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+--- Thread: The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? (/Thread-The-Magic-Tonsillectomy-or-Armstrong-s-Voodoo-Science)
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Greg R Parker Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Greg R Parker Wrote:Bob, can I ask for relevance first? Thanks.
Or, you could just answer the question. Is there a problem with that?
Bob,
I would not ask a personal question of you without explaining the context to the discussion. Do you have a problem with that?
Personally, I would not hesitate to answer such a question, unless, of course, I was afraid what answering this question might reveal about my ignorance of the topic, as I am certain you are.
If you had your tonsils removed, or were acquainted with someone, preferably a 5 or 6 year old child, who had theirs removed, you would know that recovering from a tonsillectomy is a very painful experience. My sister and I had ours removed electively when I was 4 years old and I still recall the pain and discomfort and my mother's efforts to soothe and comfort us. It was a couple of days before I could swallow anything beyond cold Jell-O.
LHO would have been 5 turning 6 in 1945. If his tonsillectomy was even half as painful as mine was, I'm sure Marguerite Oswald would have heard all about his discomfort in the next few days, and her affirmation that a tonsillectomy was indeed performed on LHO was likely based on this experience.
However, you seem to have drawn the conclusion that a "tonsillectomy" was performed on LHO by means of some obscure voodoo faith healing, based upon your obviously limited knowledge of osteopathy. Would you be so good as to provide evidence to this forum of Dr. Philben, or any other osteopath, performing non-surgical tonsillectomies (or removal of any other organ, tumour, etc.) on American patients? Keep in mind that the very concept of a tonsillectomy, or any other surgical procedure, goes completely against the beliefs of osteopathy.
Bob, I don't know what you've been reading, but it hasn't been my posts - at least not very carefully.
This was part of my last response to Albert: "But then, osteopaths do not believe in drugs or operations, even if, in modern times, some incorporate those treatments."
Like I thought, your question has no relevance.
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Albert Doyle - 26-03-2014
David Josephs Wrote:So I got onto Google and lo and behold the Grove Medical Center Clinic that Dr Philben founded is still there. I spoke to the Pharmacist there just now, an older man who remembers Dr Philben as a pediatrician who would have performed surgeries like tonsilectomies quite routinely....
It strikes me that Dr Philben would not be so foolish as to list a tonsillectomy and not actually do one since infection of the tonsils was a common medical occurrence and the risk of recurring infection was great. Therefore not actually removing the tonsils would risk a high possibility of them getting worse and therefore needing subsequent removal. I imagine Dr Philben was smart enough to know that listing a tonsillectomy, yet not actually doing one, would lead to possible criminal charges and loss of license. I find Parker's gratuitous doubt very weak once you realize the greater situation and likelihoods. As David's witness attested, Philben was probably a doctor who preferred a Holistic solution but deferred to practical simple surgeries when unavoidable. This would also explain the lack of hospital records where the country doctor saved poor Marguerite hospital costs.
Looks like Armstrong is safe for now.
Greg, care to explain how you were going to eviscerate me and make me look like an ass?
Touche David. Well done.
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:So I got onto Google and lo and behold the Grove Medical Center Clinic that Dr Philben founded is still there. I spoke to the Pharmacist there just now, an older man who remembers Dr Philben as a pediatrician who would have performed surgeries like tonsilectomies quite routinely....
It strikes me that Dr Philben would not be so foolish as to list a tonsillectomy and not actually do one since infection of the tonsils was a common medical occurrence and the risk of recurring infection was great. Therefore not actually removing the tonsils would risk a high possibility of them getting worse and therefore needing subsequent removal. I imagine Dr Philben was smart enough to know that listing a tonsillectomy, yet not actually doing one, would lead to possible criminal charges and loss of license. I find Parker's gratuitous doubt very weak once you realize the greater situation and likelihoods. As David's witness attested, Philben was probably a doctor who preferred a Holistic solution but deferred to practical simple surgeries when unavoidable. This would also explain the lack of hospital records where the country doctor saved poor Marguerite hospital costs.
Looks like Armstrong is safe for now.
Greg, care to explain how you were going to eviscerate me and make me look like an ass?
Touche David. Well done.
Show me where Philben listed a tonsillectomy anywhere.
As for the evisceration, Albert, all in good time. Patience.
