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John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Martin White - 13-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:(NOTE: when exhumed, the autopsied head of LHO did NOT have a craniotomy which Rose knows he performed, not the scars we knew LEE had accumulated.
just sayin... :hock:: )
DJ
Would autopsy photos normally show the head after the craniotomy? Or is there an autopsy photo showing the head stitched back up?
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Bruce Baird - 13-12-2013
Hey David and James,
You guys have asked a lot of interesting questions about NYC, Ft. Worth, Myra Darouse, Ed Voebel, etc. I'll take a quick break to start responding to your questions, but rather than answer them each fully (which would take a lot of time), I'll answer with what I have from my working hypothesis, a timeline that I have already worked up, and what other additional information I can remember off the top of my head. I will also ask questions that maybe you two might have answers to that could help me sort through the evidence. I will refer to "Lee" and "Harvey" for the time being for the sake of keeping the two distinct, although I am highly suspect of references that claim either one of the Oswalds went by the name "Harvey".
This post I'll address what I have on NYC.
On NYC, my working hypothesis is that "Lee" and the "real" Marguerite moved to NYC in late August 1952 and lived there until January 1954. I further believe that, if you ignore certain pieces of evidence that I find questionable, all the references to LHO in the extant records of NYC refer solely to "Lee". There were no two Oswalds until January 1954. The questionable evidence includes:
(1) Policewoman Felicia Shpritzer of the Youth Division of the 48th detective squad (Bathgate Avenue, Bronx) picks up a boy named Lee Harvey Oswald and serves him with the outstanding warrant for truancy (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee p. 54). Armstrong cites Alfred Robbins, NY Journal American, section 7, p. 1, but I can find no such reference to Shpritzer. The only article I can find by for Robbins related to the JFK assassination supports single gunman [Alfred Robbins, "Who Killed President Kennedy? Who Was the Man in the Doorway?", New York Journal-American, Sun., May 24, 1964, p. 16-L] [http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/White%20Assassination%20Clippings%20Folders/Chronology/Chron%20119.pdf]
(2) the Bronx Zoo photograph that Robert Oswald claims to have taken of LHO in summer 1953 although back of photo reads "1952" (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee p. 65-66). I have no idea who this person is. If this is "Harvey" from 1952 or 1953, this does not mean that there actually was a "Harvey" in 1952 or 1953, only that Robert Oswald was in on the conspiracy.
(3) Marguerite hires housekeeper Louise Robertson for six weeks to clean apartment 2-3 days per week (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee p. 69). Actually I don't think this bit of evidence actually affects by hypothesis one way or another. I just found it rather spurious.
(4) sightings of Harvey Oswald in Stanley, ND in the Summer of 1953 (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee p. 69-72). I have done a whole bunch of work on North Dakota, especially focusing on what Aline Mosby actually wrote and when she actually wrote it. Mosby first broke the story of LHO going to North Dakota. I have combed all the quotes that she attributes to LHO in the two 1959 UPI articles, the 1963 UPI article, and her subsmission to the Warren Commission. I am still waiting on a copy of L'Express in which she published yet another version of the story of the 1959 interview based on her original notes. I bought a copy a couple of weeks ago from Europe and when it gets here I'll go through it and publish the results. The rest of the claims for North Dakota I find rather suspect and even if "Harvey" had lived in North Dakota, I don't believe he necessarily would have had to have gone by the name Oswald at the time to be able to tell that story. In other words, if the North Dakota reference is real, this might be a pre-"Harvey" "Harvey"!
(5) all the psychiatrists and NYC officials, including Dr. Milton Kurion, who claimed from November 1963 (or a later date) that a decade (or more) earlier they remember a very short, emaciated, concentration camp survivor LHO. I won't go into details about these psychiatrists and NYC officials here or why I think their memory was faulty. But in this instance I prefer to trust the original records (wherever the originals may be in FBI heaven) as more believable and they all describe a healthy boy of average height.
(6) report cards showing LHO attending Beauregard Junior High School in the fall of 1953. I will have to cover the evidence against this in a separate post.
