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DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - LR Trotter - 12-12-2012
I admit my guilt of sarcasm when "bragging" about my GED Education disagreeing with a PhD Education, but I have to believe that in order to proceed in this life a certain degree of common sense is needed to continue along various paths. Early on in the discussion about Altgens6 Doorway Man, even I, me, over in the peanut gallery, had my cognitive function questioned because I disagreed with the "photograph showing Lee Harvey Oswald argument" as DM. I still believe, with various other evidence added to the Altgens6 photo, that the person in question is Billy Nolan Lovelady. There have been many expressed views, very well expressed with added back up, by well qualified researchers that I agree with, that invalidates the idea that DM is LHO. For the most part, it appears that the image is actually very unreliable, to me, and, I have seen several respectable posts expressing a similiar viewpoint.
:hobbyhorse:
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Seamus Coogan - 13-12-2012
Greg Burnham Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:Why does he drag me into this?
I have not said anything to him about the whole Doorway Man imbroglio.
Yes, but your hit-man, Seamus, has taken Fetzer to task--even on the things he is right about--at your presumed bequest.
Were I really Jim's attack dog Greg I'd be gnawing your leg off now for that slight lol. And coming from you Jim Fetzer's ex theologian hit man Mr Greg, I find it all rather amusing.
Seriously folks contrary to popular opinion Jim doesn't tell me how or who to go for. He doesn't really need too.
It just so happens that I think very much like Jim does (bar being slightly more aggressive at times). There's no science to it, we all encounter researchers and people we admire. You with Fletcher Prouty and Charles with GME. Sure, I am loyal to Jim-but he doesn't need my blind loyalty. Trust me we have some right arguments, we just don't have them on forums. In that regard I have also been CD's pit bull, not to mention I've rallied to your banner.
As you know I am very proud to be associated with Jim, in my opinion he is an all time great researcher. Perhaps the best...but that is wholly my opinion. If someone here doesn't agree, well I can't force it on anyone. Whats interesting that now Fetzer is gone, I more or less try moderate debates people have with Jim. It serves no purpose me blindly leaping in for him as this is not the swamp. The share majority of people on this site are pretty cool, it does Jim or others no favors if ego's get in the way.
The reality is Greg both you and Jim's comments pissed me off lol.
Jim should have told you (indeed if you had stumbled upon a few older threads). You would have seen that it was actually me that put Jim onto how bad Fetzer was becoming. Or at least I encouraged him to be more aggressive with Fetzer's bullshit publicly. I've actually explained that story a couple of times. As soon as Jim took the piss out of Fetzer, that was curtains for him. Coincidentally, it was around that time as well when I noticed you were beginning to get tired of wiping Fetzer's nose over at the EF. The only things Jim pitches at me are books for review, generally speaking we are of the same mind with the product, so it's a no brainer. All of the book reviews are pitched at me, non book reviews I actually pitch at Jim, bar the Ventura show. Which incidentally Jim and Len were terrified about me reviewing. Oh the irony my dear Greg as you shall soon see.
As for me giving Fetzer shit about the stuff 'he got right', well I have to have a giggle. I'd been aware of Weisberg's Lovelady stuff. I just wasn't aware however, that Weisberg also believed in image manipulation and all sorts of the other guff that Fetzer was on about. Weisberg voiced concerns, he didn't stake his claim on the whole thing and as I said, it appears he dropped the Oswald depository angle in later years. Anyhow, in his earlier rants, Fetzer clearly had a hard on for Weisberg's Lovelady angles in Whitewash II. It was as if nothing else mattered. However, in his Veterans today piffle, he now adds 'Photographic Whitewash' to his list of Weisberg/Lovelady musings. The catch is of course that the schmuck, only bought it up after I had told him about it ROFL.
