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+--- Thread: Saint Fletcher the Obscure (/thread-5561.html)
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Peter Lemkin - 28-01-2011
I contacted, exchanged letters with, and then met with Prouty several times. He was a very nice, kind, generous and intelligent man. He was very interested in some aspects of my research on JFK and would encourage me to pursue those lines - saying "Now, that is an area I would strongly suggest you pursue further!" He would simply remain silent on those he felt would lead nowhere. He had this strange way of answering questions. You could ask point blank and unless he had discussed it in some article before he'd not answer directly, but ask me back what I thought and then 'steer' me - encouraging me if he felt I was 'getting warm' and discouraging me if he felt I was 'getting cold'. A few things, however, he did bring up out of the 'blue' in response to some of my questions and comments. One I'll never forget is that he said 'if I were a researcher, the first thing I'd do is look up who in the world was Dorothy Matlack and who she worked for and what she did! That will go a long way to understanding who was behind the inner workings of the Assassination. It was only much later I did, as info on Matlack is hard to find! She worked under Landsdale and was very senior - surprisingly so for the time, being a woman. She was the person who met DeM when he came to D.C., apparently to debrief him or prep him for any possible hearings on what he know vis-a-vis Oswald and their mutual friends. Prouty helped me on many aspects of my research and did not claim to know everything and everyone that happened or was involved in the Assassination. He explained in detail how compartmentality worked and said it worked even at the highest levels - even between two persons working on the same project in the same department or even office. I always felt, however, there were a few names and a few details about the Assassination he chose, for whatever reasons, to keep to himself and to not divulge. One did get the feeling, thought, that he would have been delighted if someone else came up with this information - only he was not going to divulge it - if for not to violate secrecy agreements or some other reasons. I specifically asked him about flights in and out of Dallas before / after the hit. He didn't seem to know of any details, but said it was logical that planes would have been the transport method of choice, and told me of some other infiltration/exfiltration episodes of which he knew the details about. I have the feeling if he 'lied' he did so only by omission....i.e. withholding a few names and details of friends and colleagues. However, he gave us so very much. I hold nothing against him and honor him greatly for what he did give us.
He seemed to know quite exactly who the shooters were and where they were brought from and returned to...but wouldn't name them. He also seemed sure who some of the commanders of the mechanics and magicians were, but again, other than a few that are public domain, did not name others. A few names of people I was pursuing as involved in this regard I ran past him. He would show with a facial expression or his statement of "Now, that is an area I would strongly suggest you pursue further!" whether he was giving a thumbs up or down on that name.
A few names he seemed to avoid discussing - or would state that it was tradecraft to have several persons using the same name [i.e. Bishop] and that he couldn't be sure which one I meant...even though I had other ways to identify exactly which 'Bishop' I was talking about. He seemed to know just about everyone we've ever looked into at the mid and upper levels and a few at the lower mechanic level he'd met, as well.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Bernice Moore - 28-01-2011
Thank you Peter for your input and recall, yes he gave us so much as you state, that does and has been checked out, without thought of the consequences, though they must have crossed his mind..
Greg did he ever talk with you about such dangers.?...thanks fellas, best take care b
''The Sabotaging Of The American President ''http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/SAP.html
when this article was posted Jim Root at the EF added the following information,many thanks...
additional information by jim root..
_______
At the foot of the northern slopes of Mt Fujiyama, near Tokyo, there is an airfield called Atsugi. During the fire-bomb and A-bomb days of World War II's finale over Japan, American bombers were ordered to stay away from Atsugi. When the war ended, Atsugi was the sole landing ground available for the transport planes that carried occupation forces into and American POW's out of Japan. On the first day of occupation, American pilots discovered that Atsugi was actually a vast underground headquarters. A few years later during the MacArthur dynasty, Atsugi became United States CIA headquarters in the Far East.
This camera was developed by a group working under Arthur Lundahl, consisting of geniuses from American industry. Cline went on to say, these miracles "were made possible by parallel development of camera, lenses, and special films for high-altitude photography." The Lundahl system employed eight reflectors and exposed eight films through a single lens at the same time.
