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+--- Thread: Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth (/Thread-Proof-that-the-FBI-and-some-researchers-play-fast-and-loose-with-the-Truth)
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Tosh Plumlee - 27-04-2009
John Martino was a friend of mine. Although I can not say he was CIA 'per se' he was associated with Cuban operations connected with the CIA's covert operations and was more inline with WAVE Station and their Military Intel branch. Their operations were more in line with Intel on what the Cubans were up to and counter Intel objectives.
Some in CIA viewed Martino as a planted informat to keep an eye on the Cuban underground that was filtering into the Miami area. They saw Martino as a militarty feild operative associated with the CIA's "off the books" operations.., known as the CAG Covert Action Group (CAG) or in other circles as (COG) Covert Operational Group. I was an associate of Martino and worked within the supply operations to anti-Castro groups at Coral Gables Florida. Two "independent groups" of which I remember were Alpha-66 and Omega -7. I was a pilot for some of those personal and their associations with the CIA and Miami Station. These were mostly Under Cover Ops for Military Intel from the Pentagon and not CIA.
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Tosh Plumlee - 27-04-2009
Background information Plumlee/Martino
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=75745&relPageId=1
Notice after the FBI had made statements about hot checks written in Houston Texas and many other states, the FBI crime Lab could not find any written by subject. (page 24-28 of above file of the FBI's 26 ITSA. Also information about John Martino's associations with Plumlee. I think this would fit into the title of this thread: also note No Charges were filed in this ITSA case. Why?
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - David Guyatt - 27-04-2009
THis is proving to be a more than interesting thread I think.
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Tosh Plumlee - 27-04-2009
You can thank Linda for that. She has went looking for the backup which I have said for years was buried in the tombs of the CIA and FBI. In the past I have been told 'Now thats and interesting story... its ashame you can't prove it.. there are no documents that support any what you say"... Well... what about now? This is just a small part of the complete story and only a small part of the conflicting FBI documentation... from before the BoP, JFK, Contra, and the Drug War.
Whats the governments motive foir this cover-up?
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Linda Minor - 28-04-2009
Tosh,
Have you ever read Richard Bartholomew's manuscript?
Here's a hit on it about John Martino:
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler1.html
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Tosh Plumlee - 28-04-2009
No. I have never read the manuscript. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I had heard of it, but never read it.
I would like to point out two matters I think important.
#1 ... in reference to John Martino. I think you will find the first mention of John Martino was found in my FBI files dating back to 1959. I think I named him as being associated with some of our operations being conducted out of Florida and someone I was associated with in Cuban matters of the time. This was told to the FBI and CIA more than once over a span of a few years.
This was long before Watergate and long before his name surfaced in any investigations before or after JFK, JM WAVE, or Miami Station..., something most researchers have failed to acknowledge or admit....
How did I know of this person in the late fifties and tied him into our covert Cuban operations being conducted in Florida before JMWAVE and after, unless I was telling the truth?
Again, before JFK was assassinated I told the FBI about John Martino and his associations with John Roselli... later documentation by the FBI field reports confirmed this...How did I know of these two people before JFK. Also the record shows that I told the FBI that I flew Roselli and Martino to Galveston Texas after I rented a aircraft in Houston for the trip. This was in the Spring of 1963.
Why did the FBI in those reports say I past bad checks in Houston Texas, El Paso Texas, California, Denver, and Dallas, as well as Jacksonville Florida, when in other documents state they say that the FBI crime lab could not find any checks written by me..., or any handwriting that could be ID'ed as mine. One other point: the names of the people who it was said by the FBI that they had told the FBI they had bad checks written to them by me, did not even exist or in some cases the companies did not exist... the names of the people and the companies were proved phony.
In Denver a fifty dollar check was never produced in a court of law. However, I was extradited from Florida to Colorado and the expense to the State of Colorado to stand trial on that check. I was found guilty and I served a term in the Colorado State Reformatory on that none existence check. I was released from custody a few weeks after the Warren Commission had completed their hearings. Again, the record shows the FBI was playing Fast and Loose with the truth...(the name of this thread)... WHY?
John Martino's name as well as John Roselli was mentioned to the Denver SAC Scott Warner, while I was in 'Lock Down" in the reformatory in Jan. of 1964. ("Lock Down?"..., not aloud to be in circulation with other inmates,
#2 The Nash Rambler. I have posted pictures of this car on the EF and sent pictures to various researchers showing the stickers
concerning Mexico, and other matters, along with the history of how I came in contact with the person who had this car in storage for a number of years. We moved it to my daughters farm for safe keeping. She was verbally attacked and her and her husband were threaten many times about having this car on their property. Perhaps some on this forum can fill in the blanks and care to answerer some of the questions on this matter. I asked for help on this matter from other EF members after posting the history and various details. I was attacked by some on that forum and told it was not the car and I was being less than truthful.