Greg did you check out Fetzers comments with regard to 'Ron' he's utterly hilarious. He deny's he is Ron and thats fair enough. But does he think A) That the guy really got around in a wheel chair and B) Does he really believe that those documents were confidential? OMG.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Charles Drago - 13-12-2012
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Phil Dragoo Wrote:Colston Westbrook, according to Mae Brussell in a July 1974 article in . The Realist, was a CIA psywar expert. An adviser to the Korean CIA and Lon Nol in Cambodia, Westbrook from 1966 until 1969 reportedly worked (undercover as an employee of Pacific Architects and Engineers) as an adviser to the Vietnamese Police Special Branch. In 1970 Westbrook allegedly returned to the United States and was gotten a job at the University of California at Berkeley. According to Brussell, Westbrook's control officer was William Herrmann, who was connected to the Stanford Research Institute, RAND Corporation, and Hoover Center on Violence. In his capacity as an adviser to Governor Ronald Reagan, Herrmann put together a pacification plan for California at the UCLA Center for Study and Prevention of Violence. As part of this pacification plan Westbrook, a black man, was assigned the task of forming a black cultural association at the Vacaville Medical Facility. Although ostensibly fostering black pride, Westbrook was in truth conducting an experimental behavior modification program. Westbrook's job, claims Brussell, was to program unstable persons, drawn from California prisons, to assassinate black community leaders. His most successful client was Donald DeFreeze, chief of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA). It was West- brook who designed the SLA's logo (a seven-headed cobra), who gave DeFreeze his African name (Cinque), and who set Cinque and his gang on their Phoenix flight to cremation, care of the Los Angeles SWAT Team, the FBI, and U.S. Treasury agents.
http://www.american-buddha.com/phoenixprog23.htm
Phil - precisely.
Donald DeFreeze.
The Original Cinque.
The Phoenix Program transported from the jungles of Laos to the jungles of LA.
It was on January 3 of this year that I posted the following on "Cinque's" original thread, "TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady?" --
"Looks we got another one, friends. General Field Marshal Cinque Mtume lives!"
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9414-TSBD-Doorway-man-Oswald-or-Lovelady/page2
"Cinque" had opened the thread earlier that same day.
Two posts later, "Cinque" was making use of the "you haven't responded to my points" lie that the likes of Jim Fetzer and "Albert Doyle" tell in order to wriggle off hooks and prolong their provocations. I called him on it thusly:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY "DR. RALPH CINQUE":
You haven't responded to the likenesses that I pointed to- and whether those likenesses occurred by chance or otherwise. And if you are going to cling to the Lovelady hypothesis, then you have to wrestle with the odds that Oswald and Lovelady both dressed so similarly that day.
RESPONSE BY CHARLES DRAGO
I have responded DIRECTLY and REPEATEDLY to your "argument." As for my position on the Lovelady/Oswald/Altgens 6 issue -- you haven't the foggiest idea, have you? And yet the vast majority of the readers of this exchange have a very clear idea of where I stand.
Best to the girl in the closet.
Twenty-two days later, Fetzer showed up on that thread to support "Cinque."
Now examine the following two posts. They were made 16 minutes apart. One was allegedly authored by "Cinque" and the other by Fetzer. I dare you to attribute authorship:
EXHIBIT A (edited for length only)
That is preposterous. Do I have to spell it out for you?
This may be the most preposterous thing you have said yet...
I have to wonder if you even looked at the collage I posted.
EXHIBIT B
Snide remarks are not arguments. When are you going to appeal to logic and
evidence? Charles lost it long ago. Why are so many of you abandoning the
quest for the truth about JFK in foolhardy, shallow, and phony ad hominems?
Four minutes later, Fetzer (author of EXHIBIT B -- at least) does down the all-too-familiar route "Drago is an evil guru" route:
RESPONSE BY JIM FETZER
What anyone can "see with their bare eye" from reading your posts is that you haven't a clue and that, like many others here, you are no capable of evaluating evidence. "Deep Politics" is a gross misnomer. Call it The Cult of Charles Drago, who long since abandoned reason and rationality.
In short, "Cinque's" original thread (link above) stands as an invaluable inventory of the rhetorical tricks and ad hominem attacks favored by "Cinque" and Fetzer and mimicked of late by "Albert Doyle" -- who, truth be told, appeared in "his" original (to DPF) incarnation ostensibly to challenge the so-called authors of the Doorway Man snake oil being peddled here but in reality to establish deep politics bona fides in advance of future perfidy..