A Fragile Detent ;;http://www.jstor.org/pss/1986900
b
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Bernice Moore - 28-01-2011
Peter Presland Wrote:Bernice Moore Wrote:Download The Secret Team
http://www.scribd.com/doc/3329881/Co...cret-Team-1973
Sorry the secret team has been deleted, perhaps it may be elsewhere on the web...?b
there is one here free download but i do not know anything about the site...b...
http://fliiby.com/file/519943/b42wdpwkak.html
Also available as a single pdf here
thank you Peter, Appreciated...best b
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Greg Burnham - 28-01-2011
Bernice Moore Wrote:Thank you Peter for your input and recall, yes he gave us so much as you state, that does and has been checked out, without thought of the consequences, though they must have crossed his mind..
Greg did he ever talk with you about such dangers.?...thanks fellas, best take care b
Hi Bernice--yes he did, but extremely non-chalantly. He didn't appear concerned in the least. I believe that is because a) he knew how far he could go without crossing the line; b) he had "insurance" in places that "they" wouldn't want scrutinized; c) he was well respected
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Seamus Coogan - 28-01-2011
Malcolm Pryce Wrote:One of the most memorable scenes in Oliver Stone's JFK movie features the Fletcher Prouty character (as mysterious Mr X) describing how he was in New Zealand at the time of the assassination and read a report of it in the Christchurch Star. He claims the news report appeared before Oswald had even been charged with the President's murder.
Is there a consensus among the JFK research community about this claim? Does it stand up to scrutiny? in view of the clear evidence of media scripting during 9/11 it would be interesting to know.
This is a rough transcript of the relevant section:
Mister X : Oswald was charged 7pm Dallas time with Tippit's murder. That's 2 o'clock in the afternoon of the next day, New Zealand time. But already their papers had the entire history of this 24 year old unknown man Oswald. Studio picture, detailed biographical data, Russian information and were pretty sure of the fact that he killed the President alone although it took them four more hours before they even charged him with that crime in Dallas. It felt to me as if…well like a cover story was being put out…
Thanks for the private e-mail and it's awesome to meet you.
Remember Prouty said 'felt'. He was never really totally sure there was a cover story. Nor that he could prove it. Sometime his opinion was definite that there was, some other times he was more coy. As it stands Prouty's notion of there being potential for a cover story.....well (phew) after going on six years of research in the topic now (or is it seven?) is in my opinion very potential .
Remember people that Prouty never, ever said NZ got news ahead of the rest of the world. His interviews were often been spliced and his words minced by both pro conspiracy and anti the idea that he believed the Chch Star was an oracle of evil intent. Prouty believed a cover story could have been enacted world wide. NZ just happened to be where he was when picked up the paper. He could have been in the Congo.
Where Prouty scores marks is that Oswald was well known to US intelligence before the assassination. Combine this Operation Mockingbird and bingo. Prouty may have been of with the photo of Oswald. But the issue is 'who the hell took it! And where for what purpose? Its a total rabbit hole.
I hope this was in someway useful Malcom and others.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - David Guyatt - 28-01-2011
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:David Guyatt Wrote:I wonder about the veracity of that letter. I really do. Were I to have the time I think I might fact check every single item that can be fact checked. And I would undertake a study of its composition, syntax and general style comparing it to the books he wrote.
Because my opinion of L Ron Hubbard doesn't run at all high. Not in the slightest.
And I would also be alarmed if Prouty was, as it seems he is doing, implicitly supporting MKULTRA operations. My gut feeling is that he would shy far away from that activity; that it would be anathema to him. Particularly so in his later years after he had stood up to be counted on so many other important subjects. It simply doesn't jibe, imo.
So, in conclusion, I would need stringent proof that the letter was true.
And if proved so I would need a hefty drink to calm my nerves and comfort my shame at having allowed myself to have been conned.
David - I share your reservations, and reiterate that the authenticity of the letter is not proven.
I will add some further context from the site at which I found it, the url of which I included in post #2:
http://web.ncf.ca/cj871/prouty.html
Quote:L. Fletcher Prouty's Letter to Miller's Publisher
The following was posted to alt.religion.scientology by Scientology spokesman Andrew Milne in early 1996, in response to a review of Bare-faced Messiah posted by Martin Poulter. I have added HTML tags as I saw fit; however, I have made no content changes. Any spelling, typographical or stylistic errors are Milne's or Prouty's, as the case may be.