One example: A person said that that Rambler had been shot up at a Central America border crossing and they had to replace the radiator and generator, before coming back to the United States... well the radiator and grill was the original radiator and grill, with all the hoses as well as the original generator.., as documented by Texas researcher Jay Harrison. I was called a "Liar". Even with documentation and proof, the forum administrators would not correct the matter and when I used the word axx holes... I was warned I would not be allowed to continue posting on that forum unless I quiet using foul language ... However, my daughter was called a' Whore" and a Liar, by another researcher, but that was OK and the forum administrators said nothing. Its in the record, but that means nothing here and I'm sorry I brought it up. But I feel it supports my feelings that some researchers, as well as the FBI are allowed "to play fast and loose with the truth".
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Linda Minor - 29-04-2009
Tosh Plumlee Wrote:No. I have never read the manuscript. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I had heard of it, but never read it....
#2 The Nash Rambler. I have posted pictures of this car on the EF and sent pictures to various researchers showing the stickers concerning Mexico, and other matters, along with the history of how I came in contact with the person who had this car in storage for a number of years. We moved it to my daughter's farm for safe keeping. She was verbally attacked and her and her husband were threatened many times about having this car on their property. Perhaps some on this forum can fill in the blanks and care to answerer some of the questions on this matter.
Tosh,
I think you mentioned elsewhere about someone named Cecil Fernandez in connection with the Rambler. I can't find anything about him. Both Bartholomew and Peter Dale Scott seem to have connected a man named Jesus Fernandez Hernandez to a safehouse called Hernando's Hideaway. Is this the same man? What else do you know about the car?
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Tosh Plumlee - 29-04-2009
Fernandez, used to room with some other Cubans from Miami at the Harlandale house in Oak Cliff... sometime in the Spring of 1963 he moved to an Apartment house not far from Sunset High School (I think, but not sure that is where the name Hernandos Hideaway came into play) Some of the people who hung out there were associated with Miami and Alpha-66.
I am not aware of any other names he may of used other than Cecil. He was a friend of Johny Farentello and Antonio Venciana (?spelling) I did know a "Jesus" but not a last name. Fernandez used to drive a Rambler sometimes but it was not his car. The Rambler (if its the same one) was parked sometimes at Harlendale.
Jay Harrison, a Texas Researcher knew more about the Rambler than perhaps than anyone alive. When he died he took most of his knowledge with him. It looks like most of his research has been lost. (but that's another story) I only know what Jay told me about the background of the Rambler; and what Cecil told me about the trip to Mexico and brings some guns back. I help Jay move the car from where he had it stored for many years, to my daughter's farm south of Austin. There is another Forum member who has perhaps more background on this. Perhaps she would like to add to this.
Another set of Cubans used the Apartment house behind the Beckley Street address as a transit place for overnight stays before going to other places (California as well as Florida) This was before Oswald moved into the Apartment in front of the Apartment house in back next to the Alley (a picture of this Apartment House was posted a few months ago)
I posted much of this on the EF and sent background information to a few researchers and received no respond... however, some years later I read a few reports in a book or two with others "inside twist" as to the events and background of the Rambler. It pissed me off. One said there was 'No Apartment behind the Beckley Street house". And the Rambler I spoke of was a fabrication.
Then it gets to be a "Who said", "whos a liar", "I found it first", type ego BS and I said to hell with it....
Linda, I do appreciate what all you have done and are doing. However, I am not interested in JFK and the 'whose; and 'whats' and the 'he did its'... from my POV their all BS ;and again IMO, most are full of themselves and could care less about getting to the bottom of who and why JFK was assassinated.
Its all about them and what they think really happened. They have have convinced themselves what they think its true and all hell on earth will not change their view. As I have said... anything I have had to say on that subject has been said by me long ago.., AND I will not get "Sucked' into that can of worms again.....
IMO..., Most so called JFK researchers have set themselves up as the Experts and the "know it alls" and refuse to really investigate old material as well as new material... If the new material proves true... then they would have to "Undo" all their thinking and recant all they have written over the years and admit they got it all wrong... and we know their egos will not let that happen. So please forgive me if I shy away from JFK and, as I have said; "I want nothing to do with that can of worms".
If you notice I do not post on the JFK threads anymore. This thread is about document tampering by the FBI and some researchers and covers before JFK, after JFK, into the Contra, and the War on Drugs. The scope is government cover ups on many levels and a perhaps a feeble attempt to point this out by using myself and those old documents to make my point about those matters and not the Kennedy assassination.
As some have told me, "I owe it to the people.., so I should tell it"... well again from my POV 'been there done that' And I found out who really cares? That's whats been prove to me.
Again Linda, this is not meant to offend you... you I believe are an exception, a rare breed in the real world of true research.
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Linda Minor - 29-04-2009
Tosh Plumlee Wrote:Jay Harrison, a Texas Researcher knew more about the Rambler than perhaps than anyone alive. When he died he took most of his knowledge with him. It looks like most of his research has been lost. (but that's another story) I only know what Jay told me about the background of the Rambler; and what Cecil told me about the trip to Mexico and brings some guns back. I help Jay move the car from where he had it stored for many years, to my daughter's farm south of Austin. There is another Forum member who has perhaps more background on this. Perhaps she would like to add to this.
Another set of Cubans used the Apartment house behind the Beckley Street address as a transit place for overnight stays before going to other places (California as well as Florida) This was before Oswald moved into the Apartment in front of the Apartment house in back next to the Alley (a picture of this Apartment House was posted a few months ago)
Most of Jay's research was given to Walt Brown. The Rambler was not part of Walt's inheritance, as I understand it. Its importance was documented by the research performed by Richard Bartholomew who told me he did most of his work before he met Jay Harrison.
I myself never met Jay, but have run into several people who did know him. All of us have different interests, but all those interests coincide, merge, at one point--Jay Harrison. Several of them have recently expressed interest in what Walt Brown is doing with the information given him by Jay. It is my opinion that all Jay had was raw research, meaningless to anyone who does not know how to interpret it through his eyes. My opinion is that Jay was still researching when he died, not having come to any definite conclusions about what happened.
My interest is in the big historical picture. I want to understand how ALL the pieces of the puzzle fit together. It would be helpful if researchers could work together to discover that truth. Tosh Plumlee, who was intricately involved with a network that seems to have included Oswald, has been trying to find out more about the Army intelligence unit that gave him orders. From various research we also know that Air Force Intelligence was also acting as a back channel, feeding information to LBJ through Howard Burris. This seems to indicate that much of what Tosh has been saying--that it was not CIA but military intel who planned the assassination--is true.
It would be nice if other researchers, whether previously involved in this research or not, would join Tosh in finding out as much as possible about the unit he was part of.
Proof that the FBI and some researchers play fast and loose with the Truth - Linda Minor - 01-05-2009
Tosh Plumlee Wrote:Fernandez, used to room with some other Cubans from Miami at the Harlandale house in Oak Cliff... sometime in the Spring of 1963 he moved to an Apartment house not far from Sunset High School (I think, but not sure that is where the name Hernandos Hideaway came into play) Some of the people who hung out there were associated with Miami and Alpha-66.
I am not aware of any other names he may of used other than Cecil. He was a friend of Johny Farentello and Antonio Venciana (?spelling) I did know a "Jesus" but not a last name. Fernandez used to drive a Rambler sometimes but it was not his car. The Rambler (if its the same one) was parked sometimes at Harlendale.
Garrison's interview in Playboy, which begins at http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=103864&relPageId=185
GARRISON, JAMES - OS/SAG FILES FOR HSCA STAFF
at http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do
mentions ...house at 3128 Harlandale
where Cubans with Apha 66 lived
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=388883
photo of house at 3126 Harlandale in article by Mark Bridger in Dealey Plaza Echo, which begins here:
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=16243&relPageId=24
See also
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t2319.html
Gibson Vendettuoli
Nov 28 2004, 06:26 PM
There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.
It seems it's already been confirmed separately of Mr. Plumlee's statement. Many have mentioned the house at 3126 Harlandale Avenue as a safe house where Oswald was seen with Cubans. Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels told Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers about the house, mentioning #3128, which Walthers put in his section of the Dallas Sheriff's Supplemental Report.
Two men came forward around the time of the making of the film "JFK" who claimed to know Oswald in Dallas and in New Orleans. They told researchers independently that the safe house was directly behind Oswald's rooming house. Researcher Gus Russo called the landlady (Oswald's landlady's daughter) to ask who lived in the back house (presumably in 1963). Her (paraphrased) answer: "Latins or Cubans."
Mr. Plumlee, I'm not sure about the rest, but you're right on the money about the safe house and that's brought your account up a step on the credibility scale in my eye.
Nov 28 2004, 06:26 PM
There is one thing in Mr. Plumlee's statement that I've been able to confirm. I checked around looking for info on the Alpha 66 safe house behind Oswald's that he mentioned.
It seems it's already been confirmed separately of Mr. Plumlee's statement. Many have mentioned the house at 3126 Harlandale Avenue as a safe house where Oswald was seen with Cubans. Secret Service man Forrest Sorrels told Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers about the house, mentioning #3128, which Walthers put in his section of the Dallas Sheriff's Supplemental Report.
