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Oswald in Minsk - Peter Lemkin - 16-06-2013
I'm likely the only person here to have been in a regular exchange of emails with Titovets. I don't believe he or his book is 'disinformation'. He is and was not at the time naive. He suspected [as did many Soviets that met Lee] that he was more likely than not a spy-like person, if not a spy. Oswald knew Russian before he got there, but pretended not to speak it..but there are many instances of him answering correctly questions posed to him in Russian, very early on. In a very similar manner, Marina was 'tasked' with being companion to both Walker and then Oswald. She had been trained in English before this, but pretended not to speak it; but again there are many instances [one Adele Edisen relates when she spoke to Marina before the events of Dallas] of Marina understanding English just fine, but responding in Russian. The 'translators' provided for Marina after the murder of JFK were to make sure that she said what was wanted to be said - not because she couldn't speak English on her own [perhaps not with perfect fluency, but fine]. I agree that Marina was likely a sleeper - mission unknown, and could have been only to keep an eye on Oswald - but could have been asked to do more, as needed. Yes, when Dallas happened, which neither could have predicted [as LHO was but a patsy, and Marina almost surely was not privy to that prior], she was 'cut loose', very vulnerable, and said [or was 'translated to say' many things she has now retracted, reversed or regretted. There is still much she could say, but she seems not to want trouble for herself or her daughters. They were both patsies in different ways....and both very low level intelligence operatives at the 'best' of times. Titovets has emailed me searching for information [and he knows my views on 'things'] on LHO's personality and past - which I've tried to supply or point to. He will be doing a presentation this year in Dallas on who the Lee he knew was and what he believes was his psychological make-up. ET and I don't see eye to eye on everything related to LHO, but I find him open to all possibilities and seeking the truth. The best thing the book does is give us a view of Lee the person - not the spy and not the picture painted of him by persons with an agenda - just how he was on a day to day basis, with a friend and at some parties and workplace situations, etc. [Even false-defectors have a personality that is their own and not a stage act]
Oswald in Minsk - Tracy Riddle - 19-06-2013
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Tracy Riddle Wrote:Marina's fluency in English is obvious from this January 1964 interview, at a time when she supposedly needed translators during questioning by authorities.
I suspect Marina was a "honey trap" assigned to Oswald so she could eventually go to the US with him and become a Soviet sleeper agent. She probably never did anything for the Soviets before the assassination, and they quickly cut her loose after 11/22/63, which is why she had to become so cooperative with US authorities.
Tracy - excellent.
Speaking as someone whose father was Polish, I would add that Marina's accent suggests she did not learn her English from Americans. Her accent would be described by Brits as "east European", meaning she speaks English with an eastern European twang.
I have many relatives and frends who either learnt English in America or from Americans, and that American dimension is evident in their accent. However, most of my Polish friends and relatives learnt English either in Poland or from Anglo-Poles. Their accent is like Marina's.
In short, Marina's speaking voice suggests a European origin for her fluency in English.
Assuming there is no jiggery pokery with the editing, Marina also displays a very good grasp of meaning. She understands the questions even though they are being asked in a language which is not her mother tongue
Jan, when you listen to recordings of LHO's voice in Dallas and New Orleans, do you hear a faint, distant trace of an Eastern European accent? I certainly don't hear a Southern accent.
Oswald in Minsk - Jan Klimkowski - 19-06-2013
Tracy Riddle Wrote:Jan, when you listen to recordings of LHO's voice in Dallas and New Orleans, do you hear a faint, distant trace of an Eastern European accent? I certainly don't hear a Southern accent.
Tracy - I am not any sort of linguistic or speech therapy expert.
So, as an amateur, when I listen to the clip below, the only intonation that sounds a little odd to me is about 15-16 seconds in, as LHO pronounces "I know nothing...."
Obviously, Oswald would have been hugely stressed at this time.
Btw, out of curiosity, would it be normal in 1960s America for a suspect arrested on suspicion of murder to be allowed to give an interview answering questions directly from reporters?
Oswald in Minsk - Albert Rossi - 20-06-2013
I am not versed in American dialectology and thus would not pronounce (pardon the pun) on his accent. One thing which always jumped out at me from this clip, however, is his use of the metathetical form of "ask": "aksed me that question".
There is some dispute over whether in English this is idiolectal (i.e., some individuals have problems with that cluster), or dialectal, but with reference to the latter possibility it has been noted that it is a common accepted usage in some cockney, West Indian and African American English. It may be a remnant of an Old English form of the verb, "acsian" (or "ahsian"), alternate form of "ascian".
I don't know whether this can suggest anything about where the speaker actually learned English, though I would not think offhand it supports (by itself, at least) an Eastern European origin.
Oswald in Minsk - Tracy Riddle - 20-06-2013
Albert - Yes, when Oswald says "axed" it's about the only time he sounds like a Southerner with little education.
Jan - No, it certainly wasn't normal procedure, but it wasn't a normal murder case either. The DPD claimed they were concerned that people thought Oswald was being beaten during interrogations, so they were trying to show him to the reporters as much as possible.
Oswald in Minsk - Phil Dragoo - 20-06-2013
Listened to it seven times at :35 and on: Lee says, "asked," not the shtreet "axed"
Like the jackass who jumps in, "asked you what!" and so forth
It's Elton John's Texas Love Song
Oswald in Minsk - Lauren Johnson - 20-06-2013
Phil Dragoo Wrote:Listened to it seven times at :35 and on: Lee says, "asked," not the shtreet "axed"
Like the jackass who jumps in, "asked you what!" and so forth
It's Elton John's Texas Love Song
I heard "asked" as well. Background noise confuses. But I heard an "s" before the "k".
Oswald in Minsk - Albert Rossi - 20-06-2013
It certainly is possible that my ears are tricking me. But I just listened to it about 10 ten times with my headphones on, and I still hear the metathesis. I have always heard it that way.
But I wouldn't make a big point of this in any case.
Oswald in Minsk - Magda Hassan - 20-06-2013
Despite the fact that he must have been under great stress during this time he is pretty calm and composed in front of the cameras. I know he had some previous media exposure and may have been trained for all I know but all the same he is a very cool cat. I dont' detect any East European accent trace but then I am not a linguist.
Oswald in Minsk - David Lifton - 21-06-2013
Peter Lemkin Wrote:I sent a copy of Harvey and Lee to ET. He sent me the following observations on the Russian portion of the book......FWIW...so either ET or A. Zeigger is not telling the truth about LHO speaking Russian!!!!! His comments also further confuse the picture as to Marina's ability to speak English...perhaps. Very strange!
Comments on deviations from the real facts I found in the book Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong. I touched only upon Oswald's Russian period of life that is familiar to me.
Armstrong: "I wanted to be sure that I understood her answer and said, "Ana, you knew
Oswald from the time he arrived in Minsk until the day he and Marina left for the
United States. You and your parents accompanied them to the train station and took
photographs (published in the Warren Volumes). During this time he never spoke any
Russian, even up to the day he left Minsk?" Ana, once again, replied, "No-not a word.
My father always interpreted for him-he was the only one in our family who spoke
English.".. ."
"An English-speaking medical student, Erich [Ernst] Titovets, first met Oswald at the Hotel Minsk and later was a regular visitor to his apartment.
Titovets: Actually, I met Oswald not at the Hotel Minsk but at the Ziggers apartments. It was in the presence of the whole family: Alexander Ziggers, his wife Signora Anna and his two daughters, Anita and Eleanora. Oswald spoke Russian and there was absolutely no need to interpret for him.
Armstrong: At the factory Oswald met another person who spoke English, Pavel Golovachev, the son of a famous Soviet Air Force General. … After Pavel and Oswald began spending a lot of time together the KGB asked him to report on Oswald's activities. He dutifully informed them of his contacts with Oswald and kept them apprised of his movements.
Titovets: Pavel Golobachev did not speak English at all. Once he confided in me that he wished he did and was sorry he did not speak the language.
Armstrong: On October 18 Lee Harvey Oswald celebrated his 21st birthday. Ella Germann,
a girl from the Horizon factory who Oswald had been dating for the past two months and
spoke very good English, attended a small birthday party at his apartment.
Titovets: Ella Germann did not speak English at all.
Armstrong: "It is clear that Marina associated with Americans, spoke English with Webster, and almost certainly spoke English with Oswald." … "Marina's ability to read, write, and speak English fluently before she left Russia is indisputable".
Titovets: Marina did not speak English at all. It would have been really surprising if she would have spoken English with Oswald and completely ignored me even when the three of us were together.
