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+--- Thread: John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee (/thread-11170.html)
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 16-12-2013
LR Trotter Wrote:...... But, the picture id'd as at the Cuban Consulate that is supposedly LHO, to me at least, resembles the Dealey Plaza Umbrella Man.
Well, he does look quite like him, at that....Do we have any photos of him in direct profile...I can't think of one.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 16-12-2013
Seems to me Umbrella man was much thinner...
I do see a resemblence to THIS guy though...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5564[/ATTACH]
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 16-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Seems to me Umbrella man was much thinner...
I do see a resemblence to THIS guy though...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5564[/ATTACH]
No, no, not that man...the one to the left of him on the four photos!
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 16-12-2013
Jim Hargrove Wrote:There is new information from just the last few days sure to be of interest to those following the research of John Armstrong about Harvey and Lee Oswald.
It concerns the International Rescue Committee (IRC), which was founded in 1946 by Leo Cherne following a request by Albert Einstein. For four decades, from 1951 to the early 1990s, Cherne served as IRC chairman and seemed to have reasonably obvious CIA ties. In its first year, 1946, the IRC began resettling Eastern European WWII refugees to the United States, including children.
The startling new information involves an FBI report from 12/9/63 indicating that six days earlier an IRC official had informed the NYC FBI office that the IRC had "information pertaining to OSWALD and that same would be made available to Special Agents of the New York Office." This is clearly another fascinating indication that Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald may have been removed from Europe as a child and resettled in the U.S.
JA has worked up several drafts examining the new information, and his finished report should be up on harveyandlee.net within a few days. Thanks to all here for keeping interest in John's work alive.
Jim
Hey there Jim...
The only info I can find on the IRC and the Oswalds has to do with their requests to return from Russia in 61/62. And that EKDAHL was his Stepfather for 3 years... (why include that??) and his divorce info (Fred Korth his attorney)
Are you referring to something else that suggests involvement between LHO and IRC prior to 1961 ??
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20037/105-37a.pdf
Information received re EDWINALBERT EKDAHL, subject's
stepfather, set forth.Information contained in files of International
Rescue Committee, NYC, re subjectset forth. Interview
of DORIS EBEL, whose sistermarried subject's stepbrother, and
interview of MARY FUHRMAN, motherof EBEL, set out. On 12/5/63,
JOHN J. ABT, Attorney for GUSHALL - BENJAMIN J. DAVIS Defense
Committee, NYC, furnished itemsor correspondence between subject (LHO)
and above Committee and same setout herein. Employee of General
- Services Administration, NYC,advised that one HUGO T. SEGARRA,
a co-worker, had stated to herPresident KENNEDY would probably
- be killed some day by either aCuban or a Cuban organization.
SEGARRA's interview set forth.
(DJ: This is the beginning of last of the 4 letters in the archives from the IRC....)
LEE H.OSWALD
Kalininia St.4, Apt. 24
Minsk,U.S.S.R.
[B]January 26,1962[/B]
InternationalRescue Committee
215 Park Ave South
'New York, NY
"DearSirs,
"I'dlike to request your aid in helping myself
and my wifeto get resettled in the U.S.A. I am a citizen
of theUnited States, I have lived in the Soviet Union since
October 1959. My wife is a Soviet citizen, bornin the USSR
in 1941.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 16-12-2013
Peter Lemkin Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Seems to me Umbrella man was much thinner...
I do see a resemblence to THIS guy though...
No, no, not that man...the one to the left of him on the four photos!
This guy then.... Is there any more info for the photo on the left?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5566[/ATTACH]
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Albert Doyle - 16-12-2013
That would be cool if he was the guy on the bus the Australian girls witnessed.
A lot of similarities but he could be off by a nose. Not sure.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 16-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Hey there Jim...
The only info I can find on the IRC and the Oswalds has to do with their requests to return from Russia in 61/62. And that EKDAHL was his Stepfather for 3 years... (why include that??) and his divorce info (Fred Korth his attorney)
Are you referring to something else that suggests involvement between LHO and IRC prior to 1961 ??