Disclaimer: The views of Milne and Prouty do not reflect my own. Andrew Milne proved himself on countless occasions to be a consummate liar, easily refuted, until he ducked out of a.r.s. Having read one of Prouty's books on JFK, I find him unscholarly and inaccurate, to say the least. Let the reader beware.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: UK MEDIA 1987: Review of Bare Faced Messiah
From: milne@crl.com (Andrew Milne)
Date: 1996/03/19
Message-Id: <4in7j5$kb6@crl2.crl.com>
References: <DoIsD0.Eo2@uns.bris.ac.uk>
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest]
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Martin Poulter (plmlp@mail.bris.ac.uk) wrote:
: Sunday Times
: 15 Nov 87
: Books: Face to face with fanaticism /
: Review of 'Bare-Faced Messiah' by Russell Miller
: By BEN HOOBERMAN
: BARE-FACED MESSIAH by Russell Miller/Michael Joseph Pounds 12.95 pp390
The following is a letter written to Miller's publishers in 1987, showing the venality and falsity of Miller's book.
So, the letter was provided by a "Scientology spokesman".
However, the Church of Scientology is adamant that both Jim Garrison and Fletcher Prouty did have dealings with them.
This is from their "Freedom" magazine website:
Quote: Means of Speaking Out
The late Judge Jim Garrison, a central figure in the movie "JFK", chose Freedom in 1986 as his forum to end years of media silence. As New Orleans district attorney from 1962 to 1974, Garrison conducted an extensive investigation in the late 1960s of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Freedom published articles by Judge Garrison conveying his views and evidence of events and circumstances surrounding JFK's assassination and of the part the killing played in a transformation of America's government and future.
Between 1985 and 1987, Freedom also published a 19-part series by Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, whose 30 years of close work with U.S. intelligence services included an eight-year tenure as chief of special operations for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and a similar capacity with the Office of Special Operations of the Office of the Secretary of Defense. The series provided a unique and highly informative view of the events which led up to the Vietnam War. The articles also provided seminal material for the movie "JFK," for which Colonel Prouty also served as consultant.
http://30th.freedommag.org/page29.htm
I have not seen any copies of Prouty's "19-part series" allegedly published between 1985-87 in "Freedom". However, back issues must exist somewhere.
And here are the comments allegedly given by Prouty to "Freedom" on Jonestown:
Quote:Mass Murder
Although many others lost their lives on November 18, 1978, according to Dr. C. Leslie Mootoo, then chief medical examiner of Guyana, the overwhelming majority of the deaths at Jonestown were murders, not suicides.
Dr. Mootoo, the government's top pathologist and the first physician on the scene, told Freedom that many had died from injections of cyanide. After 32 hours of nonstop work in stifling heat, amid decaying flesh, in Mootoo's words, "We gave up." By that time, 187 bodies killed by injections had been examined by Mootoo and his team. Victims had been injected in portions of their bodies they could not have reached themselves, such as between the shoulder blades or in the back of an upper arm. "Those who were injecting them knew what they were doing," Mootoo said.
Many others had been shot. Charles Huff, a former member of the U.S. Army Special Forces in Panama, was one of the seven Green Berets who were the first American troops on the scene following the massacre. He told Freedom, "We saw many bullet wounds as well as wounds from crossbow bolts."
Huff noted that those with fatal bullet or bolt wounds appeared to have been running toward the jungle that surrounded Jonestown. Corroborating the information from Dr. Mootoo, Huff said that the adults who had not been shot had been killed by injections between the shoulder blades. The killers escaped before the arrival of Huff and his team.
U.S. Air Force Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, who worked closely in key positions with the CIA and the Joint Chiefs of Staff for many years, told Freedom that Leo Ryan had moved in too close to certain skeletons that could never be safely disturbed. A relentless and uncompromising investigator, nothing could stop Ryanshort of violence. But how could such a high-profile personality be eliminated without bringing down upon the perpetrators an investigation to end all investigations?
A very real possibility is that by making the assassination part of an even larger catastrophe, the central drama itselfthat of a courageous individual blocked from probing reports of illegal, unconstitutional, government-sponsored psychiatric "mind-control" activitieswas obscured.
Colonel Prouty noted evidence of the involvement of a larger force in the operation: "The Joint Chiefs of Staff had prepared air shipments of hundreds of body bags. They didn't normally keep that many in any one place. Within hours, they began to shuttle them down to Georgetown, the main city. They couldn't possibly have done that without prior knowledge that it was going to happen. It shows that there was prior planning."
