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+--- Thread: Michael Collins Piper (/thread-14001.html)
Michael Collins Piper - Jim DiEugenio - 23-09-2015
TR: Most people work backward on this case, picking their favorite suspect first (usually based on their political biases) and then looking for the evidence to support that scenario.
This might be the case with many people today-Nelson and McClellan-- but it was not the case with me at all.
It took me a very long tome to figure out what I thought actually happened. Like over ten years.
Michael Collins Piper - R.K. Locke - 23-09-2015
I got to grips with the case within a couple of years, thanks in large part to discovering this site. I give a great deal of credit to Charles Drago in that respect. He helped me to see that you can't understand the assassination without the application of logical rigour and a reliable analytical framework.
Michael Collins Piper - Tracy Riddle - 23-09-2015
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:TR: Most people work backward on this case, picking their favorite suspect first (usually based on their political biases) and then looking for the evidence to support that scenario.
This might be the case with many people today-Nelson and McClellan-- but it was not the case with me at all.
It took me a very long tome to figure out what I thought actually happened. Like over ten years.
Same here; my suspect list was all over the place for many years until I finally settled on the scenario I currently favor. That's not to say I couldn't change my mind again.
Michael Collins Piper - O. Austrud - 23-09-2015
Have any of you read "False Flags", by Collins Piper, published in about 2013. Here he compares the similarities between JFK murder, Oklahoma City Bombing, 9-11 and also talks about Boston.. I'm not saying Piper Collins is right, I have always been pretty objective myself through the years, and open to new ideas (I like to think that myself, at least
) But what I don't get is people rejecting his theories right away, without even reading him. That's unfair, and shows bias. (Or it shows fear of even mentioning Mossad as a part of this)
Michael Collins Piper - Albert Doyle - 23-09-2015
The way I look at it is, in his zeal to pin it on the zionists (Let's face it Piper was an ardent anti-zionist through Carto) Piper did the best fleshing-out of the same mafia/CIA/Mediterranean French Connection underground that was connected to the killers of Kennedy than anybody else. Where Piper makes a mistake is trying to say JFK's assassination was instigated, initiated, planned, and sponsored by Israel. I don't think that's true. I think it was the Eastern Establishment/CIA cabal that orchestrated the assassination. But I think they saw Kennedy's problems with Israel and exploited it. Angleton as CIA liaison to Israel can't be ignored.
I would say let's hypothetically say Piper is dead wrong. I would implore assassination researchers to read Final Judgment with the understanding his attempted thesis is wrong while paying close attention to his fleshing-out of the Mafia-CIA-Mediterranean underground and how it was involved in JFK's assassination. It has direct associations to Permindex, Gladio, and most likely even the drug smugglers Rose Cheramie exposed - just to show how close it actually was to the bare bones of the assassination.
Michael Collins Piper - Dawn Meredith - 23-09-2015
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:TR: Most people work backward on this case, picking their favorite suspect first (usually based on their political biases) and then looking for the evidence to support that scenario.
This might be the case with many people today-Nelson and McClellan-- but it was not the case with me at all.
It took me a very long tome to figure out what I thought actually happened. Like over ten years.
Same here; my suspect list was all over the place for many years until I finally settled on the scenario I currently favor. That's not to say I couldn't change my mind again.
The only time I "fingered" a suspect was that day: LBJ. At 14 I did not know about the CIA and secret societies and hidden "invisible" governments. When I began to study this case in depth in the early 70's I realized that we can never know the "Who", and that it was really all about the "why". That was answered for me, first by Garrison, then really fleshed out by Douglass. With many others in between those two giants. Since CD was brought up I agree with some advice from him: one good place to look is Donald Gibson. A. Sutton sets out the entire BIG picture, predating the assassination.
So to me it's a waste of time to try to say "who did it". Just as seeing Badge man or prayer man or anyone in the terribly blurry photos is merely speculation.
What I want to know is where do we go from here? (I am working with a group who have some ideas but I don't hold out much hope, and at this point it's merely in the "let's try this" category. ).
Dawn
ps. I did get another lawyer to order JFKU the other day. Very rare achievement.
Michael Collins Piper - Dawn Meredith - 23-09-2015
O. Austrud Wrote:Have any of you read "False Flags", by Collins Piper, published in about 2013. Here he compares the similarities between JFK murder, Oklahoma City Bombing, 9-11 and also talks about Boston.. I'm not saying Piper Collins is right, I have always been pretty objective myself through the years, and open to new ideas (I like to think that myself, at least
Now THAT sounds like a very interesting read. Thanks.
Dawn
Michael Collins Piper - Albert Doyle - 23-09-2015
It's by the same author who wrote Final Judgment.
Michael Collins Piper - Tracy Riddle - 23-09-2015
Albert Doyle Wrote:It's by the same author who wrote Final Judgment.
Free PDF here:
https://archive.org/download/PiperMichaelCollinsFalseFlags/Piper%20Michael%20Collins%20-%20False%20flags.pdf
Michael Collins Piper - David Josephs - 23-09-2015
Albert Doyle Wrote:Peter, that's not at all true. If you bothered to read Piper instead of rejecting him offhand you would see that although he may have made an incorrect 'mastermind' accusation about Israel's sponsorship he proved beyond a doubt that Israel had serious connections through CIA liaison to Israel James Jesus Angleton, Meyer Lansky, Tibor Rosenbaum, and the Mediterranean underground network.