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20037/105-37a.pdf
Information received re EDWINALBERT EKDAHL, subject's
stepfather, set forth.Information contained in files of International
Rescue Committee, NYC, re subjectset forth. Interview
of DORIS EBEL, whose sistermarried subject's stepbrother, and
interview of MARY FUHRMAN, motherof EBEL, set out. On 12/5/63,
JOHN J. ABT, Attorney for GUSHALL - BENJAMIN J. DAVIS Defense
Committee, NYC, furnished itemsor correspondence between subject (LHO)
and above Committee and same setout herein. Employee of General
- Services Administration, NYC,advised that one HUGO T. SEGARRA,
a co-worker, had stated to herPresident KENNEDY would probably
- be killed some day by either aCuban or a Cuban organization.
SEGARRA's interview set forth.
(DJ: This is the beginning of last of the 4 letters in the archives from the IRC....)
LEE H.OSWALD
Kalininia St.4, Apt. 24
Minsk,U.S.S.R.
[B]January 26,1962[/B]
InternationalRescue Committee
215 Park Ave South
'New York, NY
"DearSirs,
"I'dlike to request your aid in helping myself
and my wifeto get resettled in the U.S.A. I am a citizen
of theUnited States, I have lived in the Soviet Union since
October 1959.My wife is a Soviet citizen, bornin the USSR
in 1941.
Hi, David,
Megathanks for that link! I had seen just the report from O'Flaherty and not the following one in the file you linked quoting the 1/62 letter to IRC from Oswald in Minsk. That certainly could account entirely for Vanden Heuvel's FBI tip, ruining our excitement. OTOH, it could also indicate Harvey Oswald had experience(s) with IRC before, understood what they did, including with WWII orphans, and therefore contacted them in 1962. Don't have the information to prove or disprove that speculation now, though. Thanks again.
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Bruce Baird - 17-12-2013
One of the things that has always frustrated me the most in trying to make sense of the JFK assassination is the difficulty of deciding whom (if any) of the many witnesses to trust. One of the most important and yet enigmatic witnesses in the LHO story is Ed Voebel, who according to the Warren Commission was practically the only friend that LHO his entire life. The WC cited Voebel extensively on many aspects of LHO's teen years although they quite tellingly ignored Voebel's strong assertions that LHO was not at all interest in Marxism in junior high years. To John Armstrong, Voebel is critically important as one of the few people who knew both Harvey and Lee. Indeed, Armstrong suggests that this knowledge may have been the reason why Voebel died so mysteriously at age 31.
"NOTE: In May 1971, Ed Voebel suddenly became ill and was taken to the Ochsner Clinic in New Orleans. A physician called his family and asked if he (Voebel) had been exposed to "insecticide poisons. " Family members told the physician he had not been exposed to any poisons. After spending the night in the hospital Voebel called home, said he was feeling much better, and expected to be home within a day. But that evening Voebel died suddenly of a "blot clot," after allegedly suffering an attack of pneumonia. Voebel, according to his sister, died in the Ochsner clinic (Dr. Alton Ochsner, as we shall see, was a member of the CIA-sponsored Information Council of the Americas). Voebel's death certificate, however, shows that he died at Foundation Hospital in Metairie, La. In 1978 Voebel's father told the HSCA, even though he had no proof, that he believed his son died under mysterious circumstances." [Armstrong, Harvey and Lee 121-122.]
In Armstrong's Harvey and Lee, Voebel plays a critical role in almost every event that happens to LHO at Beauregard Junior High School: the incident where the piano fell on "Harvey" (p. 85), the fight between "Lee" and the Neumeyer brothers (pp. 91-92), the punch by Robin Riley that knocks out "Lee"'s tooth (pp. 92-93), the English 202 classroom picture that is published in Life magazine (p. 93), the Warren Easton high school orientation (p. 118), the observation that "Lee" was not at all interested in Marxism (pp. 120-121), and joining the Civil Air Patrol at Moisant Airport (pp. 122-124). Voebel was also the only person who was known to have visited "Lee" at 126 Exchange Place and met the "real" Marguerite there (pp. 103, 119).
Following the assassination, Voebel is the first person interviewed who knew LHO at Beauregard. Indeed his interview on WWL-TV (Channel 4, the CBS affiliate in New Orleans) on Saturday, November 23, has a dramatic effect on later events. It was after seeing this interview on TV that Jack Martin called ?? informing him that David Ferrie had known LHO. It was also after this interview that other former CAP members like John Ciravolo and Fred O'Sullivan started coming forth with their knowledge of the relationship between Ferrie and Oswald in the CAP, which subsequently led to Ferrie's arrest on the grounds that he had lied about not knowing Oswald.
