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Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Drew Phipps - 09-02-2015
The correct answer to when the SBT came into being was April 1964. (Epstein "Inquest", Weisenberg "Whitewash") Rankin proposed it when it became apparent that the Z film showed too short of a time period between JFK reacting and JBC reacting to be 2 shots from a single shooter with a MC 91/38.
BTW Connally testified in April 1964 and thought the SBT was "inconceiveable".
In July 1964, Tom Dillard's photo was forwarded to the WC. (He had turned it in to the FBI in February) This caused a minor flurry of investigation and witness interviews. In August 1964 the FBI lab confirmed that the curb mark was a bullet. "However, the chapter on the basic facts of the investigation had already been written, and at this late date there was no interest in reopening the investigation." "Inquest" p.97 (quoting Liebeler)
Also there is a great difference between the basic question of whether the throat wound was some sort of exit wound (an anatomical issue) and whether that bullet could have then gone on to strike Connnally (a ballistics issue). Admittedly, the SBT depends on the anatomical finding as a pre-requisite, but it is not necessarily the case that the JFK autopsy doctors needed to be briefed on where the back/throat bullet went afterwards (they only needed to be briefed on where the shooter was located).
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - David Josephs - 09-02-2015
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Drew Phipps - 09-02-2015
Tracy's nice color picture reminds me that the chase cars were not modeled on the street in their correct position after "shot 1" (I am not trying to start a discussion on whether this was shot 1). I cannot guess at what distance the chase car was from the limo at the time of the headshot. If we are going to get an answer to the original question we need to have some ballpark estimate of the separation between limo and chase car at the time of the headshot.
I previously said before that 23 feet of separation would be sufficient to make the shot at the angle ascribed to z313 without hitting the higher SS guy in the chase car. Based on the model there (at position 1), the chase car was quite close indeed, less than a car length. IF the chase car maintained that close of a distance, there might be an issue. However, the closer the chase car is, the less elevation change there would be between cars, making the slope of the road less important. The further away the chase car, the more need to account for the slope of the road, but that means there is also more room for the shot to clear above the SS guy.
Maybe the reason the guys that built the model didn't include the chase cars in position at "shot 2" and "shot 3" was because the string got uncomfortably close. It's also a bit odd that, while the string is attached to the model of the limo in roughly the correct position at shot 1, the string is attached to the wrong side of the limo model for the subsequent string lines.
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Tracy Riddle - 09-02-2015
David Josephs Wrote:Tracy - if the SBT is not created until the Summer of 64, how does it get into the Autopsy ? How does Specter ask the Drs about it in March?
David, I didn't say it was created in the Summer. I said it was developed in the Spring.
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13233-Deep-Politics-Timeline/page6#.VNkXz-bF9Cg
- 3/1964 Researcher Thomas Buchanan interviewed Nicholas Katzenbach 3/1964, who stood by the description of JFK's wounds at that time (that the back wound was a separate shot and the throat wound was related to the head shot): "he said that it was based on an exhaustive study of the President's autopsy, and that there could be no doubt about it...He felt certain any person who had studied this autopsy would have reached the same conclusions. I asked him if I could see a copy of it, but he said that he could not release it...when the President's Commission issued its report, the explanation of the wounds had changed completely..." (Who Killed Kennedy p91-92)
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Bob Prudhomme - 10-02-2015
Hi David
My head is reeling from all of the numbers, and the obvious contradictions in a lot of the data. Chris Davidson is helping me design a model over at the Ed Forum, and supplying me with most of the numbers.
So far, this is what I have for a head shot at z313.
Trajectory, from the WCR - 265 feet at a downward angle of 18°
Vertical height from street to rifle on 6th floor - 61.2 feet
Drop from TSBD to z313 (3.13° downhill slope) - 11.76 feet
I created a right angle triangle with a hypotenuse of 265 feet and a vertical rise of 61.2 + 11.76 = 72.96 feet and, using C² - A² = B², found the base of the triangle to be 255 feet. The only mistake I may have made is not adding the height of the curb, in 1963, to the vertical side of the triangle. I think Chris mentioned something about this, and I am awaiting a reply from him.
Do all of the numbers above seem okay to you? I am trying to lay out a triangle based model that will have an additional line running uphill the the vertical side of the triangle at 3.13° that will represent Elm St. By placing the limo and follow up car on this line, it should be possible to determine, at various separating distances, if a six foot man riding a foot above the asphalt on the running board of a '56 Cadillac will block the view of JFK or not.
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Chris Davidson - 10-02-2015
Robert,
Robert,
The 215.3ft would be the physical location on Elm St. to Z313, not from the base of the TSBD which forms the right triangle.