Peter, have you even read 'Final Judgment'? It's absolutely false to say there is not one scintilla of evidence. Piper provided 500 pages of DiEugenio-quality reference and evidence. When I asked Jim about it he said the book stank and he threw it in the trash. That's not a very intellectually honest answer seeing how, if you read Piper's deftly researched case, he provides a dense body of fully referenced credible evidence.
The problem is Israel is guarded by a strictly protected bias where anyone who criticizes it is successfully labeled as a Nazi-like crude anti-semite. Piper may have had a bug up his rear for Israel and harbored some anti-Israel biases, but I have never seen anyone ever debunk his actual research.
If you ignore the showdown JFK had with Ben Gurion over nukes and how it led to Ben Gurion's nervous breakdown and subsequent departure from office you are just ignoring plain history. Kennedy's letters to Ben Gurion over the issue are still classified over 50 years later.
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Albert and O. Austrud... rather than take Piper's word for what went on you may be better served by going and reading the docuemtns yourself and coming to your own conclusions.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jfktoc.html
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/israel/documents/first/index.html
Are links to the communications between the players themselves... I've looked thru and re read that book trying to find the evidence Piper uses to come to his conclusions....
From Piper's terrible book:
Why did it take more than three years for the American intelligence establishment to reach the conclusion that Israel was planning to build nuclear weapons at the "peaceful" nuclear research station at Dimona? According to Avner Cohen's account in Israel and the Bomb, "Information about Israel was jealously held within the CIA, where James Jesus Angelton was in charge of the Israeli desk. Angleton did not share sensitive information with other agencies, and also withheld much of it from other CIA sections".
Below is the report on Israel's Nuclear Activity on JANUARY 30, 1961
And we obviously KNEW something was up REGARDLESS of what JJA was doing.
AGAIN is this in any way indicative of Israeli involvement in the assassination? Or simply guilt by association take to the extreme to support a pre-conceived conclusion?
Israel's Nuclear Activities
(January 30, 1961)
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This memorandum notes Israel's claim to not be seeking nuclear capability and the U.S.'s position on Israel's research. IOW they are lying to the US.
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SUBJECT
Israel's Atomic Energy Activities
In 1955 under the "Atoms-for-Peace" program the United States undertook to assist Israel with its atomic energy development program. Subsequently a one megawatt research reactor was built with our aid at Nahal Rubin, near Tel Aviv.
In the summer and early fall of 1960 rumors reached our Embassy at Tel Aviv that the French were collaborating with the Israelis in the construction of a large reactor at Dimona, near Beersheba, in the northern part of the Negev desert. After our intelligence agencies had established on December 2 that a significant atomic installation was in fact being built near Beersheba, Secretary Herter on December 9 called in Israeli Ambassador Harman who undertook to obtain full information from his government. After a number of exchanges, Prime Minister Ben-Gurion gave us categoric (sic) assurances supported by appropriate public statements to the effect that Israel does not have plans for developing nuclear weaponry. The French have also assured us that their assistance is premised on Israel's atomic energy program being solely for peaceful purposes. Ben-Gurion had indicated that aside from normal military precautions the reason for Israel's extreme secrecy with respect to the Dimona project was his fear and that of the foreign firms assisting the project that the Arab states would boycott or take other retaliatory measures against any firm or even country assisting the project. There is considerable justification for this Israeli reasoning.
Our government's concern was two-fold: a) pursuant to Congressional legislation and firm executive branch policy the United States is opposed to the proliferation of nuclear weapons capabilities; and b) Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons would have grave repercussions in the Middle East, not the least of which might be the probable stationing of Soviet nuclear weapons on the soil of Israel's embittered Arab neighbors.
The Israeli and French assurances which we have received appear to be satisfactory, although several minor questions still require clarification. In any case, the Department considers this not a single episode but a continuing subject and it is the intention of our intelligence agencies to maintain a continuing watch on Israel as on other countries to assure that nuclear weapons capabilities are not being proliferated. At the moment, we are encouraging the Israelis to permit a qualified scientist from the United States or other friendly power to visit the Dimona installation. Prime Minister Ben-Gurion has indicated that this may be possible at an early date.
A full chronology of our interest in Israel's atomic energy activities is attached in the event that it may be of interest to you./2/
Dean Rusk/3/
/1/Source: Department of State, Central Files, 884A.1901/1-3061. Secret. Drafted by Meyer (NEA/NE).
/2/Attached but not printed.
/3/Printed from a copy that indicates Rusk signed the original.
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Source: Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961-1963: Near East, 1962-1963, V. XVIII.
AND
This is a paper dated THE NEXT DAY - 31 Jan 1961 entitled
"Implications of the acquisition by Israel of a Nuclear WEAPONS Capability"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/CIA/cianuke013161.pdf
The Front Page states that we find out between Aug and Nov 1960 (prior to the election) that Israel started on a reactor in 1958-59 and possibly as early as 1956 with French help.
Bottom line? Read the original docs... not a para-phrasing by an anti-semite with a purpose.