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Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JIM COMMENTS ON JUDYTH'S SUSPICION SOMETHING IS NOT RIGHT Rereading pages 91-92 of HARVEY & LEE, it says Voeble knew both, namely, that Voebel not only knew HARVEY, who had the piano fall on his legs, but ALSO knew LEE. Armstrong claims HARVEY moved away in 1954 to Ft. Worth after knowing Voebel the second half of the 8th grade and the book describes him as "the small, scrawny 8th grade student in Myra's homeroom in the spring of 1954". And that Voebel meet LEE in the fall of 1954. Voebel talks about how LEE loved to fight--not to start them, but to finish them--and that he thought LEE had lost a tooth in one of the first fights he knew him to have. He was hit in the mouth by a boy named Robin Riley. The book says that his aunt, LILLIAN MURRET, "remembered this event well". She even took him to the dentist. BUT LILLIAN WAS HARVEY'S AUNT, NOT LEE'S, if I under- stand this correctly. Indeed, HE STAYED WITH HER IN NEW ORLEANS. I THINK SOMETHING VERY FISHY IS GOING ON HERE, as you suspect. Is part of the story now going to be that when HARVEY showed up in New Orleans, Lillian had trouble recognizing him? [On page 532, it says "Harvey Oswald arrived in New Orleans by bus late on Wednesday evening, 24 April"..."Two days later, on Friday, April 26, Oswald appeared at the unemployment claims office and spoke with John R. Rachal." It says he was not staying at the Murret's and that his whereabouts and activities from April 24-29 are unknown. It also says "a few days after arriving", he telephoned Lillian Murret.] Myra D is quoted as saying she "knew for sure" that HARVEY did NOT have a missing tooth and that when the body was exhumed, it had NO missing tooth. So, Armstrong claims, they knew it couldn't be LEE. [I am going to try to have these pages scanned today and posted.] [quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='188916' date='Apr 5 2010, 08:52 PM'] JUDYTH COMMENTS ON A PROBLEM WITH "HARVEY & LEE" AND THEIR MISSING TEETH NOTE: Hopefully, in the course of my posting, I have kept everything straight and Jack White will come back to explain all this away on behalf of his and John's theory of "Harvey & Lee". Otherwise, it would appear to be a problem with the history of Harvey and Lee's missing teeth. JUDYTH COMMENTS: There is something peculiar going on here..... According to Jack White's statements: 1. LEE Oswald (taller) is supposed to have stayed in New York when Marguerite brought "Harvey" (shrimp) back with her. 2. "Harvey" is enrolled at Beauregard, not Lee, where, to support this, Jack has told us that: a ) Myra D, girls' gym teacher, stated the boy was a shrimp and asked to be called "Harvey" even though his friend, b ) We have a record that Lee Oswald was a student there and had a homeroom on the 9th floor, but Myra D says no, her homeroom had Lee in it, in the basement...her word against the record c ) Armstrong asks if Oswald shrank some 6-8 inches 3. But then we are shown a photo of "LEE" (It HAS to be Lee because this is no "shrimp"-- and he has had a tooth knocked out...It's described by Ed Voebel, by the way, who therefore HAD TO KNOW BOTH HARVEY AND LEE IF MYRA D'S FILMED INTERVIEW IS TO BE BELIEVED. 4. But what? We have BOTH HARVEY AND LEE ENROLLED AT BEAUREGARD? What about the records brought up earlier about other schools, showing Oswald could not be in both at once? Now we have BOTH Oswalds in the SAME school at once? 5. Then we are shown a photo of Lee -- er -- Harvey -- 'also' with a tooth out and told it is in a different location. However, this photo on the left appears to have come from the Ferrie-Oswald camp-out photo....And when you blow that up, please correct me if I'm wrong, but where's the missing tooth? This is very strange, people. Are we to believe that BOTH of these youngsters EACH lost a permanent tooth? What about the exhumation photo that shows a rotated tooth, but no lost tooth? We need to see satements from the book, ID's about the provenance of this photo supposedly showing HARVEY with a DIFFERENT tooth out, and we have to ask ourselves why has nobody noticed that LEE and HARVEY are thereby attending the same school-Beauregard. And anyone who states that this thread is of no imporance when we are uncovering so many problems with HARVEY and LEE simply isn't reading the thread. Those, too, who say I have not answered the questions thrown my way, have simply not read the threads. This is not some game where people decide whether to 'believe' me or not. This is deadly serious, and the truth will be buried unless somebody stands up and says, "Wait a minute. The truth is more important than my feelings. The truth is more important than whether you like me or not. The truth is even more important than friendships." The truth can mean we can get the case solved instead of saing it can never be solved. Unless you bury the witnesses who speak the truth. Look closely at this post, people. HOW MANY OSWALDS ATTENDED BEAUREGARD? IS IT POSSIBLE THEY BOTH LOST A PERMANENT TOOTH? IS IT POSSIBLE THAT BOTH BOYS ARE REALLY THE SAME PERSON AND THAT SOMEBODY HAS CREATED AN ENORMOUS BOOK BASED UPON A LOT OF INTERVIEWS AND PHOTOS, BUT WITHOUT MAKING PROPER DISTINCTIONS, SUCH AS THAT BOTH BOYS COULD NOT BE A BEAUREGARD AT THE SAME TIME, BOTH COULD NOT HAVE LOST PERMANENT TEETH AT THE SAME TIME. AND IT SEEMS THAT SOMEBODY IS RETOUCHING PHOTOS HERE, BLOATING PHOTOS THERE. AND IN GENERAL, SOMEBODY HAS BEEN DUPED BY SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE. NAYSAYERS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ THIS THREAD. CALL ME NAMES LATER. BUT JUST FOR NOW, PLEASE LET US WORK TOGETHER TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS. JVB quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='188900' date='Apr 5 2010, 05:24 PM'] JUDYTH COMMENTS ON JIM'S RESPONSE TO JACK AND BARB ABOUT "THE MISSING TOOTH" NOTE: Jack writes in post #912 about the "blockbuster" post, Just what is this blockbuster post about a missing tooth? It is covered in great detail in Harvey & Lee...pages 91-92. Jim and Judyth may be surprised to learn that it was LEE who had the missing tooth...NOT HARVEY. (It was Harvey that JVB knew.) So what is the JVB blockbuster? Armstrong DOCUMENTS IT BY INTERVIEWING A CLASSMATE, Ed Voebel, who was present during the fight between LEE and Robin Riley, who punched Lee in the mouth. If the JVB version of the blockbuster differs from this, it is FALSE. Voebel told John that Riley knocked out an LHO tooth. It was on the schoolyard of Beauregard Junior High School. That's it. Jack In post #914, he posts this graphic attributed to J. Pruitt in 2002: JUDYTH COMMENTS: Believe it or not, the 'blockbuster' matter is here, because one of the persons -- 'Harvey' or "Lee' -- was supposed to have no front tooth. Yet we have no later photos showing a missing front tooth in either 'collection' so far as I am aware. IT'S A BIG DEAL THAT LEE SAVED HIS TOOTH BECAUSE THIS SHOWS NO 'TOOTH' DIFFERENCE BETWEEN 'HARVEY' AND 'LEE' AFTER ALL... The argument is that "Harvey" was returned to New Orleans. The photo at he school cannot be "Lee" as Armstrong says a puny "Harvey" is going to school here. Yet the boy in the photo with the tooth out is obviously a big boy. Here is the argument as I see it so far: 1) Armstrong says the teacher Myra D describes a small, puny boy who wants to be called "Harvey" -- but she is shaky on other memories, such as homeroom record showing "Harvey" in a different classroom for home room, describing "Exhchange Alley" and a "ballroom" instead of pool hall...She also mentions Voebel as "Harvey's" friend -- who always called Lee "Lee." So this is shaky to use as 'evidence' that "Harvey" is at Beauregard. 2) We have the photo of Lee Oswald and Dave Ferrie at camp, showing a "Harvey" who has grown a heck of a lot in a short period of time...In fact, he is at the New York height.... 3) We have the earlier photo of who is supposed to be "Harvey" showing off his lost tooth at Beauregard...But now, he is called LEE -- because he is obviously not a shrimp? Please tell me what is going on here. I do not have the book. Is Armstrong saying that "Harvey" returned from New York with Marguerite, and is described as a "shrimp" by the elderly teacher, and as wanting to be called "Harvey" but somehow in the same school we have "Lee" showing off a missing tooth? Or is this supposed to be "Harvey" showing off a missing tooth? I am curious to know, because the person in the photo is Lee H. Oswald, and he is not a shrimp. Can Jack explain what we are looking at here, better, so I can understand? Because he said LEE was left behind in New York, and LEE and HARVEY are registered at different schools...etc. Can Jack make us a timeline? For I have information about the school records that is quite different. It is based on information Lee gave about why they left New york, when they left, and when thy arrived in New Orleans. Meanwhile, this issue is important because.... LEE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN EXHUMED, MARINA WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PUT THROUGH ALL OF THIS, EXCEPT FOR EVERYONE INSISTING 'HARVEY' WAS NOT LEE, THAT (HARVEY/LEE) HAD A MISSING TOOTH AND -- WORSE -- THAT THE MUMMIFICATION PROCESS THAT HELD TOGETHER THE SKULL WOULD BE INTERPRETED TO MAKE A MORTICIAN (WHO IS NOT A DOCTOR OR A FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST) THINK THE CRANITOMY NEVER HAPPENED AND THAT THIS MUST BE SOMEBODY ELSE'S SKULL, BECAUSE IT DID NOT FALL APART. THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE PROCESS THAT I EXPLAINED IN AN EARLIER POST ABOUT PARTIAL MUMMIFICATION AND CALCIFICATION THAT SEALS UP SUTURES. I BELIEVE THESE ARE IMPORTANT ISSUES AND THAT THE INFORMATION IS IMPORTANT. PLEASE REREAD WHAT IMPLICATIONS ARE AT STAKE HERE. THE HARVEY AND LEE MATTER -- WE NEED TO FIND OUT MUCH MORE ABOUT INTERVIEWS, ETC. I AM CONCERNED THAT MYRA D WAS GUIDED TO SOME OF HER STATEMENTS, SUCH AS SAYING LEE WANTED TO BE CALLED "HARVEY", SINCE LEE'S FRIEND, ED VOEBEL, CALLED HIM "LEE". IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.... SOMEONE WISER THAN I AM CAN PERHAPS EXPLAIN WHY LEE WOULD HAVE ASKED HER TO CALL HIM 'HARVEY,' AS I KNOW LEE DISLIKED HIS MIDDLE NAME. I HAVE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT THE RECORDS AT STRIPLING AND BEAUREGARD WHICH WE HAVEN'T DISCUSSED YET. I guess my analysis of the mummification process, and how calcification of the cranial suture where the bone was sawed, and jellyfying of the scalp tissues in the partial mummification would hide the suture and also hold the top of the cranium secure with the rest of the cranium...was not absorbed the readers...The exhumation should not have taken place if people had understood how blood drained from the face changes the contours of the face drasically...the TERRIBLE job done by the mortician I shall not comment further upon...But in the end, they exhumed poor Lee... JVB Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JUDYTH EXPRESSES CONCERNS OVER JOHN ARMSTRONG'S RESEARCH METHODOLOGY NOTE: I will be posting pages 91-92 and page 532 tomorrow, which will provide a reference for pursuing the question that Judyth mentions initially and that several prior posts discuss. JUDYTH COMMENTS: Seeing that we have HARVEY and LEE at the same school, as per photos and teacher descriptions, and now even have mssing teeth for both (impossible, nearly), it is time to start a chronology showing where LEE shows up. Jack said LEE was left behind in New York and that Marguerite substituted HARVEY for LEE and brought him to New Orleans. Lee was then supposed to be registered a a different school than Harvey. But now, it turns out they are both at Beauregard. WE NEED TO CONSTRUCT TIMELINES FOR HARVEY AND LEE AND WHERE ARMSTRONG REPORTS THEM. I AM HAVING PROBLEMS WITH ARMSTRONG. HE SAYS HE FLEW TO ARGENTINA AND GOT A REPORT FROM A ZIGER SISTER THAT LEE WAS A REAL 'SHRIMP. YET PETER WRONSKI SHOWS LEE WAS NOT -- IT WAS AN OPTICAL ILLUSION -- AND THE PHOTO OF LEE FISHING -- HE IS DESCRIBED AS A SHRIMP, THOUGH HE IS ON A SLOPE.. WE HAVE THE SUSPICIOUS FILM (WHERE IS IT?) OF A TEACHER WHOSE PUPIL ASKS HER TO CALL HIM "HARVEY", EVEN THOUGH THE FRIEND MENTIONED, VOEBEL, CALLS HIM 'LEE' -- AND WE HAVE A PHOTO OF LEE THAT SHOWS HE WAS THE HEIGHT HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN -- WHICH WAS LATER USED, IN PART, TO SHOW THAT "HARVEY" WAS ALSO MISSING A TOOTH AT APPROXIMATELY THE SAME TIME AS "LEE" -- AND THEY ARE NOW BOTH AT THE SAME SCHOOL. I WAS INTERVIEWED ONLY ONCE AND VERY BRIEFLY BY ARMSTRONG, WHO SAID WHEN I REPORTED I WAS NOT PREGNANT, BUT POSED AS MARINA, HE DECIDED THAT I WAS NOT WORTH ANOTHER INTERVIEW -- EVEN THOUGH, HAD HE ASKED, I WOULD HAVE EXPLAINED THAT I POSED AS MARINA BEFORE SHE ARRIVED IN TOWN, AND AT OTHER TIMES IN THE FRENCH QUARTER, WHERE SHE NEVER WENT -- AND THAT WHEN SHE FINALLY VISITED HERE WITH RUTH PAINE, LEE DID NOT ACCOMPANY HER THERE, PROBABLY BECAUSE HE FEARED THAT SOMEONE WOULD RECOGNIZE THAT HE WAS NOT WITH 'MARINA' AND HAD A PREGNANT WIFE! SO HE REMAINED ALONE AT THE APARTMENT. ARMSTRONG CULLED ME BASED ON HIS OWN IDEA OF WHAT I SHOULD HAVE LOOKED LIKE TO POSE AS MARINA AND NEVER LOOKED AGAIN BEFORE PUBLISHING HIS BOOK. AS FOR ME, I REMEMBER NO SUCH QUESION AT ALL AND BARELY RECALL THAT HE MAY HAVE CALLED ME -- I AM NOT EVEN CERTAIN THAT HE DID. I FIND THE INTERVIEW CAPACITY OF ARMSTRONG QUESTIONABLE. THIS IS NOT PERSONAL. IT IS A SIMPLE FACT THAT WE HAVE A LEAST THREE INCIDENTS WHERE THE METHOD OF INTERVIEW LED TO RESULTS THAT ARE INCONSISTENT WITH FACTS: 1) A TEACHER WHO RECALLS A SHRIMP WHO WANTED TO BE CALLED HARVEY, WHO REALLY CANNOT PROVE OSWALD WAS ACTUALLY IN HER HOMEROOM CLASS; 2) AN INTERVIEW WITH A ZIGER SISTER HARD TO DUPLICATE, BUT WRONG HEIGHT REPORTED FOR OSWALD, AS PER PETER WRONSKI'S WORK IN THE USSR; AND, 3) AN INTERVIEW WITH ME WHERE I WAS DISMISSED FROM CONSIDERATION BECAUSE I WAS NOT PREGNANT, NO QUESTIONS ASKED TO EXPLAIN. ALL PERHAPS DONE IN GOOD FAITH, BUT ALL SOMEHOW NOT AS THEY SHOULD BE.... Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 From John Armstrong, HARVEY & LEE (2003), pages 91-92 and page 532: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 06-04-2010 Jim...you make so many errors here that I do not have time to respond to them. I have a doctor appointment in two hours. But...IT WAS LEE WHO HAD THE TOOTH KNOCKED OUT, NOT HARVEY. FERRIE KNEW HARVEY, NOT LEE. IF FERRIE KNOCKED OUT A TOOTH OF HARVEY, IT IS UNKNOWN, SINCE THE EXHUMATION PHOTOS SHOW HARVEY. JOHN DOCUMENTS THAT LEE LOST THE TOOTH IN A FIGHT AT BEAUREGARD JUNIOR HIGH. HE DID NOT "RESTORE" THE TOOTH USING MILK. JOHN HEAVILY DOCUMENTS THAT HARVEY COULD NOT DRIVE. IT WAS LEE WHO COULD DRIVE. It is very difficult to respond to false allegations, even if I had time. Jack James H. Fetzer Wrote:JIM REPLIES TO JACK AND BARB ABOUT "THE MISSING TOOTH" AND MUCH, MUCH MORE Oh please. There are many issues being discussed in this thread. I was responding to something Pamela said ... and used that as an example for her to tell us all how I "cherrypick" ... as I had posted it many many pages and posts ago, so it was already here. But, I do stand in awe ... for you actually seem unaware that the debate over the "two Oswald's" .... Harvey vs Lee, the 2 schools, etc... and yes, the tooth ... is very old news! Your "blockbuster" has been discussed and discussed over the years. How can you really not already know this stuff ... and that it has been hotly debated over the years? Funny ... I even found an exchange Doug Weldon and I had on the issue in 1999 ... when someone else mentioned putting a tooth in milk so it could be put back into the socket. Ah, but it's Judyth's "blockbuster" that is the news and importance here, you'll say! But this is not the first time Judyth has written/spoken about this ... she has on Rich's forum, on BlackOp and on the moderated group. Back as far as at least 2002. It really astounds me that you seem to think this is some new groundbreaking news on Judyth's part ... and that you are so unaware of her story over the years. Yet you chastise others as if you are teaching them! Her story was a little different then ... changed in midstream when a problem with her chronology was pointed out. First she had LHO telling her all about how Ferrie had slugged him and at least loosened the tooth after a CAP gathering at Ferrie's house (in her post here now she says LHO rode with Ferrie on a Harley to Ferrie's house after a CAP gathering) and then a week later it was knocked out by someone at school. She notes there was a famous photo showing it. The problem is that the photo was taken, and the school incident occurred, months before LHO attended CAP meetings and met Ferrie. At one point she has Ferrie telling LHO about milk, at another time she has an unnamed person at school advising him to put the tooth in milk. I did a post in 2004 that includes a chronology of it all ... something Dave Reitzes had put together of quotes and posted in 2002. