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+--- Thread: John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee (/thread-11170.html)
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 11-12-2013
Hi Bruce...
I've been doing quite a lot of work with John these past months and maybe this will help:
Harvey on the left, LEE on the right....
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Quote: This yearbook photo covered the 1954-1955 school year and, as I recall, in my experience as both as teacher and a student, yearbook photos have always been taken in the fall of the traditional (September to May/June) school year, so this photo would have been taken at Beauregard in the fall of 1954 when "Harvey" was supposedly in Stripling Jr. High in Ft. Worth. Now how can "Harvey" be at both Beauregard AND Stripling in the fall of 1954?
<snip>
Moreover, what are WE to make of this 1955 yearbook photo? Is this a picture of "Harvey", "Lee", or somebody else? The 1954 "Harvey" in the photo montage above certainly seems quite strikingly similar to the older 1959 "Harvey" and significantly different from the 1952 "Lee". And how does one explain the 1954 "Lee" picture with its odd posture that does not really look like any of the other pictures but yet was supposedly taken in English 202 at Beauregard Junior High School in October 1954, around the same time the 1955 yearbook picture would have been taken?
The photo of OSWALD in the BJHS yearbook as being in 9th grade in 1954/55 might actually be LEE (in MY opinion)... HARVEY was not seen in or around BJHS after June 1954. Simply because the photo is placed in a collage and given a title does not mean it is set in stone.... It SHOULD be LEE for as you said, HARVEY was at Stripling for a short period according to both Robert Oswald and Kudlaty, living just across the street. He then just drops out of sight with indications he and MO go to San Diego where HARVEY is a messenger for ETI Realty.
The question one should ask is how does HOOVER know enough about STRIPLING in 1954 to send agents to Kudlaty the morning after the assassination when there are no records of LEE attending Stripling EVER, let alone in 1954? How does HOOVER know that the accused 1954 JHS records are necessary on 11/23?
The follow up is - according to the records OSWALD leaves Warren Easton from 9/8/55 to 10/10/55.... and never graduates from 10th grade...
On the same day as the Xfer of High SChool credits is dated, the same date is written on the WARREN EASTON record as having been sent to Arlington HS.
Any idea how a student who did not attend more than a couple weeks of 10th grade in NOLA can simply enter 11th grade in Ft Worth? It appears as if he goes to Arlington on the 5th of Sept 1956, the transcripts arrive a week or so later then he leaves and joins the Marines - AGAIN without having to have a permenant HIGH SCHOOL record... the last photo of OSWALD is the 54-55 photo we are discussing.
If the 1954 photos are indeed LEE and HARVEY, then when that photo is dated is very important. Myra's dates are a year earlier... and why you will see no FBI questions about the 53-54 year.
To me, they are close enough that they both could be LEE. Yet you bring up a very good point of conflicting info regarding WHO the 1954 photo of HARVEY must be...
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John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 11-12-2013
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=18558&page=8#entry259115
This is for you Bruce... Greg and I go at it with the evidence... I think you will find the pervasive FBI side-step is carried on by Greg as well....
The witnesses are only asked about 54-55, never the fall of 1953 when HARVEY was with Myra.
How exactly does one attacka theory about 1953 with questions and evidence about 1954?
DJ
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 11-12-2013
While there are very real differences in their size and facial features there is another, fairly easy way to tell...
HARVEY has squared off shoulders in most of the pictures... LEE has sloped shoulders
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John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - James Norwood - 11-12-2013
David Josephs:
You have posted some dazzling visual materials. But I hope we will not lose track of Bruce Baird's queries. Bruce has done some excellent research on the Poage site and has raised a legitimate question about the homeroom of instructor Myra DaRouse where "Harvey" Oswald was her student.
Myra claims that she started teaching at Beauregard in September, 1953 and that in "my second year, I was given a homeroom." When teachers talk about a "year," it typically means an academic year, not a calendar year. Therefore, she was assigned her homeroom in the basement in the academic year 1954-55. Thus, Harvey could not have been in Myra's homeroom until fall 1954--the precise time when the evidence points to him being at Stripling in Forth Worth.
Perhaps Myra was mistaken about Harvey's assignment to her as a homeroom student. She was teaching at Beauregard in spring 1954 without a designated homeroom. This was a phys ed teacher, who was presumably spending more time in the yard than in the classroom. If Harvey entered Beauregard in the spring of 1954, it is still plausible that she mentored him and came to his assistance when he was injured.
