALLEL LIVES, then you would have proven your case. But surely you can't expect that producing a photograph like this is sufficient to convince anyone of the (on its face) implausible theory you and John have advanced. You may be right--and I know you are convinced that you ARE right--but I and no doubt others remain to be convinced. Just for openers--and Judyth will have questions and comments of her own--how do we know the origin of these photographs at all? I know you are going to tell me to READ THE BOOK. I just want you to know that sorting all this out may take some time. Just as you are demanding about Judyth, I shall be demanding of you.
Jim
Jack White Wrote:For those who have not read Armstrong and who do not believe that there were two Marguerites:
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Linda Minor - 25-03-2010
Jack White Wrote:For those who have not read Armstrong and who do not believe that there were two Marguerites:
Jack, I see as much similarity between the two Marguerites as I do between the two Jack Whites when I compare the photo of you on this forum with that on the other one.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15559&st=615&p=187742&#entry187742
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 25-03-2010
Jim...it is apparent that THERE IS A SIX-INCH DIFFERENCE
IN HEIGHT IN THE TWO WOMEN.
I am NOT going to tell you to read the book. Just look at the
two photos, which are scaled the same. The Marguerite I knew
was about 5 feet tall. The Marguerite in the group photo is about
5 foot 7 inches. It is a very simple concept to comprehend@
Jack
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Jack,
Just to adopt the weakest shadow of the attitude you have displayed toward Judyth, why should anyone take for granted that these photographs "prove" anything like you describe? Judyth has shown that the same woman during her life span can display very different physical appearances. Their quality is so very different as when you offer photos of the "two Oswalds". And you know what can happen when the same photograph is scanned over and over again. You make the impeccable point that, if there were TWO at the SAME TIME who were using the same name MARGUERITE and raising sons named OSWALD who were living PARALLEL LIVES, then you would have proven your case. But surely you can't expect that producing a photograph like this is sufficient to convince anyone of the (on its face) implausible theory you and John have advanced. You may be right--and I know you are convinced that you ARE right--but I and no doubt others remain to be convinced. Just for openers--and Judyth will have questions and comments of her own--how do we know the origin of these photographs at all? I know you are going to tell me to READ THE BOOK. I just want you to know that sorting all this out may take some time. Just as you are demanding about Judyth, I shall be demanding of you.
Jim
Jack White Wrote:For those who have not read Armstrong and who do not believe that there were two Marguerites:
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 25-03-2010
Linda Minor Wrote:Jack White Wrote:For those who have not read Armstrong and who do not believe that there were two Marguerites:
Jack, I see as much similarity between the two Marguerites as I do between the two Jack Whites when I compare the photo of you on this forum with that on the other one.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15559&st=615&p=187742&#entry187742
But the two photos WERE TAKEN ABOUT FORTY YEARS APART!
Photos taken 40 years apart obviously will look different. The
photos of the two Marguerites were taken about 1957.
Can you not understand the difference?
Jack