Prouty said, "We would provide the agency with the things they were requesting, without any questions. That's the way the business works."
At Jonestown, he said, the JCS provided the body bags, the airlift and all the rest on a timetable that shows advance knowledge. "The JCS wouldn't have moved at all on their own," he said. "They didn't give a damn about Jonestown." These and other unusual events, he noted, "are the kinds of earmarks that define the hand of American intelligence."
Nearly two decades after the death of Congressman Leo Ryan, America is still owed a definitive explanation for the many unresolved questions surrounding the tragedy. To begin, all documents and records from all relevant agencies should be released in full. Only then might the full truth be known.
Revisiting the Jonestown Tragedy - Freedom Magazine: The Voice of the Church of Scientology
http://investigations.freedommag.org/invest/usa/19940101.htm
There are several threads on Jonestown here at DPF, which include the research of John Judge and Jim Hougan. My judgement of the comments attributed to Prouty in the "Freedom" Jonestown article is that they are entirely consistent with the evidence and an objective interpretation of that evidence.
Jan, thanks for that. While nothing is absolute, the fact that the letter was "published" by an official of Saint Ron's "laboratory" tells me everything I need to know about credibility.
I don't suppose this thread is the appropriate place to discuss St. Ron's deep occult roots and connections to Magician, Aleister Crowley's "magical son", Jack Parsons and he and Ron's joint "Babylon Working" in the desert in 1946, to raise the biblical "Scarlet Woman" and where they participated in the homosexual "magical masturbation".
However, for those who have an interest in these connections the linked website is a resource definitely worth reviewing.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Peter Lemkin - 28-01-2011
Greg Burnham Wrote:Bernice Moore Wrote:Thank you Peter for your input and recall, yes he gave us so much as you state, that does and has been checked out, without thought of the consequences, though they must have crossed his mind..
Greg did he ever talk with you about such dangers.?...thanks fellas, best take care b
Hi Bernice--yes he did, but extremely non-chalantly. He didn't appear concerned in the least. I believe that is because a) he knew how far he could go without crossing the line; b) he had "insurance" in places that "they" wouldn't want scrutinized; c) he was well respected
I'd concur with what Greg has put above and only add that many of those you and I would imagine would or could be in a position to 'punish' him in any way he had worked for, or worked for their next in line and knew, often personally....that along with Greg's point a) kept Fletcher out of big trouble, IMO. But in talking to him, I remember asking him questions....direct and pointed questions to which he would only smile.....showing he knew the answer, but that I was not about to be told what it was......he knew his limits. That said, I think he was trying within those limits to enlighten us and to FREE us of a tyranny he felt had developed. He was very conservative in his political beliefs, but a true Patriot, IMO!
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Adrian Mack - 28-01-2011
Quote:While nothing is absolute, the fact that the letter was "published" by an official of Saint Ron's "laboratory" tells me everything I need to know about credibility.Even if the letter is a fake, what about the biography? Or Prouty's otherwise long and prolific relationship with the Church of Scientology?
Plus, Prouty wittingly deceives his readers when he presents Report from Iron Mountain as fact. No? How is any of this acceptable?
But, as I wrote before, I'm no expert on the guy -- if I'm wrong about Iron Mountain, somebody please put me right. This is all information I've encountered that has had the effect of putting me off of and therefore ignoring Prouty.
(Not to mention his politics, which were more than just "conservative"! Surely this is circumstantial to Charles Drago's question, "Was he on the side of the Angels?")
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Peter Lemkin - 28-01-2011
PFFFFHHHhhhhhhtt! My, oh my. Having met and interacted with Prouty, I can say that I [on the far-way-out-there-left] could find common human ground [both personally and in discussion of matters of substance] with Prouty [who I considered and consider still a person on the middle-far-right, politically]. Thus, I am not passing judgment on the last few posts, but can see how they can be reconciled with his statements on Dallas and 'other' things. Just keep it all in mind when interpreting his statements and writings. IMO.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Keith Millea - 28-01-2011
To tell the truth,I'm not even convinced that Biography is real.It looks like a phantom to me.I hope Greg Burnham or someone will chime in and tell us if they know anything about it.