Have you been able to locate a copy of the Beauregard JHS yearbook for 1953-54? In Box 18 on the Poage Library site, I could only find the 1954-55 yearbook. It would really be interesting to peruse the 1953-54 yearbook and see if there are any photos of "Lee Oswald."
James
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Dawn Meredith - 11-12-2013
Hey Jim
I just realized last week you are the same one who does JA's site. Great work. Talked to John on Sunday and he gave DPF a big thumbs up.
He keeps adding more great stuff to the Tippip section then calling me to make sure I have read it. Yes. I think he has nailed this one. I love this site and have emailed it to others.
Just a quick hello as I rush out the door to court.
Cheers
Dawn
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 11-12-2013
That would be Jim Hargrove Dawn.
====
Jim N... thanks for your kind words
I see that now Jim, thanks. The book will have a few conflicts... this is one of them.
One of the most mysterious times in young OSWALD's lives is the summer and fall of 1953 (North Dakota, Bronx Zoo photo Louise Robertson the "maid", Jacobi Hosptial references 2 years before opening....). Myra does not see HARVEY until Spring semester 1953/4 school year - CE1384 has OSWALD in Sept 1953 as 5'4" 115lbs. This is the Bronx Zoo photo - I found these rails were standard height 36"... THIS BOY is not the same LEE attending ps44 in NYC and one of the tallest/biggest/leader kids in the class. the inset is his 6th grade picture... the Bronx zoo is at least 12 if not 18 months later...
These are not the same boys - as John Pic so clearly pointed out.
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Other than the line on the BJHS record these are the only two other people who support HARVEY being at BJHS in the SPRING 1954.
Myra and fellow teacher Dorothy Duvik followed Voebel into the basement
cafeteria and found Harvey on the floor with a small, upright piano, laying across his legs.
The two women, along with Voebel, pulled Harvey out from underneath the piano and
asked him what had happened.
My own analysis of that record (the BJHS record) is a bit different than John's at this point. From the grade cards for the two classes HARVEY took we see a complete set of TERM grades for SPRING 54 - the 2nd semester of 8th grade - while there is only 1 TERM GRADE for the FALL... the LAST one.
Which to me means that the student arrived late in the semester (as HARVEY usually did) and was only graded once suggesting HARVEY does not attend until about Nov 1953. If he was there earlier he would have more TERM GRADES in the fall than just the one... at least in my thinking.
NOTE: the 303 on the cards is LEE's homeroom # - on the third floor, which were only given to 9th graders. The thing to remember is that TWO RECORDS have been combined into ONE person... LEE, who started BJHS in JAN 1954. LEE was never the truant in NYC, did not go to YOUTH HOUSE and attended NYC school ps44 as expected... (yet the NYC school records are also "created" as the number of days it is said he attended school is simply wrong... the WCR tries to put 124 school days into the period from 3/23/53 thru 6/4/53... (I've posted these records side by side to show how they have been written, rewritten and changed...
I happen to believe that the 54-55 year is also a composite (see 2nd graphic) as the grade cards and cumulative records do not match... and there were more than 180 days in the SPRING semester... (180 was the minimum # of days in a school year... I think the BJHS record was manufactured after the fact by combining HARVEY and LEE's records. (Last school is listed as ps44: BYRON JHS - which did not exist and insured that BJHS would not get the records... ther are 3 ps44's in NY: Bronx, Queens and Manhattan - which one LEE attended is still not definite - it is possible H&L both attended a ps44 without being together)
From H&L p.87
"Room 303 is on the third floor of Beauregard Junior High School, while Myra's homeroom was in the basement cafeteria"
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John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - James Norwood - 11-12-2013
David,
You have done some splendid work in your careful study of the school records of the two Oswald boys at Beauregard. You are right in being skeptical about the authenticity of the records, especially when we only have copies of original documents, such as those from Beauregard. At the same time, the Warren Commission staff made a fatal error in publishing records of one Oswald boy attending school in PS 44 in New York City (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 697) and another Oswald boy attending school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 817) at the same time in fall 1953. On the basis of those two documents alone, we have evidence of the existence of "Harvey" and "Lee."