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - David Josephs - 26-03-2014
You mean there are no records of a tonsilectomy performed in 1945? :
hock::If I had to prove I had mine out, rather than imagined it, in 1968... you think there would be record of it which could be easily obtained? :
:And I will have to throw in one more time... Dec 9, 1964... JFK is dead, Oswald is dead... and what occured in 1945 to the accused assassin is of WHAT material importance to the FBI in their need to provide a complete and thorough investigation?
or the FBI showing up at Kudlaty's door less than 12 hours after the killing to request the Stripling JHS records of one L/H Oswald from 1954...
and to spend the next week interviewing Pfisterer's employees...
one has to laugh already at the attempts to refute the obviously absurd and criminal behaviors of the FBI...
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Bob Prudhomme - 26-03-2014
Greg R Parker Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Greg R Parker Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Or, you could just answer the question. Is there a problem with that?
Bob,
I would not ask a personal question of you without explaining the context to the discussion. Do you have a problem with that?
Personally, I would not hesitate to answer such a question, unless, of course, I was afraid what answering this question might reveal about my ignorance of the topic, as I am certain you are.
If you had your tonsils removed, or were acquainted with someone, preferably a 5 or 6 year old child, who had theirs removed, you would know that recovering from a tonsillectomy is a very painful experience. My sister and I had ours removed electively when I was 4 years old and I still recall the pain and discomfort and my mother's efforts to soothe and comfort us. It was a couple of days before I could swallow anything beyond cold Jell-O.
LHO would have been 5 turning 6 in 1945. If his tonsillectomy was even half as painful as mine was, I'm sure Marguerite Oswald would have heard all about his discomfort in the next few days, and her affirmation that a tonsillectomy was indeed performed on LHO was likely based on this experience.
However, you seem to have drawn the conclusion that a "tonsillectomy" was performed on LHO by means of some obscure voodoo faith healing, based upon your obviously limited knowledge of osteopathy. Would you be so good as to provide evidence to this forum of Dr. Philben, or any other osteopath, performing non-surgical tonsillectomies (or removal of any other organ, tumour, etc.) on American patients? Keep in mind that the very concept of a tonsillectomy, or any other surgical procedure, goes completely against the beliefs of osteopathy.
Bob, I don't know what you've been reading, but it hasn't been my posts - at least not very carefully.
This was part of my last response to Albert: "But then, osteopaths do not believe in drugs or operations, even if, in modern times, some incorporate those treatments."
Like I thought, your question has no relevance.
Such a pompous ass. Oh, and don't get upset, simply because you are unable to answer questions.
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - David Josephs - 26-03-2014
Quote: Show me where Philben listed a tonsillectomy anywhere.
Hey Albert... have you seen ANY records from Dr. Philben offered by Mr P?
And yet... on 12/3/64, SA Keutzer contacted Mary Lou Lautenslager who confirms that LEE Oswald had a "Simple Mastoidectomy" (CE2218) based on the records as Mary Lou was the Asst Medical Records Librarian at Harris Hospital...
I searched the ENTIRE Warren Commission Documents library and the only mention of Dr Philben is on that one report referencing the Insurance application and the tonsilectomy...
Given I was able to make a call and speak to a man who knew of Dr Philben, and that in 1963 Dr Philben was still IN DALLAS as a practicing pediatrician, one wonders why the FBI did not take a moment while in Dallas (y'know where the assassination took place) as they did in Ft Worth and contact the appropriate records librarian, or the Doctor himself and confirm.... as if this and the other surgery a 6 year old received had any bearing or relevence to the investigation...
and one also wonders what it is that Mr P is reviewing or referencing in his comment, which does not show any record of Dr Philben performing any procedures... if he could post the documents he uncovered with the list of procedures showing what Dr. Philben DID perform, and on whom... maybe we'd have something to talk about...
It appears, as it has from the beginning of Mr P's arrival here, that there is nothing more than his own book and opinions backing his conclusions which he states as factual and strong enough to refute the evidence confirming the existence of two separate histories of two different men.
----
I posted that I would give Mr P his regrown tonsils ... while also noting that the men with HARVEY at the time of his tonsillitis in platoon 2060, are NOT the same men who knew LEE from a different platoon... the larger, heavier LEE who did not have problems since his tonsils were removed and who attended traning schools at different times than HARVEY....
To make this about tonsils, and not about the FBI manipulated Military records is the minutia Salandria warned us about and is the only place Mr P can survive... examining close-up the stem in a leaf while the rest of us are looking at a forest.
Que Mr P .... :
tampfeet::
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014
David Josephs Wrote:So here you have it... In response to the FBI stating that Mrs Oswald's filling in of an insurance form onwhich she stated her son had a tonsilectomy on January 17, 1945, Mr. P wants us to believe that by the mid 40's, the middle of the 20th century, a licensed doctor in the state of TX would chant, light fires, and perform faith-healing ceremomies while convincing the boy's mother an actual surgery had been performed, when it hadn't.