In terms of judging Voebel as a witness, however, I have a lot of questions. Firstly I have not seen a full account of what Voebel said in the immediate aftermath. I have seen an excerpt from the WWL-TV interview that was broadcast nationally on CBS on Sunday, November 24, shortly after the LHO was killed. But I have yet to see the video or transcript of the original WWL-TV interview which must have been much longer because there is no mention of the CAP in the national CBS broadcast. I have seen references that the original WWL broadcast actually mentioned David Ferrie's name as associated with the CAP. Jack Martin said the original broadcast also mentioned that LHO at the time of his arrest had in his possession Ferrie's library card. Are there extant tapes or transcripts of the original WWL-TV interview? If so, how can we access them?
In addition to the WWL-TV interview, LHO was supposedly also interviewed by WDSU-TV (Channel 6, the NBC affiliate in New Orleans) and interviewed by the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and possibly other newspapers. Has anybody seen these interviews and know how to access them? Any info about other pre-FBI interviews that Voebel gave would be most gratefully appreciated!
I am working on the idea that what Voebel said in these first couple of days was done quite spontaneously, motivated by his desire to share what he knew about this person Lee Oswald he had know as a teenager. However, after the FBI got ahold of him, I think that Voebel was increasingly managed, which I think you can see when you compare this first interview with his later FBI interviews and Warren Commission testimony. I thiink that by going through this evidence carefully and sequentially we can gain some insight into what exactly Voebel knew and what was fabricated.
I'll start with the first bit of evidence we have on Voebel -- the CBS national broadcast. Below the link I have included my transcription of what the interviewer and Voebel said. I cannot completely vouch that the transcription is 100% accurate. I've tried to include all the "uhh's" and mannerisms that I noticed but I'm sure I could add quite a few more if I kept at it. I feel quite a lot of empathy for court reporters just now!
(BTW, does anybody know who the interviewer was? Bill Reid, the News Director at WWL-TV, is mentioned with reference to this interview in FBI reports, but I don't know whether he conducted interviews.)
The question I would like you to consider as you watch this is video:
"Is this the spontaneous, uncoached memories of Ed Voebel?"
The interview with Ed Voebel begins at approximately 18:05.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly0ocEMK5r8 - t=1349
Q: Would you tell us uhh your first encounter as you can recall. This has been what about eight
VOEBEL: It was about eight years ago.
Q: Eight years ago? Tell us about it.
VOEBEL: Uhh, well I, he came in uhh Beauregard's uhh mid-semester and uhh he had uhh a fight with a couple of boys and that's how I first uhh saw him. And uhh at the next day uhh someone had punched him in the mouth, but uhh Oswald didn't know, I didn't know, uhh uhh and I don't think the boy even know him, knew him. Uhh, I think these boys that he had a fight with them put this other guy up to punch him in the mouth to get back at him because Oswald did beat the other boys. And uhh Oswald was laying down on the ground and I ran up to him and I think a couple other boys did too and we brought him back in the school and uhh washed his mouth off and put some umm cold compresses on his mouth.
Q: And and this is uhh more or less the start of a friendship between you and Oswald at that time?
VOEBEL: Well, that's when we first met uhh was when this happened.
Q: And uhh what type of boy was he at 15? I understand uhh this was about the age of that year?
VOEBEL: Well, uhh he didn't uhh seem to mix too well with the uhh the rest of the uhh boys or the girls and anyone there at the school. He didn't seem to have any uhh friends. Uhh he didn't seem to be really interested in anything uhh. He didn't participate in any extra-curricular activities. Uhh he was just a loner, it seemed like. (licks lips)
Q: I'll tell you one one reason I'm concerned about the age of uhh 15 and this reportedly is when uhh Oswald first became interested or came in contact with the Marxist theory. Now did he at any time during your relationship with him did he mention anything about his readings of uhh uhh Leftist or Marxist uhh uhh literature?
VOEBEL: No, he (clears throat) he didn't mention anything at all about uhh any politics or socialism, communism, Marxism or anything and I don't believe that's true. I don't believe he had any really basic ideas on Marxism or anything at fifteen years of life. I think uhh that came later somewhere along the line because he never (shakes head) mentioned anything like that to me at all. (licks lips)
Q: Now in in talking uhh earlier before this interview, you you mentioned you had been to his house. Could you uhh tell us a little about his home life?