I still believe that Bruce has raised two excellent queries about Beauregard:
(1) HOMEROOM: If Myra was not assigned a homeroom until the academic year 1954-55, then Harvey Oswald could not have been a student in her homeroom, as he was residing in Forth Worth in fall 1954. One clue to resolving this matter is Myra's reference to teaching Harvey in the basement cafeteria of Beauregard. It would be unlikely that a teacher would be assigned a homeroom in a school cafeteria, which requires time for setting up for the students' lunches, then cleaning up their mess. But it would be a suitable location for a physical education teacher who had not yet been assigned a homeroom in the academic year 1953-54. There is corroborating evidence that Harvey sustained an injury in the basement cafeteria, where his teacher Myra came to his assistance. This at least helps to support the credibility of Myra as an eyewitness.
(2) YEARBOOK PHOTO: The yearbook photo of 1954-55 really looks like Harvey Oswald. He has the same dimples as the boy in the Bronx Zoo photo. By contrast, lanky Lee Oswald does not have dimples. I can't resolve this issue, but I would really like to see the 1953-54 Beauregard yearbook to learn if there is any photo or reference to Oswald. There is an online class reunion site called classmates.com, which advertises old yearbooks. That site might also be a place to connect with people in the New Orleans area. The children or grandchildren of those attending Beauregard Junior High in 1953-54 might have one of those priceless books.
James
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Dawn Meredith - 11-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:That would be Jim Hargrove Dawn.
====
Jim N... thanks for your kind words
I see that now Jim, thanks. The book will have a few conflicts... this is one of them.
One of the most mysterious times in young OSWALD's lives is the summer and fall of 1953 (North Dakota, Bronx Zoo photo Louise Robertson the "maid", Jacobi Hosptial references 2 years before opening....). Myra does not see HARVEY until Spring semester 1953/4 school year - CE1384 has OSWALD in Sept 1953 as 5'4" 115lbs. This is the Bronx Zoo photo - I found these rails were standard height 36"... THIS BOY is not the same LEE attending ps44 in NYC and one of the tallest/biggest/leader kids in the class. the inset is his 6th grade picture... the Bronx zoo is at least 12 if not 18 months later...
These are not the same boys - as John Pic so clearly pointed out.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5542[/ATTACH]
Other than the line on the BJHS record these are the only two other people who support HARVEY being at BJHS in the SPRING 1954.
Myra and fellow teacher Dorothy Duvik followed Voebel into the basement
cafeteria and found Harvey on the floor with a small, upright piano, laying across his legs.
The two women, along with Voebel, pulled Harvey out from underneath the piano and
asked him what had happened.
My own analysis of that record (the BJHS record) is a bit different than John's at this point. From the grade cards for the two classes HARVEY took we see a complete set of TERM grades for SPRING 54 - the 2nd semester of 8th grade - while there is only 1 TERM GRADE for the FALL... the LAST one.
Which to me means that the student arrived late in the semester (as HARVEY usually did) and was only graded once suggesting HARVEY does not attend until about Nov 1953. If he was there earlier he would have more TERM GRADES in the fall than just the one... at least in my thinking.
NOTE: the 303 on the cards is LEE's homeroom # - on the third floor, which were only given to 9th graders. The thing to remember is that TWO RECORDS have been combined into ONE person... LEE, who started BJHS in JAN 1954. LEE was never the truant in NYC, did not go to YOUTH HOUSE and attended NYC school ps44 as expected... (yet the NYC school records are also "created" as the number of days it is said he attended school is simply wrong... the WCR tries to put 124 school days into the period from 3/23/53 thru 6/4/53... (I've posted these records side by side to show how they have been written, rewritten and changed...
I happen to believe that the 54-55 year is also a composite (see 2nd graphic) as the grade cards and cumulative records do not match... and there were more than 180 days in the SPRING semester... (180 was the minimum # of days in a school year... I think the BJHS record was manufactured after the fact by combining HARVEY and LEE's records. (Last school is listed as ps44: BYRON JHS - which did not exist and insured that BJHS would not get the records... ther are 3 ps44's in NY: Bronx, Queens and Manhattan - which one LEE attended is still not definite - it is possible H&L both attended a ps44 without being together)
From H&L p.87
"Room 303 is on the third floor of Beauregard Junior High School, while Myra's homeroom was in the basement cafeteria"
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[ATTACH=CONFIG]5541[/ATTACH]
David: Yes I realize it is Jim Hargrove, the person who started this thread. And does John Armstrong's website.
By the way thanks for all the great photographic work you are doing here David.
