Lauren Johnson Wrote:

Quote:Can you direct me to the book and page number on which such a statement was made? I just checked the Secret
Team, just in case I had missed it, but couldn't find anything like that there.

Perhaps you are taking a bit of creative license?

Creative license? Just a big load of false memory syndrome. I've listened to Fletch's audio interviews, and I probably combined that with other things. But I do suspect there is some kind of trans-national cooperation going on. But St. Prouty did not say that. I stand corrected. Again.

Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:First, assuming that Nagell was supposed to get wind of the plot as part of the plot is correct.
I would argue that this could have happened only as a counter intelligence strategy to:
a. To connect Oswald to a fake assassination threat against Kennedy (something different from the plot to kill JFK) in order to blame FPCC by assossiation with Oswald for the possible murder of the US President on orders from USSR and Cuba.
b. To force out KGB and Cuban agents to make themselves known
c. To create confusion and a false sense of reality so the Soviets and Cubans would think
that Oswald was a Pro Castro Communist trying to get JFK instead of Castro. That was Harvey
who was Lee's cover to hide the plan of assassinating Castro, a cover. If somebody got word that an Oswald was involved in a plot to kill Castro, they would have dismissed the idea since their agents would have reported that Oswald was aiming at JFK instead.
Nagell knew of plan that would occur near Washington, not Dallas and to me this indicate that it was an anti-FPCC operation to prove how dangerous they were to National Security.
The question is what would have happened if Nagell had actually killed Oswald, then the plot to assassinate JFK would have lost its patsy.

David Josephs Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

David Josephs Wrote:Any and all information coming from East of Warsaw is suspect.
THEY taught US about the manchurian candidate/patsy... peeking into Oswald's brain should have revealed "Wiring MADE in the USSR"

David - please expand.

Are you suggesting Manchurian origin with a fine White Russian gloss?

Precisely... the USSR had been working with these tactics and techniques for years... which resulted in the development of fighting "fire with fire" techniques by the CIA

David - I respectfully disagree, based on more than two decades of researching the "mind control" programmes and personally interviewing dozens of the victims.

In the MK-ULTRA Iceberg thread, I wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:In his documentary, "You Have Used Me as a Fish Long Enough", gifted film-maker Adam Curtis argues that mind control programmes such as MK-ULTRA ultimately proved unsuccessful.

As a result, Curtis' film argues, the military-industrial complex abandoned its dream of directly controlling the individual mind. Instead, it turned to ever more sophisticated forms of mass propaganda - such as the manipulation of the historical record and the shaping of contemporary reality as presented through network television news & current affairs.

Curtis' argument probably represents the consensus amongst those few academic historians who are interested in MK-ULTRA and its legacy. I believe that consensus to be wrong.

Many years of researching Bluebird/Artichoke/MK-ULTRA and its even more hidden British counterpart, and speaking and corresponding with individuals who claim to have been guinea pigs in these programmes, have convinced me that the covert mind control techniques had three main origins:

i) the medical and psychological research on soldiers with "shellshock" dating back to the Crimean and American Civil War, and continuing through WW1 & WW2. Many soldiers whose psyches had been fragmented by the experience of terrible events, and were suffering from what we now term Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, effectively became experimental subjects. Whilst many of the shellshock doctors had the best of intentions, others were directly involved in the mind control programmes. For instance, perhaps the most famous of all the British shellshock doctors, William Sargant, collaborated extensively with Ewen Cameron and Sidney Gottlieb of MK-ULTRA notoriety. Sargant even betrayed CIA doctor Frank Olson to Gottlieb when Olson described his horror at witnessing terminal mind control experiments in 1953, probably either in Britain or in former IG Farben buildings in Frankfurt which were by then occupied by the CIA. Olson's son, Eric, has good evidence that his father was subsequently murdered by CIA elements;

ii) the very mechanical theories of the brain which were academically fashionable at the time of WW2, particularly Operant Conditioning, Classical Conditioning, and Behaviourism, and their gurus - IP Pavlov and BF Skinner. These very crude psychological frameworks suggested to the mind control doctors that the human brain could be programmed. These theories drove much of the research well into the 1970s when Drs Ervin and Mark, proteges of Robert G Heath (of brain electrode fame) and Louis Jolyon West (of MK-ULTRA notoriety) attempted to convert a disused missile base into a location for eradicating violent tendencies in primarily black prisoners using methods which can perhaps be best described as lobotomization of the limbic system. Ervin and Mark even suggested Lee Harvey Oswald's brain would have been ideal for their destructive techniques;

iii) the shamanic and occult techniques for creating trance and dissociated states, and for guiding or controlling the behaviour of an individual placed in such a state.

It is this third occult/shamanic element that Peter Levenda's concept of the "Manson Secret" captures (articulated in his brilliant Sinister Forces trilogy), and which Marks' concept of the "Manchurian Candidate" does not. The triggering of the dissociated state often involves the same techniques: eg hypnosis, narcotics, sensory deprivation, pain (whether self-inflicted, eg being made to stand with arms outstretched and fingers inches above a live electric wire, or inflicted by another person), trauma, fear. However, the "Manson Secret" concept makes explicit the fact that the people who best knew how to programme and control dissociated states were those with an occult or shamanic background.

These mind control programmes, which began with experiments on POWs, prisoners, enemy nationals and orphans, appear - over time - to have been increasingly contracted out. Sometimes this contracting out went to black military operations. I have testimony from several individuals of the increasingly sophisticated use of hypno-narcotic programming, and sensory deprivation/trauma experiments, occuring during the Vietnam War's Phoenix Program. Both on the individual level - programming of friendly operatives prior to a sensitive operation. And on the mass level - acts of horror designed psychologically to terrorize and traumatize the enemy. Douglas Valentine, the historian of the Phoenix Program, has described horrific events which take on an entirely different cast if viewed through the lens of MK-ULTRA.

It is my contention that the knowledge to control human behaviour existed originally in the occult and shamanic traditions. All C20th "mind control" programmes have been shown to have studied shamanism. However, it is the occult tradition that first codified these techniques in secret, written, rituals.

The notion that the American mind control programmes were born in response to those nasty commies brainwashing our boys and girls is a propaganda lie, peddled by the likes of CIA "writer" Edward Hunter. The American mind control programmes existed long before the Korean War.

The occult tradition is essentially supra-national. Thulse Gessellschaft, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templis Orientis, the Rosicrucians, Theosophy, the high levels of Freemasonry etc respect no national boundaries. Nor do the likes of Mathers, Blavatsky, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Crowley.

By the 1930s, British and American intelligence were using dissociative techniques to plant messages deep in the subconsicous of couriers, and then direct them to travel to location x. The secret message was locked behind a hypnotic trigger, and could only be retrieved by a person who knew that precise trigger. For instance, Prof Estabrooks of Colgate University, New York State, wrote of using these techniques in WW2.

As for Manchuria itself, I had long debates with John Bevilaqua, @DPF, about what may or may not have happened in Manchuria and the role of parts of the White Russian community in potentially receiving and using these "Manchurian secrets".

Atsugi had an active MK-ULTRA cell. We know from the history of the mind control programmes that whilst extreme experimentation was undertaken on captive or voiceless communities , eg soldiers, orphans, the most extreme experimentation usually took place in foreign lands.

The Bluebird cafe incident is strongly suggestive of a field test of operational programming on Oswald.

So, if Oswald was a victim of the mind control programmers, I suspect this was before his sojourn to the USSR.

Jim Root has argued that Oswald was enrolled in a deeply compartmentalised "false defector" programme. This is certainly worth considering.

Once in the USSR, it is again entirely possible that Oswald's hospital stay involved the KGB "mind control" experts testing Oswald extensively. We know they were suspicious of him from the start.

If Oswald had been programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma MK-ULTRA model, then the Soviets would have attempted to trigger dissociative states in him.

So what would have happened?

We're now in the territory explored by the likes of researcher Walter Bowart, academic Alan Scheflin and lawyer Valerie Wolf.

Whatever.

Sirhan Sirhan was clearly programmed in the narco-hypno-trauma model.

As a Manchurian Patsy. Not as a Manchurian Assassin.

The real assassins were elsewhere. The Manchurian simply had to be in the right place at the right time, to provide a guilty body for the police to arrest whilst the killers escaped.

This is what the mind control programmes delivered.

Not Manchurian Candidates. Rather Manchurian Patsies.

The distinction is critical.

Quote:"I can hypnotize a man without his knowledge or consent into committing treason against the United States," boasted Dr. George Estabrooks in the early 1940s.

Book 1994: CHAPTER 4. Operation Mind Control by Walter H. Bowart

"HYPNOSIS COMES OF AGE" by G. H. Estabrooks, PH.D.

There is not space here to detail all the techniques and methods that have received attention from the CIA and others. The basic methodology was revealed decades ago by George Estabrooks - a prominent psychologist under contract to the intelligence services - in his book Hypnotism, first published in 1943. Estabrooks candidly acknowledged that his "main interest has always been the military application of hypnosis." While 'Esty' notes that the "intelligent reader ... will sense that much more is withheld than has been told," there is nevertheless enough information given to construct a fairly accurate picture of the fundamentals of mind control.

What is needed is a subject suffering from what used to be termed Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), and what is now termed Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID). This condition can already exist within the subject or can be created by the therapist. In all cases, however, the condition is created by severe trauma - so severe in fact that the traumatic episode cannot be integrated into the experiences of the core personality.

Far and away the most common cause of MPD is early childhood abuse, usually inflicted by a parent or other adult guardian. As Dr. Frank Putnam stated in 1989: "I am struck by the quality of extreme sadism that is reported by most MPD victims. Many multiples have told me of being sexually abused by groups of people, of being forced into prostitution by family members, or of being offered as sexual enticement to their mother's boyfriends. After one has worked with a number of MPD patients, it becomes obvious that severe, sustained, and repetitive child abuse is a major element in the creation of MPD."

When the abuse is of an extreme nature, the natural human reaction is to build a wall around such experiences, so to speak, by creating a separate and distinct personality to deal with future episodes of abuse. Once the core personality is split, it is then possible to control one or more of the alters that have been created, without the conscious knowledge of the main personality. This, according to Estabrooks, creates the 'Super Spy,' willing to follow orders unquestioningly without even being aware that he is doing so.

Estabrooks only alludes to the severe trauma that is required to create a true multiple, often referring to the trauma euphemistically as a form of hypnotism. At one point, he notes that "[multiple personalities] are caused by a form of hypnotism in the first place! We will see that emotional shock produces exactly the same results as hypnotism." Later, he comes closer to the grim reality when he states: "multiple personality could be both caused and cured by hypnotism. Remember that war is a grim business. Suppose we deliberately set up that condition of multiple personality to further the ends of military intelligence."

Elsewhere, Estabrooks acknowledges that he himself had written previously that: "everyone could be thrown into the deepest state of hypnotism by the use of what termed the Russian method - no holds barred, deliberate disintegration of the personality by psychic torture ... The subject might easily be left a mental wreck but war is a grim business." Also noted is that children make especially good subjects, given that they "are notoriously easy to hypnotize." Which is to say, children are particularly vulnerable to abuse and have more of a tendency to dissociate traumatic experiences, thereby creating alter identities that can be later exploited and controlled.

Quote:Martin Orne is tied in to a man named G.H. Estabrooks who was one of probably the top ten leading experts on hypnosis in the 20th Century ... Martin Orne would probably be in the top handful ... G.H. Estabrooks was actually a Canadian by birth, he was a Rhodes Scholar, moved into Upper State New York, and basically spent his professional career in New York at a little college called Colgate College in Hamilton, New York which is not too far from Buffalo. And he published starting in 1943 and going all the way up to 1971 ... very very detailed accounts of creating Multiple Personalities during WWII for various branches of the U.S.A. military. Basically, he called these people Multiple Personalities. He talked about the Multiple Personality literature, and he referred to them as super-spies. The idea is that you create somebody artificially, using hypnosis and other mind control techniques who had no multiple personality before, but now has this second identity. And the second identity is hidden behind a memory barrier, an amnesia barrier, and there is a verbal access code that is used to call out the second identity. So, say this person is a Marine, they will be given some kind of courier assignment to take some documents to ie. Tokyo, but G.H. Estabrooks then calls out the second personality and sticks in some classified information into this second personality. Then there is a switch-back to the main identity, and the person is just going on this routine trip to take documents or technical material over to Tokyo. When he gets to the far end, he uses the example of a Col. Brown who then uses the code signal, and the example he uses in the description is, "The moon is clear." As soon as Col. Brown says "The moon is clear", the second identity pops out, gives the classified message. Col. Brown inserts a classified response, then the person pops back to their regular identity, goes back to the States and thinks they have just gone on a routine assignment. But Estabrooks again says "The moon is clear", the identity pops out, and Estabrooks gets the classified message. He describes using these people in classified courier missions for actual operations, extensively many times during WWII.

W.M. So this is in George Estabrooks's own documentation that he is describing this?

C.R. Right. And he also describes using them for infiltration operations. His idea there is to take somebody who is a loyal, patriotic Marine, and create in him a new identity, of a Communist, and you submerge the previous identity of the patriotic Marine. Now this person who is a created really diehard Communist, goes and infiltrates cells or political organizations and does whatever spy work is required. The idea is that if one of these couriers, or infiltration agents is captured and interrogated, they actually have no idea that they are spies. They generally think they are just on a regular mission, or they generally believe they are Communist, so they can't be interrogated and they can't be made to reveal information so easily. So of course they go in and do whatever infiltration operation is required, and then they come back and they are debriefed by Estabrooks who knows how to get through to the original personality. Some of these people, according to Estabrooks, were actually given dishonorable discharges as part of their cover. One question about that is ... is Estabrooks just telling tall tales? I have been able to build up a lot of documentation about him, and his personal archives are still housed at this Colgate College. I photocopied probably a pile of paper at least a foot deep.

W.M. And what did those documents reveal to you?

C.R. Well, it's all his personal papers, correspondence, background. So I have original documents now photocopies showing that he was employed by the War Department during WWII. He marketed his ideas to every branch of Military Intelligence in the U.S.A. There is tons of correspondence with him and all kinds of Navy, Army, Air Force intelligence people. He did a lot of training at Fort Holobird (?) and other locations. One of the most interesting things about him was that he corresponded pretty regularly with J. Edgar Hoover from the 1930's through to the 1960's. There is a lot of correspondence with Hoover and there were a lot of FBI personnel who came out and visited him and attended his different teachings, and a lot of these people talk about reading his book which came out in 1943, "Hypnotism". In this textbook, he describes these artificial multiple personalities in a lot of detail. I have good documentation that the CIA in Bluebird and Artichoke did pretty much the same experiments. They describe several different things. They don't describe actual operations, but they describe real-life simulations where they are testing these people. They describe the same things that Estabrooks is talking about where they hypnotize somebody, condition a second personality that can stand up to a lie detector test. Also they describe having amnesia barriers and having people go on assignments where they go to another building and rifle through some materials, take some documents and bring them back, and then have no memory of doing this whatsoever. In MKULTRA there was a contractor named Alden Sears who did experiments at the University of Minnesota and the University of Denver which were very similar and there is a lot of documentation of him procuring CIA safe houses for some of his experiments and doing demonstrations with some of these techniques for military and CIA personnel, and creating hypnotic couriers, and so on. So there are several sets of documents that back up that this was done at an experimental level by the CIA successfully. But I don't have documents about their use in operations.

Quote:Ameriican mind control research did not begin as a defensive response to Nazi or Soviet brainwashing.