VOEBEL: Well, he uhh when I knew him he lived in Exchange Alley, I think was 126 Exchange Place or Alley. Uhh it was a small apartment and it lived above uhh above above poolrooms. And uhh in that area there is nothing but poolrooms and barrooms and it's sort of almost a skid row, it's a very bad uhh neighborhood.
Q: Well this uhh was before or after his father died?
A. Oh, this his father from what I understand died when he was very young and uhh this was this was after I think he had moved to Texas. After his father had died his mother brought him to Texas then he came back here again. And this was his uhh second time in New Orleans.
Q: And he sort of, uhh as I understand it, sort of blamed the world for his uhh his problems, Isn't that what you mentioned earlier?
VOEBEL: Well I, it seemed that way to me after at the time, I didn't uhh uhh have any basic opinions why he was a little different than uhh most of us. Uhh it didn't uhh enter my mind at all. Uhh I uhh sort of liked him that because he wasn't the general run of the mill that I had known at school. Uhh he was a little above them, he seemed to be at least even though he was he came from uhh a poor family let's say. And uhh he wasn't exactly a ruffian. Uhh he he just had had a little something about him, there was something that was just a little different from the average ruffian that I'd known at that school. ["JFK'S ASSASSINATION (CBS-TV) (PART 5), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly0ocEMK5r8 - t=1349,18:05-22:26]
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 17-12-2013
Hey there Bruce... glad you are embracing all this... yet I am not sure where you are trying to go... H&L is not about microanalyzing the situation but looking at the conflicts...
By looking at what the FBI chose to ignore or drop as soon as they were aware.
VOEBEL is pretty clear about MO. That VOEBEL meets a small HARVEY in early 1954 and the much bigger LEE in OCT 1954 (HARVEY had already moved to FT Worth 2220 Thomas by Stripling)
To ED, HARVEY had gone from a smaller boy in JAN 1954, to the much bigger boy in OCT 1954 and had not seen him since JUNE 1954 as was NOT aware of the school records from NYC showing OSWALD as 5'4" and 115lbs, he simply sees his old friend (who is 6 months older than VOEBEL) as a bigger kid.
=====
Few points to make first:
You start the analysis off with:
Quote:according to the Warren Commission
According to the WCR Oswald was guilty, the SBT happened, and all the other untruths about the case are defined.... if you read any part of H&L you'd know there are a number of people the WC investigators never spoke with due to the fact they knew HARVEY in 1953/54... and later LEE in the Marines .... (CE1961 and 1962 are in direct conflict... ALLEN FELDE tells us he was with HARVEY and where and when... the dates and places simply do not match)
Quote:Q: And uhh what type of boy was he at 15? I understand uhh this was about the age of that year?
VOEBEL: Well, uhh he didn't uhh seem to mix too well with the uhh the rest of the uhh boys or the girls and anyone there at the school. He didn't seem to have any uhh friends. Uhh he didn't seem to be really interested in anything uhh. He didn't participate in any extra-curricular activities. Uhh he was just a loner, it seemed like. (licks lips)
OSWALD turned 15 in OCTOBER 1954... why is it that the FBI NEVER asks or reports anyone about knowing OSWALD in 1953/54? (Each and every person related to BJHS was asked about the 55-56 school year when LEE was at BJHS and HARVEY was at Stripling and then Truant (TX does not have the same rules about Truancy as NYC)
August 1, 1955 (15 months prior to 10/9/56)[TABLE="width: 491"]
[TR]
[TD]
HARVEY letter states he's been studying MARXISM for 15 months until he finally makes a request for Socialist Party info dated Oct 9 1956.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0023b.htm
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
From an FBI report by SA Brown:
"EDWARD VOEBEL, who resides at 4916 Canal (locationof Quality Florist Company) advised he knew OSWALD at Beauregard
Junior High School during 1955 and 1956."
HARVEY begins attending WARREN EASTON in SEPT 1955 yet leaves to San Diego in mid OCTOBER 1955.
