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+--- Thread: Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? (/thread-5051.html)
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Peter Lemkin - 29-06-2015
Jim Hargrove Wrote:It's not much fun being there, but I can't stand to let all the bs go unchallenged. Google and other search engines index all of it, ready to be delivered to the unsuspecting.
Ugh! I took a look over there...first time in years. Some of the old ugly voices and some new ones. Jim, you're trying to take away American Exceptionalism (all of the positive variety, of course) from them - and they will never allow that - even if it means looking at the evidence and facts. I take my hat off to you for fighting the good fight among many fools and deniers of what is before their eyes. But, America wouldn't be in the sad state (I'm being kind) it now is in if more people could see and think rationally - and without the prejudices of the groupthink propaganda lines foisted from American Exceptionalism HQ.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 29-06-2015
It is important to see who Murray Chotiner was and why any Oswald double mentioning him is important:
http://thepublici.blogspot.com/2011/03/price-of-gratitude.html
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 30-06-2015
CLAIRE BOOTH LUCE AND
AMERICAN-BORN LEE OSWALD
In the early 1960s, soon after Fidel Castro's 1959 takeover of Cuba, Clare Boothe Luce (and her husband, Life Magazine magnate Henry Luce) began to sponsor anti-Castro groups. This support, according to Wikipedia, included funding exiles in commando speedboat raids against Cuba in the early 1960s. A number of reports seem to indicate that American-born Lee Oswald was involved in some of these activities, at the same time Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was in Russia and then back home in New Orleans and Texas.
Excerpts of several documents below are from the John Armstrong collection at Baylor University. The OCR scans of these somewhat grainy pages are a little rough, but interested readers can always look at reproductions of the actual docs by clicking on this link:
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/4801/rec/1
From an FBI report dated 6/2/75 (Emphasis added by me):
===================QUOTE ON =================
On 5/16/75 at 6:30pm Deputy Attorney General Tyler
advised InspectorJohn B. Hotis and SA Paul V. Daly that he had received Informationfrom Roderic Hills, Assistant Counsel to the President, that theCommission on CIA Activities was making an inquiry into a facet of the investigation of Lee Harvey Oswald, assassin of President Kennedy, and he requested that the FBI review its files to determine if any factual basis existed for these allegations. Mr. Tyler stated that one of these allegations recelved was that former Congresswoman Clare Boothe Luce had been financing a fishing boat to transport Cuban citizens from Cuba to Miami, Florida. This was in the period of 1960-61 and Mr. Tyler later stated the time frame was 1961 to 1962. The Captain of the ship allegedly advised Mrs. Luce that Lee Harvey Oswald and others were involved in the infiltration of a communist cell group in that area and had discussed assassination plans with no assassination target identified. Mrs. Lucei nstructed the Captain to notify the FBI and he later told her thathe had done so and was leaving the country.
===================QUOTE OFF ===============
Another report is labeled Notes from 1977 Inspector General's Report
Taken by Betsy Palmer, 12/6/77
===================QUOTE ON ===============
1. Memo for Director of Central Intelligence
From: John H.Waller, Inspector General
Subject: President Kennedy Assassination - Mrs. Luce story
At behest of Director Colby, Mrs. Luce passed the story
on to Senato rRichard Schweiker. On 10 December 1975,
staff member of Senate Select Committee inquired as to
what the Agenc ythought of the story and was told it
had nothing to add to the newspaper story of Betty Beale
and suggested FBI would be the proper agency to contact.
Mrs. Luce's actual transcript could be considered news-
worthy and presented in a manner determental to CIA.
FBI was sent transcript in January 1977.
2. Transcript of telephone conversation, October 25, 1975,
Clare Booth Luce (CBL) call to William Colby (WC).
CBL got involved during and after the Bay of Pigs with
DRE. Up until the Cuban Missile Crisis when "Allen"
called her and told the secret Act had gone into effect
and that henceforth there would be no voluntary American
efforts. "I knew a number of these leaders well; they
were going in and out of Cuba, and I paid for one of the
motor boats. Bill Pawley did too." ... "The night of
the assassination,right after Oswald was caught, one
of my boys telephoned me from New Orleans." he was
captian of "her"boat ... the Cubans were told to leave
Miami. ..."he had opened a cell in New Orleans. He
telephoned me to tell me that Oswald was ...a hired gun;
Oswald had tried to penetrate their little cell; that
they turned around and did a counter penetration 30b on
Oswald; all of this was done several months before the
assassination. He said, "we had tape recordings of
what he was telling his groups." It was a counter
penetration they went on. He said, "We have photographs
of Oswald passing out handbills on the street, "Be Fair
to Cuba." He said, "We are absolutely certain that
Oswald was one of three assassination teams, that they
were working out of Mexico City 9or funded in Mexico
City) by Castro."He said there were three assassinations
teams." CBL told him to give the information to the FBI.
After Garrison investigation came up, Luce began thinking
about the incident again. She called Justin McCarthy
to ge name of Cuban -- he was now in Miami. Got him on
the phone and he told CBL that FBI took all tapes, photos
and "told us to keep our mouths shut, and shortly after
that they informed us that if any of us talked to the press dire
things would happen." Said one of the fellows on boat was
deported toGuatemala or Chile, and one was
murdered. Said he was now a lawyer, had two children,
making way in Miami and never wants to hear a damn word
about the assassination of Kennedy because you Americans
really do not want to know the truth."