David, It's not what I want you to believe. You can believe anything you like. But do I really need to remind you that you yourself posted information that stated that osteopaths didn't even begin to move closer to the mainstream until the middle of the century? As for fires, chanting etc... that is your fevered imagination again, or a deliberate attempt to put words in my mouth. Either way, it paints you as a person willing to go to any lengths to win a debate. Licensed? No. He was not licensed - except perhaps by his own association. Certainly not by the State. That didn't happen until the late '70s and I have explained the dire circumstances that forced that decision.
Quote: Lee's tonsillitis was treated along osteopathic lines which may have mimicked for instance, a faith healing session in which Marguerite honestly believed the tonsils had been removed.
Quote:Not "did" mimick but "may have", as Mr P has no first hand knowledge or information of said surgery... so he guesses as to what might have occurred since the good Dr. looked into alternative medical processes as many medical professionals of that time did, who were not interested in the drug-based therapies being promoted by the drug companies of the time... If one reads "The Drug Story" one finds that there were series efforts by these compies to discredit ANY non-drug based midical processes... but that's another story. Dr Philben is to be completely discredited on the word of one and only one man...
Uh humm. "May have". It's called not over-reaching with the available evidence. I suggest Armstrong might try the same approach.
As for "faith healing" - the founder of this quackery was closely aligned with faith-based "medical" practices of the day.
And here is one modern citation referring to it as "resembling" faith healing.
Moreover, even if an Osteopathic therapist could detect abnormalities in the skull, there appears to be no credible evidence linking small movements at cranial sutures to beneficial health outcomes. As a scientific principle, this is nothing more than wishful thinking and resembles faith healing more than evidence based medicine. The therapeutic claims, research protocols, treatment goals, and definitions of what constitutes solid medical evidence are as flexible as the cranial bones they purport to manipulate. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cranial-osteopathy-in-dentistry/
Quote:So I got onto Google and lo and behold the Grove Medical Center Clinic that Dr Philben founded is still there. I spoke to the Pharmacist there just now, an older man who remembers Dr Philben as a pediatrician who would have performed surgeries like tonsilectomies quite routinely....
"Would have"? Not DID! ROFLMOA! This after trying to dump on me for using "May have" instead of "did"? You are a freaking joke.
So this "doctor" "would have" routinely performed tonsillectomies in the 1940s, despised being unlicensed by the state and despite practicing a faith-based holistic form of therapy which - as I have said more than once - eschewed drugs and surgery? You're a crack up. And by the way -- he was NOT a pediatrician - he was calling himself a "Pediatric Osteopath". See, the differenx=ce is, even you could go and get into an osteopath
Quote:That Mr P must disparage a man's work and community service for which he was recognized and awarded is quite low... but then even if the surgery was perfomed, he has the fallback position that SOMETIMES (very rarely according to every medicall journal I've read) the tonsils will grow back... at least he got that part right...
Yes, I did get it right. Which is more than what any of you - or Sexy Sadie did. And once again, you only get half a mark. It is rare THESE days for them to grow back. It was not quite as rare back in the '40s where the op was on a kid under 8 years of age. That's because the tonsils are still growing up until then, and back then, there was only partial removal... ergo... where not fully developed and partially removed, they did tend to grow back.
Quote: I am more than willing to give Mr P the possiblity that they did indeed grow back... what is a bit harder to overcome is that Nelson Delgado and a few others remembers LEE in Platoon 1069 or 1070, while the man who was treated for tonsil problems was in platoon 2060.. Allen Felde, who I have referred to in the past (CE1962) was with HARVEY in platoon 2060 (among others who were never called to offer their testimony) and his FBI report contradicts the FBI timeline of when Oswald was where they say he was (CE1961)...
Quote:This is simply not about tonsilectomies.... this remains about the volume of evidence which the FBI offered to the WC detailing the location and activities of the man accused of killing JFK, and the subsequent investigations to determine the bona fides of such evidence... which, at most every turn, reveals not simle inconsistencies, but unresolveable conflicts... Add now the follow-up interviews of those who were there, with HARVEY or LEE at the time and the case for the existence of two men whose lives were forged into one for whatever purposes one can imagine - given the real possibility that Angleton, Hoover and Military Intelligence were aware of and supporting these types of anti-Communist programs in an effort to stem the post WWII tide of Communist expansion and infultration.