I am extremely busy with work and family matters at the moment, but As I looked through this l-o-n- g thread yesterday and today before court I was struck by all of your supporting documentation. I just wanted to make a quick acknowledgement.
Dawn
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Bruce Baird - 11-12-2013
Hi David and James,
I am trying to work up a series of photos to see if the 1955 yearbook photo is of a truly different person than LHO's earlier schoolboy pictures but I thought I should jump back into the conversation you two are having to put in my two cents since I have a little experience with basement homerooms.
I attended McDonogh No. 28 on Esplanade Avenue in New Orleans in 7th grade (1968-69) and 8th grade (1969-7) and my 8th grade homeroom was in the basement. McDonogh No. 28 is about two miles from Beauregard Junior High. I've never been in Beauregard but from what I've read the two must have been quite similar. Three stories with the first story called the basement because you went up steps to enter the building and then you had to go down steps to the "basement". The basement had the cafeteria, the stage (for official functions), an area in front of the stage where the students would mill around in the morning before classes if they didn't go outside, the PE changing rooms, and just a couple of classrooms. The great bulk of the classrooms were on the 2nd and 3rd floors.
My 8th grade homeroom was in one of those classrooms just to the right as you entered the basement. The one neat thing about having a homeroom in the basement is that you got a locker in the basement which meant you could easily access your locker before school. As I remember you couldn't go upstairs until classes began. Outside was a giant black top. No grass. No trees. Some basketball hoops. All surrounded by a giant fence. From what I read about Beauregard it was the same way back in 1954-55.
Homerooms, as I remember, were strictly for attendance. You go there at the beginning of school, the teacher takes attendance, and then you go to your first class. While I remember many of my regular teachers and students I had in my regular classes, I wouldn't be able to tell you anything about my homeroom teacher or students in my homeroom. Homerooms were organized alphabetically by grade, so in 8th grade I was in a basement homeroom with a bunch of other 8th graders who names began to A's, B's and C's.
Myra somewhere talks about taking attendance on the stage or in the cafeteria but we never did that. That suggests she did not have a regular classroom like we did. But homeroom did not really require a room to take attendance.
David, you still seem to be stuck on the idea that Myra Darouse Larue had her homeroom in the 1953-54 school year but I think if you watch her interview carefully you will see that she clearly states she had a homeroom in the 1954-55 school year.
There are other things in her interview that I did not mention. The Youtube audio is rather choppy at times and the video is fast-forwarded for some reason in some sections with no audio.
In one section Myra seems to be saying that she used to see "Harvey" in the Beauregard school library that year AFTER she had him in her homeroom! This would mean she had him in her homeroom as a 7th or 8th grader in 1954-55, NOT a 9th grader.
Q: [garbled] you didn't see [garbled]
A: [garbled] summertime, he made some friends, he did... something happened, he found himself or something, but he still used that library [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gydTxr_ed8o, 1:23-1:40]
A: [garbled] summertime, he made some friends, he did... something happened, he found himself or something, but he still used that library [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 2, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gydTxr_ed8o, 1:23-1:40]
And despite the fact that she has insisted that she had her homeroom beginning in September 1954 (for the 1954-55) school year, by the end of the interview, the interviewer has her saying something different. There are actually two off-camera voices. I assume one if John Armstrong. And somewhere I have heard that Robert Groden was taking the video, so perhaps the other voice was Robert Groden. BTW, a man whom I believe must be Myra's husband (i.e., Mr. Larue), although he is never introduced in the video, also is interviewed and it seems he had something to do with preparing certain yearbooks for preparation but it is never made clear.
Q: His first year as recorded on the Beauregard school records was the 1953-54 school year. You read it as being enrolled in January 1954.
A: Hmm-hmm.
Q: So it would be approximately March or April of 1954 that you saw them in the fight on the west side of the school and then -- was it shortly thereafter that he and Voebel were playing around the...
A: No, the piano was before the fight outside!
Q: The piano was before the fight outside?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: So the piano would have been how long after he -- when you entered
A: I'm coaching basketball.
Q. That's winter.
A: So you see that's like February or early March.
Q. Exactly.
...
Q: OK, let's go through that again. So in chronological order then, Oswald would have come to school and you would have asked him how he wanted to be known and he would have said to you -- Harvey.
A: Harvey.
Q: Then the next thing of any significance that happened is you were coaching basketball and you remember -- why don't you tell us about the fight, not the fight, the
A: The piano.
Q: Voebel comes running out
...
A: When he came to my homeroom he just came with a name.
Q: And that would have been February or March of 54.
A: Yea. There was no...that's how I know he lived on Exchange. When he came to my room he just came a name. No address or anything.
Q: Sure. [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 5, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it33MLo6y_4, 0: 08-3: 24]
A: Hmm-hmm.
Q: So it would be approximately March or April of 1954 that you saw them in the fight on the west side of the school and then -- was it shortly thereafter that he and Voebel were playing around the...
A: No, the piano was before the fight outside!
Q: The piano was before the fight outside?
A: Oh, yeah.
Q: So the piano would have been how long after he -- when you entered
A: I'm coaching basketball.
Q. That's winter.
A: So you see that's like February or early March.
Q. Exactly.
...
Q: OK, let's go through that again. So in chronological order then, Oswald would have come to school and you would have asked him how he wanted to be known and he would have said to you -- Harvey.
A: Harvey.
Q: Then the next thing of any significance that happened is you were coaching basketball and you remember -- why don't you tell us about the fight, not the fight, the
A: The piano.
Q: Voebel comes running out
...
A: When he came to my homeroom he just came with a name.
Q: And that would have been February or March of 54.
A: Yea. There was no...that's how I know he lived on Exchange. When he came to my room he just came a name. No address or anything.
Q: Sure. [John Armstrong - Myra DaRouse Larue Interview Part 5, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it33MLo6y_4, 0: 08-3: 24]
At this point the interviewer has Mrs Larue agreeing that she had her homeroom in 1953-1954. I don't believe Mrs. Larue knew what she was agreeing to because she had made it clear at the start when she had to put her thoughts together that her homeroom was in 1954-55. Unless there was something in the fast-forwarded section to get Mrs. Larue to change her mind (which I seriously doubt), I think this is highly suspicious and demands an explanation. Was the interviewer so determined to prove that "Harvey" had been at Beauregard in the spring of 1954 that he "tricked" Mrs. Larue into agreeing that she had her homeroom in 1953-1954 when she had stated so clearly that it was 1954-1955? Or was it a simple and unfortunate misunderstanding? I was truly inspired by reading Harvey and Lee but this kind of sleight of hand raises some serious concerns about the way that John Armstrong conducts interviews. I encourage all those interested in the mystery of the two Oswalds to watch the Larue video themselves and draw their own conclusions.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - James Norwood - 12-12-2013
Bruce,
I replayed the entire interview with Myra DaRouse. I found the copy on the Poage site to be of slightly better caliber than the generic youtube link you provided: http://www.baylor.edu/lib/poage/jfk/index.php?id=72686#
In reviewing this interview, there is absolutely no "trickery" or "slight of hand" on the part of the interviewers. It is clear that the two interviewers and the two people being interviewed (Myra and her friend) are simply trying to sort out an enormously complex history--the same history that we are attempting to understand in our forum conversation. There are no "leading questions" on the part of the interviewers and there is no attempt on the part of the interviewers "to put words in the mouth" of Myra DaRouse. Indeed, the majority of the interview consists of Myra simply telling her story.
You and I are both former teachers. So, let me put it in terms that you will certainly understand. Right now, you are asking sharp questions and going on the attack with your criticisms. But you have yet to add anything to advance our understanding and interpretation of the evidence about Oswald in New Orleans in 1953-55. As a teacher, I have the sense that I am interacting with a "smarty pants"!
To advance this discussion, I have several questions for you:
(1) The Warren Commission published records of one Oswald boy attending school in PS 44 in New York City (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 697) and another Oswald boy attending school at Beauregard Junior High in New Orleans (WCH Vol. XXII, p. 817) at the same time in fall 1953. How do you explain the discrepancy?
(2) Myra DaRouse recalls a boy she taught who is much shorter than the 5'4" Oswald boy measured in New York City the previous year. The shorter boy answers to "Harvey" and never engages in fights. But the much taller boy is remembered by Ed Voebel as a fighter. When specifically did Myra teach Harvey and when was Lee befriended by Ed Voebel?
(3) In fall 1954, there is overwhelming evidence that Harvey is a student for at least a six-week period at Stripling Junior High School in Ft. Worth. At this time, Lee is attending Beauregard in New Orleans. How do you account for the discrepancy?
If we can get the conversation focused around these topics, then we might generate productive discourse. If that doesn't happen, then I will be dropping out of this thread.
James