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+--- Thread: FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK (/Thread-FBI-Evidence-Proves-Oswald-s-Ammunition-was-not-Capable-of-Sufficient-Accuracy-to-Kill-JFK)
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 31-03-2014
DiEugenio says the bullet in evidence is not the same one that Walker originally saw at the scene.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 31-03-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:DiEugenio says the bullet in evidence is not the same one that Walker originally saw at the scene.
General Walker made the exact same claim, often vehemently. No one listened to him, either.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!" -- Sir Walter Scott --
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - LR Trotter - 31-03-2014
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Albert Doyle Wrote:DiEugenio says the bullet in evidence is not the same one that Walker originally saw at the scene.
General Walker made the exact same claim, often vehemently. No one listened to him, either.
"Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive!" -- Sir Walter Scott --
Speaking of General Walker, I wonder, as I wander, if there is any current information regarding Marina Oswald Porter's thoughts about who did or did not do the shooting?
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FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Dawn Meredith - 31-03-2014
Lauren Johnson Wrote:If I recall- from the way back machine in my mind- I believe that Dep Sheriff Roger Craig was one of the cops who id'd the Mauser. I just know it was at least two cops so there WAS a Mauser. And of course it disappeared as it did not fit with the plan.Lauren Johnson Wrote:Bob, this is off-topic. Apologies. Maybe another thread.
How does the initial discovery of a Mauser play into this if at all?
I guess to answer my own question: Nothing. The Mauser disappeared.
Dawn
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Albert Doyle - 01-04-2014
Craig said he held the rifle inches from his face and clearly saw "Mauser" stamped on the barrel.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 01-04-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:Craig said he held the rifle inches from his face and clearly saw "Mauser" stamped on the barrel.
Unfortunately, if it was indeed a 7.65mm Argentine Mauser carbine, any physical evidence related to it has long been disappeared.
Did Roger Craig or anyone else ever say the Mauser was a carbine or long rifle? I've always assumed it was a carbine, as this would bear the closest resemblance to the M91/38, but the 7.65 was made in a long rifle, as well.
Like most of the ultra-long barreled infantry weapons of that age, the 7.65 was known to be quite an accurate weapon.
It still strikes me as odd that the conspirators would allow a 7.65 Mauser to be found, when the intended patsy weapon was to be the Carcano.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Mitchell Severson - 02-04-2014
Wouldn't you think that these more available WCC bullets also reduced the accuracy of the shots fired by the riflemen attempting to duplicate "Oswald's" feat? I guess that would make them feel a bit better for their misses, but doesn't do any favors for the Warren Commission. One of the things that made me doubtful of the official story and led to my own study was the accuracy of the two back shots - one looks dead center on the head and the other is an inch or two of JFK's center line. Now we are supposed to believe that was done with half-assed bullets, shot at a slowly moving man, sitting in a car moving at varying speed. (And, technically, by a guy who was, at least, not likely in position).
The reason I find Robert's information-heavy posts about the rifle and bullets so relevant is that the LN community seems to think that as long as they can stretch out the shooting window they have answered the ciritics only relevant argument against the feasibility of the LN scenario. These posts are ammunition against that mistaken belief.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 02-04-2014
Mitchell Severson Wrote:Wouldn't you think that these more available WCC bullets also reduced the accuracy of the shots fired by the riflemen attempting to duplicate "Oswald's" feat? I guess that would make them feel a bit better for their misses, but doesn't do any favors for the Warren Commission. One of the things that made me doubtful of the official story and led to my own study was the accuracy of the two back shots - one looks dead center on the head and the other is an inch or two of JFK's center line. Now we are supposed to believe that was done with half-assed bullets, shot at a slowly moving man, sitting in a car moving at varying speed. (And, technically, by a guy who was at least not likely in position).
The reason I find Robert's information-heavy posts about the rifle and bullets so relevant is that the LN community seems to think that as long as they can stretch out the shooting window they have answered the ciritics only relevant argument against the feasibility of the LN scenario. These posts are ammunition against that mistaken belief.