Almost a year has passed since "Cinque" and Fetzer materialized on DPF like brown streaks on clean sheets to launch the Doorway Man provocation. They were called IMMEDIATELY. Their "work" was demolished IMMEDIATELY.
And yet they and it continue to find safe haven in the extended JFK assassination research community.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Charles Drago - 13-12-2012
Charles Drago Wrote:Jan Klimkowski Wrote:[quote=Phil Dragoo]Colston Westbrook, according to Mae Brussell in a July 1974 article in . The Realist, was a CIA psywar expert. An adviser to the Korean CIA and Lon Nol in Cambodia, Westbrook from 1966 until 1969 reportedly worked (undercover as an employee of Pacific Architects and Engineers) as an adviser to the Vietnamese Police Special Branch. In 1970 Westbrook allegedly returned to the United States and was gotten a job at the University of California at Berkeley. According to Brussell, Westbrook's control officer was William Herrmann, who was connected to the Stanford Research Institute, RAND Corporation, and Hoover Center on Violence. In his capacity as an adviser to Governor Ronald Reagan, Herrmann put together a pacification plan for California at the UCLA Center for Study and Prevention of Violence. As part of this pacification plan Westbrook, a black man, was assigned the task of forming a black cultural association at the Vacaville Medical Facility. Although ostensibly fostering black pride, Westbrook was in truth conducting an experimental behavior modification program. Westbrook's job, claims Brussell, was to program unstable persons, drawn from California prisons, to assassinate black community leaders. His most successful client was Donald DeFreeze, chief of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA). It was West- brook who designed the SLA's logo (a seven-headed cobra), who gave DeFreeze his African name (Cinque), and who set Cinque and his gang on their Phoenix flight to cremation, care of the Los Angeles SWAT Team, the FBI, and U.S. Treasury agents.
http://www.american-buddha.com/phoenixprog23.htm
Phil - precisely.
Donald DeFreeze.
The Original Cinque.
The Phoenix Program transported from the jungles of Laos to the jungles of LA.
It was on January 3 of this year that I posted the following on "Cinque's" original thread, "TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady?" --
"Looks we got another one, friends. General Field Marshal Cinque Mtume lives!"
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?9414-TSBD-Doorway-man-Oswald-or-Lovelady/page2
"Cinque" had opened the thread earlier that same day.
Two posts later, "Cinque" was making use of the "you haven't responded to my points" lie that the likes of Jim Fetzer and "Albert Doyle" tell in order to wriggle off hooks and prolong their provocations. I called him on it thusly:
ORIGINALLY POSTED BY "DR. RALPH CINQUE":
You haven't responded to the likenesses that I pointed to- and whether those likenesses occurred by chance or otherwise. And if you are going to cling to the Lovelady hypothesis, then you have to wrestle with the odds that Oswald and Lovelady both dressed so similarly that day.
RESPONSE BY CHARLES DRAGO
I have responded DIRECTLY and REPEATEDLY to your "argument." As for my position on the Lovelady/Oswald/Altgens 6 issue -- you haven't the foggiest idea, have you? And yet the vast majority of the readers of this exchange have a very clear idea of where I stand.
Best to the girl in the closet.
Twenty-two days later, Fetzer showed up on that thread to support "Cinque."
Now examine the following two posts. They were made 16 minutes apart. One was allegedly authored by "Cinque" and the other by Fetzer. I dare you to attribute authorship:
EXHIBIT A (edited for length only)
That is preposterous. Do I have to spell it out for you?
This may be the most preposterous thing you have said yet...
I have to wonder if you even looked at the collage I posted.
EXHIBIT B
Snide remarks are not arguments. When are you going to appeal to logic and
evidence? Charles lost it long ago. Why are so many of you abandoning the
quest for the truth about JFK in foolhardy, shallow, and phony ad hominems?
Take special note of the EXHIBIT A comment, "I have to wonder if you even looked at the collage I posted." It has been used, repeatedly and with mild variations, on numerous threads by "Cinque," Fetzer, and "Albert Doyle."
Four minutes later, Fetzer (author of EXHIBIT B -- at least) goes down the all-too-familiar route "Drago is an evil guru" route:
RESPONSE BY JIM FETZER
What anyone can "see with their bare eye" from reading your posts is that you haven't a clue and that, like many others here, you are no capable of evaluating evidence. "Deep Politics" is a gross misnomer. Call it The Cult of Charles Drago, who long since abandoned reason and rationality.