Armstrong: " When Oswald and Marina met, danced, and agreed to a date the following Friday
they spoke a common language. Was it Russian or English? The HSCA asked Marina,
"At this time you were speaking in Russian together.P" She answered, "Yes. He spoke
with an accent so I assumed he was from another state. "70 Oswald came in contact with
hundreds of people in Russia, but Marina is the only person-THE ONLY PERSON who
said that Oswald spoke Russian while in Russia
Titovets: Armstrong is right about so many people who met Oswald in Minsk. There are still many living who would have willingly testified to the fact that Oswald spoke Russian to them had John Armstrong followed Norman Mailer's example of having come to Minsk and interviewed them.
In the book Oswald: Russian Episode by Ernst Titovets one can find an illustration with Oswald's longhand in Russian on an inside cover of a book where Oswald contemplates the names for his future child. Incidentally, Oswald signed his writings.
When a date-line does not fit Armstrong's logic he dismisses it as an error and suggests his "correct" one.
To give an example:
Armstrong: "NOTE: We will soon see the date of March 17 is in error . [It is the night at the Trade Union Palace when Oswald first met Marina Prussakova. E.T.].
Titovets: The date of March 17 is correct.
-----------------------
Before I sent ET my own questions regarding the above, if anyone else has any for me to pass along, speak now....
Peter:
I just came over this thread--and this post of yours--quite by accident while I was doing some surfing on the Web. (Today is 6/21/13).
FYI: I first met Ernst Titovets (by phone) in 1992 when Peter Wronski had returned from his 2nd or 3rd Russian visit, and (in August, 1992) we spent several days in Los Angeles reviewing what Wronski had done on his multiple trips to Russia, and particularly, his filmed interviews with Oswald's various acquaintance. It was a wonderful experience. Like going into a room, and meeting all of Oswald's friends, who had shown up for a social gathering. In 1991, even before the attempted coup (Aug., 1991) Peter Wronski was in the USSR, pursuing his project of locating and interviewing all of Oswald's acquaintances. Wronski did a yeoman's job, and a great service to history, and I interviewed him in detail about his personal history, and his entire trip. But now back to Titovets: he was Oswald's best friend. Once or twice, I spoke with Ernst on the phone (with Wronski on the line) and I have occasionally had email with him over the years. As you probably know, I'm mentioned in his book.
I really admire Ernst's book and have told him so--a number of times. He has created a unique and valuable record of Lee Oswald, as he knew him, from around September 24, 1960 until the last time he saw him, in late May, 1962; and it deserves a good American publisher. I wish I could make it happen. If I could, I would.
About Oswald's linguistic capabilities and Armstrong's various claims about Oswald not speaking Russian. Essentially, that is absurd.
I'm not talking here about whether Oswald --on a scale of 1 to 10--was a 5, or an 8, or a 10. That's not the issue. I'm talking about Armstrong's claims that he didn't speak Russian at all (!).
I could never understand a lot of Armstrong's claims--vis a vis the Oswald chronology, and his constant positing of multiple Oswalds--but now I see that his claims about Oswald not speaking Russian are invalid as well. Let me repeat that: invalid as well. I'm sorry to see this, but its not surprising. Anyone who can stretch the facts (and the chronology) as Armstrong does, and posit the things he has posited, based on a complete misinterpretation of basic evidence, reveals an almost innate inability to deal with data properly. Everytime he comes across the slightest contradiction, he invokes multiple Oswalds (multiple Marguerite's, etc etc).
When it comes to the matter of whether Oswald could speak Russian, and how well, etc.--you can rely on Ernst Titovets. He was there, and he was Oswald's best friend. From what I'm reading in what you have posted, Ernst Titovets has basically invalidated important chunks of Armstrong's thesis.
And that, frankly, does not surprise me, but it is sad, in a way. Because I know how much time and effort John has put into assembling his book.
FYI: I had considerable contact with Armstrong--by phone and fax--back in mid-1995, and he could not be swayed from his beliefs. I think many of them are flat out wrong.
Anyway, I'm mainly writing this post to say "thank you" for posing the questions you did to Titovets, and for posting his frank responses.
He must really be scratching his head and wondering how in the world anyone came up with these ideas, which completely contradicted his own extensive experiences with Lee Oswald.
DSL
6/21/13, 2:20 PM PDT
Los Angeles, California