One thing we have to understand about television, where the results of the riflemen attempting to duplicate Oswald's shooting feat are displayed, is that we are only allowed to view the end product, and not what goes into making that product. We only see the magician's tricks, and are never shown him setting them up.
If I am indeed correct that the bullets loaded into the WCC 6.5mm cartridges were .264" in diameter, this would mean that, for over a century, the only bullets ever manufactured for a 6.5mm rifle that were .268" in diameter were those millions of cartridges made for the Italian military. The last Italian 6.5mm military ammo was made before 1945. The availability of .268" diameter bullets only changed in 2002, when Hornady realized the problems Carcano owners were having when they reloaded cartridges with .264" bullets (only thing available) and they brought out a bullet .268" in diameter.
There are still thousands of Italian military surplus 6.5mm cartridges on the market, all loaded with .268" bullets, despite the fact much of it is not safe to shoot. While many of those bullets are jacketed with a cupro-nickel compound that gives it a silvery appearance (remember the "steel jacketed" bullet found at the Walker residence?) there is a great deal of Italian milsurp ammo jacketed in gilder's metal. This is a brass compound, same as the WCC jacketing material, and is often mistakenly referred to as "copper" jacketed.
So, if I wanted to duplicate Oswald's feat with WCC 6.5mm ammo, would I use the cartridges right out of the box? Of course not. I might not be able to hit the target.
What I would do, and this is well within the capability of any handloading enthusiast using only hobby handloading tools, is pull the bullets from the WCC 6.5mm cartridges (or just shoot the cartridges in a rifle). Once the cartridge was empty, I would re-size the brass cartridge in a re-sizing die and press out the spent primer and install a new one, being careful to apply a little bit of red lacquer to seal the primer and make it look like the original. Then, using a digital scale, I would precisely weigh and match the fresh gunpowder charge for each cartridge, ten times more accurate than the way gunpowder is measured for mass produced "factory" cartridges. And, finally, for the coup de grace, I would extract "copper" jacketed 6.5mm bullets from Italian milsurp ammo, .268" in diameter, and seat these bullets into the WCC cartridges. Voila! You now have a cartridge that looks identical to a WCC 6.5mm cartridge, but will be far more accurate when shot from the same rifle. Even the expert riflemen doing your shooting in the tests could be fooled, if the cartridges were made carefully enough.
However, it must be remembered that the WCC 6.5mm ammo was made either in 1954, 1949 or in the early 1940's, depending on which particular story you subscribe to. Either way, any shooting tests done in the last twenty years would be done with minimum 50+ year old ammo. The expert riflemen, and anyone else with firearms knowledge, would know this, and should be highly suspect of the ability of ammo this old to be accurate.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Don Jeffries - 03-04-2014
As Mark Lane noted in his Warren Commission testimony, "Made Italy 6.5 cal" is clearly legible on the Mannlicher Carcano. It is impossible to accept that, not even including Roger Craig, both officers who found the weapon-Boone and Weitzman-made an identical mistake like this.
Bob, a belated thanks for a great thread. As noted by yourself and others in the past, the drama on forums always attracts more attention than evidence.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 04-04-2014
Don Jeffries Wrote:As Mark Lane noted in his Warren Commission testimony, "Made Italy 6.5 cal" is clearly legible on the Mannlicher Carcano. It is impossible to accept that, not even including Roger Craig, both officers who found the weapon-Boone and Weitzman-made an identical mistake like this.
Bob, a belated thanks for a great thread. As noted by yourself and others in the past, the drama on forums always attracts more attention than evidence.
You're quite correct about the "MADE ITALY" and "6.5 CAL" being quite clearly marked in white on the base of the barrel of C2766. And I, too, have trouble seeing how it could be missed. The first thing most gun types I know would do with a strange rifle is look for markings on the barrel or the side of the receiver to see what make, model and calibre it was. Sometimes, I don't know just what to think about the whole Mauser/Carcano issue.
Thanks for the compliment.