I wanted you to become familiar with the straight line street distance and vert/horiz ratio first.
The 52.78 inches "JFK head above ground" = 4.39ft.
Previously, I posted testimony from Robert Frasier I believe, who said they used an approx 2ft rise above the window sill as the rifle end height.
The equation is going to look something like this:
60.7ft sill + .5ft curb + 11.76ft ElmSt slope = 72.96ft
72.96ft - 4.39ft = 68.57ft
68.57ft + 2 ft = 70.57ft
The actual Z313 survey has this side at 70.25ft
A difference of 3.84 inches.
265.3ft hypotenuse, 70.57ft side and 255.74ft side = right triangle.
265.26ft """"""" 70.25ft """" and 255.8ft """ = Z313 survey = right triangle
chris
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Chris Davidson - 10-02-2015
Mr. EISENBERG - Could you show the lead in that diagram, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER - In Commission Exhibit 556, it shows a triangular diagram with the vertical line on the left-hand side illustrating the height of the building. The figures of a 60-foot building height plus--
Mr. EISENBERG - That is height of the muzzle above the ground?
Mr. FRAZIER - No--window sill--60-foot window sill height above the ground, with an assumed 2- foot height in addition to accommodate the height of the rifle above the possible. the possible height of the rifle above the window sill.
The horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a 5-foot slope from the 175-foot point to the 265-foot point.
chris
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Bob Prudhomme - 10-02-2015
Hi Chris
Okay, I just figured out where I mistakenly got the angle of 18° for the shot at z313 from. I'm trying to do too many things at once, and I confused data from the FBI's WCD 298 with the official data in the WCR.
As you said, the WC stated the angle of the third and fatal shot at z313 to be 15.3° (trajectory from window - 265 feet), while the FBI claimed a second shot hitting Connally only three feet closer to the TSBD, with a trajectory of 262 feet. With only three feet difference, the FBI claimed the angle of their 262 foot shot to be 18°, and so my mistake began.
I'm not sure I really trust any of the FBI evidence. Either they deliberately fed false data to the WC, or their agents had a phenomenal level of incompetence.
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - Drew Phipps - 10-02-2015
I got some bad news for the "shot blocking" theory. Based on my pixel counting software, the published specs for the Caddy sedan that was the chase car, Altgens 6, and the shot of the chase car where the ride along SS guy is waved off JFK's limo, SS Agent Ready is not a tall man. You can pretty clearly see that in Altgens 6, where Clint Hill is visibly taller than Ready, and also in the "wave-off" photo, where the SS Agent Don Lawton (?) is almost the same height as Ready, even though Ready is riding the running board (6 inches high at least) and Lawton is standing on the ground.
My pixel counting software gives me a height of 5'7" for Agent Ready. Even standing on the running board his height is no more than 6'2".
I got the math equations on this worked out on paper, but let me plug in the numbers given previously for JFK's height when seated, and I'll get back to you by the end of the day.
Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313? - David Josephs - 10-02-2015
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Hi David
My head is reeling from all of the numbers, and the obvious contradictions in a lot of the data. Chris Davidson is helping me design a model over at the Ed Forum, and supplying me with most of the numbers.
So far, this is what I have for a head shot at z313.
Trajectory, from the WCR - 265 feet at a downward angle of 18°
Vertical height from street to rifle on 6th floor - 61.2 feet
Drop from TSBD to z313 (3.13° downhill slope) - 11.76 feet
I created a right angle triangle with a hypotenuse of 265 feet and a vertical rise of 61.2 + 11.76 = 72.96 feet and, using C² - A² = B², found the base of the triangle to be 255 feet. The only mistake I may have made is not adding the height of the curb, in 1963, to the vertical side of the triangle. I think Chris mentioned something about this, and I am awaiting a reply from him.
Do all of the numbers above seem okay to you? I am trying to lay out a triangle based model that will have an additional line running uphill the the vertical side of the triangle at 3.13° that will represent Elm St. By placing the limo and follow up car on this line, it should be possible to determine, at various separating distances, if a six foot man riding a foot above the asphalt on the running board of a '56 Cadillac will block the view of JFK or not.
And here are the two shots location per the SS...
4 feet from 5+00 is either 5+04 or 4+96...
WCD298 tells us that Z313 was 262' versus the last shot at 307'. 307-262=45 feet
The legend and the SS statement creates a 39 foot base (5+04 minus 4+65) or a 31 foot base.
From JFK to the front of the limo was about 15 feet
With the adjustment BACK at the top of Elm and forward at the bottom, we have our 30+ feet of difference related to the location of the final shot... (I think that's right, Chris?)