In short, "Cinque's" original thread (link above) stands as an invaluable inventory of the rhetorical tricks and ad hominem attacks favored by "Cinque" and Fetzer and mimicked of late by "Albert Doyle" -- who, truth be told, appeared in "his" original (to DPF) incarnation ostensibly to challenge the so-called authors of the Doorway Man snake oil being peddled here but in reality to establish deep politics bona fides in advance of future perfidy..
Almost a year has passed since "Cinque" and Fetzer materialized on DPF like brown streaks on clean sheets to launch the Doorway Man provocation. They were called IMMEDIATELY. Their "work" was demolished IMMEDIATELY.
And yet they and it continue to find safe haven in the extended JFK assassination research community.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Albert Doyle - 13-12-2012
Phil Dragoo Wrote: Although ostensibly fostering black pride, Westbrook was in truth conducting an experimental behavior modification program. Westbrook's job, claims Brussell, was to program unstable persons, drawn from California prisons, to assassinate black community leaders. His most successful client was Donald DeFreeze, chief of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA). It was West- brook who designed the SLA's logo (a seven-headed cobra), who gave DeFreeze his African name (Cinque), and who set Cinque and his gang on their Phoenix flight to cremation, care of the Los Angeles SWAT Team, the FBI, and U.S. Treasury agents.
Radical Black Panther George Jackson was shot dead by Soledad guards after a prison take-over instigated by the killing of black prisoners by guards after white supremicist prisoners had provoked a previous incident.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Seamus Coogan - 13-12-2012
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Fetzer's full response, The JFK War: The Empire Strikes Back, can be seen here.
Well you know you are getting well known when Fetzer starts publicly lying about you. Indeed, I get off lightly in Fetzer's BS by comparison to Greg and CD. :monkeypiss:Look at his hall of rejects he has cobbled together. Expect John Hankey to sign up anytime.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Magda Hassan - 13-12-2012
Can't buy this sort of publicity. Thanks Jim!
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Seamus Coogan - 13-12-2012
Magda Hassan Wrote:Can't buy this sort of publicity. Thanks Jim!What's totally hilarious is that he links his article to numerous arguments. It is as if he sincerely believes anyone reading his article would think we are the deranged ones.
When in fact it's hilarious how bad and embarrassing he is. Oh yes i agree Mags, cheers for the free publicity Professor Shithead!:loco:
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Greg Burnham - 13-12-2012
Seamus,
Reading your posts in this regard, one could easily imagine that Fetzer had offended you personally, such is the intensity of your attack against him.
But he has not.
If you are not on a mission from DiEugenio to thoroughly discredit him, then get off your high horse!
You seem to be more offended by his attacks against me than I am!
Rest assured: I can defend myself without you. But, FWIW: Thank you for your support.
DPF Bans Professor James H. Fetzer: The Rationale - Seamus Coogan - 13-12-2012
Greg Burnham Wrote:Seamus,
Reading your posts in this regard, one could easily imagine that Fetzer had offended you personally, such is the intensity of your attack against him.
But he has not.
If you are not on a mission from DiEugenio to thoroughly discredit him, then get off your high horse!
You seem to be more offended by his attacks against me than I am!
Rest assured: I can defend myself without you. But, FWIW: Thank you for your support.
Lol I don't ride horses, I like Donkeys and Shetland ponies ROFL. I know you can look after yourself, maybe it's an over reaction on my behalf because I was so unfair in our first interaction's. I feel very strongly about good people getting the raw end of the stick. I certainly hear you, just as long as you know I have your back nowadays (well most of the time chief).
Anyhow, while I am very much the office junior on the block, I really did take an interest in Fetzer some time ago before I started writing for Jim Di. If anybody is really interested in where Fetzer began his downward spiral, I suggest tracking back to his time in the 9/11 nexus. Some really bizarre stuff was going on there. I was posting on some website awhile after I did my Alex Jones piece and some guys were asking me why Fetzer was still welcomed in JFK circles. I really had no idea why, funny though around that time I predicted that he would join himself with John Hankey. Whats funnier Greg, is I recall you and I having a laugh when you said Cinque would join up with JF. And bingo look what happened.