Two men came forward around the time of the making of the film "JFK" who claimed to know Oswald in Dallas and in New Orleans. They told researchers independently that the safe house was directly behind Oswald's rooming house. Researcher Gus Russo called the landlady (Oswald's landlady's daughter) to ask who lived in the back house (presumably in 1963). Her (paraphrased) answer: "Latins or Cubans."
Mr. Plumlee, I'm not sure about the rest, but you're right on the money about the safe house and that's brought your account up a step on the credibility scale in my eye.
http://books.google.com/books?id=65-lYkw6-isC&pg=PA329&lpg=PA329&dq=3126+harlandale,+dallas+tx&source=bl&ots=MPsVHL_Jpu&sig=ahYSVRUmurG9XL372OK007w0pr4&hl=en&ei=ClH6SZCLOqS0NYCcscAE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
The Radical Right and the Murder of John F. Kennedy
By Harrison E. Livingstone p. 329
...house rented by Jorge Salazar
Search results for 'harlandale'
Page 41
There was a house in Dallas at 3126 Harlandale that was rented by anti-Castro Cubans, some of whom were veterans of the Bay of Pigs invasion. ...
Page 42
67 The Dallas policeman who was assigned to patrol the Harlandale area was Tippit's close friend Billy Anglin.68 Amelia Diaz, who moved in close to the ...
Page 43
Some of the men who lived at the house on Harlandale were connected to some of the men who a few years later were captured breaking into Democratic ...
Page 117
The Ku Klux Klan, the John Birch Society, the Minutemen and other groups threw fuel on the fire. A house at 3126 Harlandale Street in Dallas occupied by ...
Page 118
In fact, Robert Morrow maintains that the house on Harlandale was the headquarters in Dallas for the assassination. That doesn't make it so, of course, ...
Page 134
... house on Harlandale, where an alleged look-alike for Lee Harvey Oswald, Thomas Masen, or Oswald himself, was known to frequent. ...
Page 137
These men were joined together at the house on Harlandale and undoubtedly directed in their work by Spanish-speaking Malcolm Wallace, the brilliant ...
Page 138
It was this crowd that moved into the house on Harlandale in East Oak Cliff. Masferrer would have been the most likely commander of the Cubans in the ...
Page 325
... Tippit's job with Avila.12 Tippit had a close friend, officer Billy Anglin, and both had adjoining patrol areas which included Harlandale — the street ...
Page 329
There is reason to believe that Oswald had been to the house at 3126 Harlandale, as well. A group of Mexican-Americans were involved with the Cubans and ...
Page 330
Sorry, this page's content is restricted.
Page 341
Cody was tight with Billy Anglin, whose regular patrol district included the Harlandale address in East Oak Cliff where the violent anti-Castro Cubans lived ...
Page 347
Sorry, this page's content is restricted.
By Harrison E. Livingstone p. 329
...house rented by Jorge Salazar
Search results for 'harlandale'
Page 41
There was a house in Dallas at 3126 Harlandale that was rented by anti-Castro Cubans, some of whom were veterans of the Bay of Pigs invasion. ...
Page 42
67 The Dallas policeman who was assigned to patrol the Harlandale area was Tippit's close friend Billy Anglin.68 Amelia Diaz, who moved in close to the ...
Page 43
Some of the men who lived at the house on Harlandale were connected to some of the men who a few years later were captured breaking into Democratic ...
Page 117
The Ku Klux Klan, the John Birch Society, the Minutemen and other groups threw fuel on the fire. A house at 3126 Harlandale Street in Dallas occupied by ...
Page 118
In fact, Robert Morrow maintains that the house on Harlandale was the headquarters in Dallas for the assassination. That doesn't make it so, of course, ...
Page 134
... house on Harlandale, where an alleged look-alike for Lee Harvey Oswald, Thomas Masen, or Oswald himself, was known to frequent. ...
Page 137
These men were joined together at the house on Harlandale and undoubtedly directed in their work by Spanish-speaking Malcolm Wallace, the brilliant ...
Page 138
It was this crowd that moved into the house on Harlandale in East Oak Cliff. Masferrer would have been the most likely commander of the Cubans in the ...
Page 325
... Tippit's job with Avila.12 Tippit had a close friend, officer Billy Anglin, and both had adjoining patrol areas which included Harlandale — the street ...
Page 329
There is reason to believe that Oswald had been to the house at 3126 Harlandale, as well. A group of Mexican-Americans were involved with the Cubans and ...
Page 330
Sorry, this page's content is restricted.
Page 341
Cody was tight with Billy Anglin, whose regular patrol district included the Harlandale address in East Oak Cliff where the violent anti-Castro Cubans lived ...
Page 347
Sorry, this page's content is restricted.