So I have a question for David. You know the NYC records a lot better than I do. If you exclude these "questionable" pieces of evidence, can all the other evidence for LHO from August 1952 through January 1954 be explained by just one Oswald? Or are there records which suggest more than one Oswald at the same time? I would really like to see an exact chronology of what we know about LHO in NYC to see if there are any discrepancies.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 13-12-2013
Martin White Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:(NOTE: when exhumed, the autopsied head of LHO did NOT have a craniotomy which Rose knows he performed, not the scars we knew LEE had accumulated.
just sayin... :
DJ
Would autopsy photos normally show the head after the craniotomy? Or is there an autopsy photo showing the head stitched back up?
Never mind about photos.....those examining the body at exhumation NOTED [and they were trained to note such things] that the craniotomy was not present [i.e. had not been performed on that head!]....meaning to me a different head or a different body was either buried or exhumed, than the one Rose did the original autopsy on!!!!! Photos are nice, but they can be of the original body, a substituted body or manipulated to show things that weren't there in reality [or remove those that were]. This entire case is fraught with such body manipulation and substitution [living and dead].
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Martin White - 13-12-2013
Peter,
My question, although clumsily constructed, was aimed at producing documented evidence that Rose did a craniotomy on Oswald. For all I know that might well exist already? I have never seen an autopsy report for Oswald.
thanks
Martin
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 14-12-2013
Martin White Wrote:Peter,
My question, although clumsily constructed, was aimed at producing documented evidence that Rose did a craniotomy on Oswald. For all I know that might well exist already? I have never seen an autopsy report for Oswald.
thanks
Martin
Commission Exhibit 3002 is the typed autopsy report for OSWALD. It ends with the brain weight and detailed description of his brain. It does not say outright that a craniotomy was performed, yet it also does not state his brain came out by any other means.... leaving us to make a pretty good assumption.
Martin et al... the very questioning helps spark thought to suggest an answer and pursue its meaning and corroboration..... and even then we find that the tables can be turned.
The lengths taken to conceal who the man Ruby killed really was, and the ignoring of LEE interacting with key members of the same circles suggests planning
and a very real need to conceal...
HOOVER had agents get Oswald's JHS records from 10 years prior, on Nov 23, 1963... less than 8 hours after OSWALD is formally charged with JFK's murder, in order they would not be found.
If anyone can answer for that without H&L a reality enacted in 1952 (planned well in advance as so many people are migrating to the US post WWII) carried thru and substantiated by the WCR records themselves... with the same men who came out of WWII in a position to continue/initiate the activity...
IDK gentlemen and ladies. I actually went as far as to research to field work into James Earl Ray's education... and life for that matter...
not nearly the page turner as Oswald... nor nearly as important.
Let's put it this way, it either exists or was set up to look as if it does... whether it's one other LEE" playing the lead role or 10... with back stories and intrigue...
the Oswald killed was not the man pulling any triggers... and for that he was silenced.
He didn't talk over that weekend. He must have believed he was getting out of it if he kept his mouth shut, or he really did not know exactly how he was set up... only that he was.
Voice stress says he spoke the truth about being a patsy... nothing in the interrogation notes be they real or padded suggests any knowledge of a plot...
Which means LEE is at ODIO's with Hernandez and ??? I forget the name.
OK, rant over... :
:Saw the movie "NOW YOU SEE IT" with the central message from the magician: "Get closer, real close... closer you are the less you see"
The farther we step back from JFK the event and see it as JFK the puzzle piece, the more context we may discover...
DJ
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 14-12-2013
There is new information from just the last few days sure to be of interest to those following the research of John Armstrong about Harvey and Lee Oswald.
It concerns the International Rescue Committee (IRC), which was founded in 1946 by Leo Cherne following a request by Albert Einstein. For four decades, from 1951 to the early 1990s, Cherne served as IRC chairman and seemed to have reasonably obvious CIA ties. In its first year, 1946, the IRC began resettling Eastern European WWII refugees to the United States, including children.
The startling new information involves an FBI report from 12/9/63 indicating that six days earlier an IRC official had informed the NYC FBI office that the IRC had "information pertaining to OSWALD and that same would be made available to Special Agents of the New York Office." This is clearly another fascinating indication that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald may have been removed from Europe as a child and resettled in the U.S.
JA has worked up several drafts examining the new information, and his finished report should be up on harveyandlee.net within a few days. Thanks to all here for keeping interest in John's work alive.
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 14-12-2013
Jim Hargrove Wrote:There is new information from just the last few days sure to be of interest to those following the research of John Armstrong about Harvey and Lee Oswald.