Anyhow, I have appeared to be gloating over the demise of JF. In so doing I have been a little insensitive to people here who have been hurt by his actions and were close to him. I saw Pete Lemkins post just prior to the thread going down. I also saw CD's response, while it stung me initially it did make me reflect on how I have worded my thoughts. As much as it rankles, I have to swallow my pride and respect that many people liked his earlier JFK stuff. If I have come across as arrogant or haughty I apologize for my insensitivity. In all reality there was some okay stuff, at least initially and CTKA have utilized some of his observations. This is even after JF abused us sigh.
I posted here awhile back and I stated I actually liked Fetzer's non conspiracy stuff, I took some time a ways back to read some of his thoughts on technology and science. It was pretty well written and made one think. I also initially liked his insights into American politics on BOR, his review of Ruth Paines garage was pretty good and I found his Zap film alteration stuff interesting. Indeed being something of a conservative agnostic on the issue (I tend to be more on the Groden side generally) I still genuinely find the debates fascinating and I see no evil on the alteration side. However, the more erratic Fetzer became with the 9/11 stuff, the more I distanced myself from keeping a more open mind too that aspect of the debate. One of the reasons I support the Groden angle is one of the problems I had with JF in the alteration department, was while he coordinated a lot of the efforts. I became confused because so many alterationist's were seeing different things. One of the things you have noticed, is that Fetzer seems to swallow everything. He seemingly had little filtration. Is there any one unifying argument concerning alteration? In your opinion who has the best overall take? Hell may be I should ask you that question on a different thread.
Greg, while my personal issues with JF are not quite so obvious (I readily admit no one really cares as I am small player in all this) they are certainly there. If you check out a number of posts I suspected that the train wreck Lee Cahalan was a pal of Fetzer's for one. Some of the comments he and Cahalan made about Lisa Pease and Jim Di (all roughly at the same time) being CIA on the EF was rather personal don't you think? He would later move on to include me (though I can't really play victim, I came out of the blocks snarling lol). Now I would imagine you would take it pretty personally, were I to say the same about you and say Jack White or Fletcher Prouty? How would CD react were I to slag GME as being disinformation? What was really revealing when I came at him, was I used a fraction of the venom he had heaped on others and he went running for the mods ROFL. In hindsight, where I isolated myself in my blood lust was criticizing Fetzer 'kook' ideas. What I should have said, was that he had taken some interesting subjects worthy of discussion at least and made a pigs ear of them. Indirectly, I tarred those people in those areas with his brush.
What is really interesting is from the time of his going NATO over the RFK stuff, he effectively made a bee line for CTKA. Most of his guff in recent times has been directed at our articles. It is only until recently he has changed tack and come for the DPF. To the best of my recollections it started with CD and I on a Phil Nelson thread. It was fascinating and a little disturbing seeing it all unfold as I think many of us thought it would. While CD and I have a few rocky moments, I still really appreciate how he came into bat for us (in his own way). I can't help but think this may have been another underlying reason JF went off at him like he did. I also appreciate how despite your differences with Jim and I you saw what was happening as well. I guess the enemy of my enemy is my friend lol. In saying that I hope despite differences we can build from uniting in this shared experience. Indeed, it's fascinating that on the eve of the fiftieth one of the things unifying us all at the moment has been the ousting of Fetzer. Which is a pretty sad reality, I just hope we can be more careful noticing figures like this in the future.
I think your posts concerning guilt by association, in which you explained the awkward position you felt you were left with in the wake of Fetzer was excellent. That took some real balls, I just hope people like yourself can create some order out of the chaos he has left behind. As I have said I think people like CD and yourself need not worry about any taint. Your both bigger than Fetzer. The real challenge I see for people like yourself, who dabbled in similar areas with JF is extricating the good stuff you and others have worked on from under his shadow. That's where the 'taint' lies. Hence, I wish you the best of luck in that regard partner. In the coming weeks, months, years it'll be interesting to see what people like you and CD will shape.
Till then keep cool. I am going to ride my Donkey into the sun set.