LEE works at Tujages thru the summer of 1956 and does NOT attend high school
During the time that ED VOEBEL visited HARVEY at 126 Exchange (Jan-June 1[B]954) [/B] he never meets MO; MO and LEE are living with Myrtle Evans at 1454 St Mary's.
In the FALL 1954, ED meets LEE and is friends with him thru CAP in the summer of 1955. He meets the tall, good-looking MO at Exchange during this time.
Mr. JENNER - Who else was in the apartment besides Marguerite?
Mrs. EVANS - Just her and Lee.
Mr. JENNER - You did see Lee after they returned from New York?
Mrs. EVANS - Oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, I guess about 6 months.
(DJ: They arrived January 12, 1954 at MO sister's LILLIAN MURRET and stayed only a couple weeks - the address on the BJHS record is 809 French. This is a photo of the MO caregiver at 126 Exchange in Feb 1954)
Mr. JENNER - Including Lee?
Mrs. EVANS - Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER - She and Lee lived in your home for 6 months?
Mrs. EVANS - In this apartment, yes.
Mr. JENNER - In the No. 6 apartment?
(NOTE: The WCR testimony lists "Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La" what they fail to tell you is this is the same situation as CAMP street... the FRONT of her house/apartments was 1454/1452 St Mary's (below), while the side entrance to the same house and apartments is at 1910 Prytania.... to the right of that is 126 Exchange )
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5574[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5575[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5576[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5577[/ATTACH]
VOEBEL stated that OSWALD did not tell him when
he was leaving town. He stated that one day he stopped by
OSWALD'S apartment on Exchange Place and OSWALD was gone.
This was sometime around 1955
Mr. JENNER - Do you know how it was that she went to live at 126 Exchange Place in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Was that 1954 or 1955?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at Myrtle's house first.
Mr. JENNER - Could it have been that Myrtle Evans lived, in the spring of 1954, at 1454 St. Mary Street?
Mrs. MURRET - I don't know. Maybe that's right. I know this was a very old house where she lived. I was told that she had a family home---Myrtle and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants.
Mr. JENNER - How long did they stay at your house?
Mrs. MURRET - At my house?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mrs. MURRET - Well, like I said, 2 weeks or 3 weeks at the most, somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER - And you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on Exchange Alley?
Mrs. MURRET - Well, either there or to Myrtle's apartment. I don't know which, to be truthful with you.
In APRIL 1955 we learn that both MO/HARVEY are gone from DOLLY SHOE and head back to Ft Worth
In MARCH 1955 the apartment at 1454 St Mary's becomes too expensive so they move to Exchange... on APRIL 15, 1955 LEE and MO move into 126 Exchange (the pattern of LEE and/or HARVEY following each other to the same apartments and schools allows for a more believeable cover story.)
Mrs. EVANS - Well, he would yell, "Maw, come and fix my supper," and he had a
loud voice, and I could hear him more and more up there, and it got to be quite
disturbing, actually. It seemed to be a situation that was getting worse all the
time; so I thought maybe it would be better if I didn't have them around; so,
since the apartment wasn't fixed up anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door,
she up and moved, and that's when she went to Exchange Alley.
Mr. JENNER - O.K. That was in April of 1955; is that right?
Mrs. EVANS - Yes, and I never saw her after that.
Mr. JENNER - You never saw her again?
Mrs. EVANS - No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER - You didn't see her at Exchange Alley?
Mrs. EVANS - No.
Mr. JENNER - Give me your impression of Marguerite Oswald.
Mr. EVANS - Marguerite?
Mr. JENNER - Yes.
Mr. EVANS - I think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken - a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. She h[B]as really aged. She looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. She[/B] used to be a fashion plate. She dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. There's no way to describe it, the change that has come over her. You wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. Where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks Old
Mr. JENNER - Well, she's 57, I believe.
Mr. EVANS - That's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about 70 now. That's about all I can remember about her, and then I saw this thing
on television when the President was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was Marguerite.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 18-12-2013
David Josephs Wrote:Peter Lemkin Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Seems to me Umbrella man was much thinner...
I do see a resemblence to THIS guy though...
No, no, not that man...the one to the left of him on the four photos!
This guy then.... Is there any more info for the photo on the left?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5566[/ATTACH]
To me, the biggest noticeably difference is the man in Mexico seems older than does TUM. There is some resemblance, but it's not a startling one...but who knows (or nose).