Mr. P will continue to try and argue the minutia as if each puzzle piece lives on an isolated island, unconnected to anything else...
Now you're sounding like DVP - who insists routinely that the evidence against Oswald can't be looked at in any other way than as a "whole". You know - like when you have tried to discuss the ordering of the weapons in isolation of all the OTHER evidence. Who'd have thought you'd start using the EXACT SAME debating technique as DVP? What an absolute shock!
Quote:After over a year of detailed study of the evidence, reading each page of H&L more than once, reading each page of the associated original source notebooks and documents, and talking it through with Mr Armstong... I think I can now say in an informed manner that the EVIDENCE reveals an attempt to cover-up the existence of these two seperate individuals... that the volume of original materials which has been replaced by copies nd/or have gone completely missing speaks just as loud as the connections themselves.
If you're insisting that the tonsils were removed by Philben, then you're accusing him of performing an operation without a proper medical license. You're also neglecting your responsibility to prove it. A 1945 insurance application is hardly sufficient.
Quote:This piece of the pie is critical to understanding the times and assassination... just as the great work of all our other most respected authors and researchers have uncovered given the time, energy and tenacity with which they approached their section of this HUGE puzzle...
There will always be detracters... god bless 'em, for as they continue to ask us to defend our work by attacking it, we so easily reveal the weaknesses and biases in theirs.
DJ
You talk the talk, but I have to tell ya, Dave ol' bean -- your walk is more of a mince...
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014
Quote:Such a pompous ass. Oh, and don't get upset, simply because you are unable to answer questions.
"Pompous ass"? Because I showed that I have been posting the same material as you in regard to osteopaths and their beliefs? You know - instead of the opposite, which you were under the false impression was the case?
And of course I can answer the question, Bob. But since it has zero relevance, why should I? I mean, we both agree that Philben is unlikely in the extreme to have performed an actual tonsillectomy, aren't we? So why does it matter whether or not I have experienced the effects of that operation?
Apologies in advance if I have your take on this all wrong, but it would be an unusual take on things if you believe he did, DESPITE knowing it was against core beliefs, on top of now knowing he was not licensed by the state to practice actual real medicine.
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - David Josephs - 26-03-2014
Will Mr P post the evidence he has on Dr Philben and what he did or didn't do, besides opinions and links to opinions?
The FBI, if they were as interested in the tonsilectomy as the mastoidectomy, were no more than 15 minutes from Dr Philben's office on Dec 9, 1963 and thereafter...
until these many years later and it's assisting to prove there were two different men using the same name, it was as insignificant then as all of the FBI's pseudo-investigation
I for one have had enough of the bully pulpit that Mr P has brought over from his unknown and hardly visited "forum" of 3 who do nothing but
:.His posting tactics are transparent as anyone who googles "cointelpro for internet forums" can easily learn.
Let the "sport" scream and stamp his feet all he wants in order to get anyone to take him seriously...
maybe he'll sell another book and double his volume, maybe he is simply to be seen for who he has become...
Either way I believe my posts stand, my understanding of the evidence stands and finally I simply cannot stand for any more of his theatrics.
The tagline at the top of each page talks of shining a light into the dark reaches of deep political structure...
The manner in which that person presents himself is all too easily seen as representative of such darkness... bu-bye Mr P... and good luck.
:
:
The Magic Tonsillectomy or Armstrong's Voodoo Science? - Greg R Parker - 26-03-2014
David Josephs Wrote:Will Mr P post the evidence he has on Dr Philben and what he did or didn't do, besides opinions and links to opinions?
The FBI, if they were as interested in the tonsilectomy as the mastoidectomy, were no more than 15 minutes from Dr Philben's office on Dec 9, 1963 and thereafter...
until these many years later and it's assisting to prove there were two different men using the same name, it was as insignificant then as all of the FBI's pseudo-investigation
I for one have had enough of the bully pulpit that Mr P has brought over from his unknown and hardly visited "forum" of 3 who do nothing but
His posting tactics are transparent as anyone who googles "cointelpro for internet forums" can easily learn.
Let the "sport" scream and stamp his feet all he wants in order to get anyone to take him seriously...
maybe he'll sell another book and double his volume, maybe he is simply to be seen for who he has become...
Either way I believe my posts stand, my understanding of the evidence stands and finally I simply cannot stand for any more of his theatrics.
The tagline at the top of each page talks of shining a light into the dark reaches of deep political structure...
The manner in which that person presents himself is all too easily seen as representative of such darkness... bu-bye Mr P... and good luck.
:
And so David stalks off from another kitchen that was getting too hot...