============== QUOTEOFF ================
Again, scans of these documents can be downloaded from the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University at this url:
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/4801/rec/1
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 30-06-2015
Sounds like they had tapes of Oswald playing some kind of infiltration role either pro or anti-Castro. FBI destroyed evidence.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 30-06-2015
UNITED STATESDEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
FEDERAL BUREAU OFINVESTIGATION
New Orleans,Louisiana
June 19, 1967
ASSASSINATION OFPRESIDENT
JOHN FITZGERALDKENNEDY
DALLAS TEXAS,NOVEMBER 22, 1963
On June 18, 1967,Carlos Quiroga, Cuban exile,
3134 Darby Place,New Orleans, Louisiana, appeared at the
New Orleans Officeof the Federal Bureau of Investigation
(FBI) andvolunteered the following information:
During the pastweek, Carlos Bringuier, New
Orleans Cuban exileleader and key figure in the assassina-
tion probe ofOrleans Parish District Attorney James Garrison
was in Miami,Florida. Where there, he met with Jose Antonio
Lanusa, who wasleader of the Delegation of the Cuban Student
Directorate in 1963. Lanusa advised Bringuier that he had
received a telephonecall from Alberto Fowler, Cuban exile
and investigator forGarrison, during which Fowler stated
that Garrison willprove that President Kennedy was assassinated
by Cuban exiles andthat Carlos Bringuier was aware of Oswald's
purportedaffiliation with the Central Intelligence Agency.
Fowler also statedthat Bringuier and Lee Harvey Oswald had
staged theirconfrontation on Canal Street, New Orleans in
August, 1963.
Lanusa also advisedthat he had been previously
contacted (date notindicated) by Mr. Alcock: an investigator
of Garrison. Alcockaccused Lanusa of having known about
Oswald's activitiesprior to the assassination of President
Kennedy. Alcockstated that this information had been
furnished by ClaireBooth Luce. Lanusa denied this and stated
that all he knewabout Oswald prior to the assassination had
been furnished tohim by Carlos Bringuier.
On Thursday, June15, 1967, Carlos Bringuier
happened to meetAlberto Fowler on Canal Street, New
Orleans. At thispoint Fowler stated that the investigation
was becomingcomplicated because Garrison had information
that an identicaldouble of Lee Harvey Oswald existed and
this individual wasa "double agent" of the FBI.
Fowler also statedthat Garrison will attempt
to make the triallast over a year's period so that further
investigation can beconducted and additional evidence
entered.
This documentcontains neither recommendations
nor conclusions ofthe FBI. It is the property of the FBI
and is loaned toyour agency; it and its contents are not
to be distributedoutside your agency.
# # # #
Emphasis added. Above document canbe seen in its original form at the John Armstrong Collection atBaylor University at this url:
http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/compoundobject/collection/po-arm/id/4801/rec/1
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Drew Phipps - 30-06-2015
Wasn't Albert Fowler, the source of the "double" story, a CIA / Cuban "plant" on Garrison's staff? Who was a board member of INCA, and used to live with Clay Shaw? Are you sure that rumors attributed to Fowler are a credible source to support JA's work?
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 30-06-2015
Jim Hargrove Wrote:Garrison had information
that an identicaldouble of Lee Harvey Oswald existed and
this individual wasa "double agent" of the FBI.
Would love to see Garrison's files on that.
Marita Lorenz clearly saw an Oswald double in Miami in 1960-1961 that she had a firm memory of as being a "creep". People who dismiss this aren't credible.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 30-06-2015
Drew Phipps Wrote:Wasn't Albert Fowler, the source of the "double" story, a CIA / Cuban "plant" on Garrison's staff? Who was a board member of INCA, and used to live with Clay Shaw? Are you sure that rumors attributed to Fowler are a credible source to support JA's work?
According to William Davy, Alberto Fowler was a frequent companion of Clay Shaw and lived at his house for three months in 1966. Fowler was a member of the Brigade 2506 Cuban invasion team and spent time in a Castro jail. As you say, Davy is extremely skeptical of Fowler's loyalty to the Garrison team. (I'd assume Jim Di will agree, but I've misplaced my copy of Destiny Betrayed right now.)
Despite that fact, this clearly appears to be a warning from Fowler, who is no doubt giving away insider information. At a public discussion in, if memory serves, 1969 or so, Bill Boxley of Garrison's team stated that a second Oswald "probably went at least as far back as the Marine Corps," or words to that effect. (I think I posted it a year or so back in one of the Harvey and Lee threads, maybe this one.)
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Drew Phipps - 30-06-2015
If Fowler was a CIA plant to discredit Garrison or just keep tabs on his investigation, and the double story originates with him, don't you at least have to consider the possibility that the "doubles" story was CIA-designed to be a straw man for Garrison to take a swing at and then be discredited?
Isn't "Bill Boxley" a fake name for William Wood, alcoholic ex-CIA guy?
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 01-07-2015
It was Garrison who had the information, not Fowler.