It concerns the International Rescue Committee (IRC), which was founded in 1946 by Leo Cherne following a request by Albert Einstein. For four decades, from 1951 to the early 1990s, Cherne served as IRC chairman and seemed to have reasonably obvious CIA ties. In its first year, 1946, the IRC began resettling Eastern European WWII refugees to the United States, including children.
The startling new information involves an FBI report from 12/9/63 indicating that six days earlier an IRC official had informed the NYC FBI office that the IRC had "information pertaining to OSWALD and that same would be made available to Special Agents of the New York Office." This is clearly another fascinating indication that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald may have been removed from Europe as a child and resettled in the U.S.
JA has worked up several drafts examining the new information, and his finished report should be up on harveyandlee.net within a few days. Thanks to all here for keeping interest in John's work alive.
Jim
THAT is quite a find!! But amazing that at age ~7 there is a seemingly special FBI/intelligence interest in him [or anyone of that age, for that matter]! Seems to strengthen greatly the H&L scenario, IMO.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 14-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Martin White Wrote:Peter,
My question, although clumsily constructed, was aimed at producing documented evidence that Rose did a craniotomy on Oswald. For all I know that might well exist already? I have never seen an autopsy report for Oswald.
thanks
Martin
Commission Exhibit 3002 is the typed autopsy report for OSWALD. It ends with the brain weight and detailed description of his brain. It does not say outright that a craniotomy was performed, yet it also does not state his brain came out by any other means.... leaving us to make a pretty good assumption.
Martin et al... the very questioning helps spark thought to suggest an answer and pursue its meaning and corroboration..... and even then we find that the tables can be turned.
The lengths taken to conceal who the man Ruby killed really was, and the ignoring of LEE interacting with key members of the same circles suggests planning
and a very real need to conceal...
HOOVER had agents get Oswald's JHS records from 10 years prior, on Nov 23, 1963... less than 8 hours after OSWALD is formally charged with JFK's murder, in order they would not be found.
If anyone can answer for that without H&L a reality enacted in 1952 (planned well in advance as so many people are migrating to the US post WWII) carried thru and substantiated by the WCR records themselves... with the same men who came out of WWII in a position to continue/initiate the activity...
IDK gentlemen and ladies. I actually went as far as to research to field work into James Earl Ray's education... and life for that matter...
not nearly the page turner as Oswald... nor nearly as important.
Let's put it this way, it either exists or was set up to look as if it does... whether it's one other LEE" playing the lead role or 10... with back stories and intrigue...
the Oswald killed was not the man pulling any triggers... and for that he was silenced.
He didn't talk over that weekend. He must have believed he was getting out of it if he kept his mouth shut, or he really did not know exactly how he was set up... only that he was.
Voice stress says he spoke the truth about being a patsy... nothing in the interrogation notes be they real or padded suggests any knowledge of a plot...
Which means LEE is at ODIO's with Hernandez and ??? I forget the name.
OK, rant over... :
Saw the movie "NOW YOU SEE IT" with the central message from the magician: "Get closer, real close... closer you are the less you see"
The farther we step back from JFK the event and see it as JFK the puzzle piece, the more context we may discover...
DJ
Nice 'rant' DJ!...and, yes, it is a pretty hard trick to weigh a brain at autopsy without doing a craniotomy. I think only the ancient Egyptian embalmers had a technique for that!
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Albert Doyle - 14-12-2013
Since there is no reason a european rescue organization for children would have any information on a boy in Ft Worth and New Orleans this is very interesting. I wonder how the Commission dealt with this particular rumor and speculation?
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - LR Trotter - 16-12-2013
Jim Hargrove Wrote:Since I posted a link a few days ago, John has reworked my original write-up on the Mexico City mini-page to describe more fully the history of each of the four different images of "Lee Harvey Oswald." Definitely worth another look if you just saw my write-up:[URL="http://harveyandlee.net/4LHO/Mexico%20City.html"]
http://harveyandlee.net/4LHO/Mexico%20City.html[/URL]
Jim
After developing a physical condition earlier that required surgery in October, I am a little behind on the posts in this forum and likely will not catch up, so if this issue has been discussed I do apoligize. But, the picture id'd as at the Cuban Consulate that is supposedly LHO, to me at least, resembles the Dealey Plaza Umbrella Man.
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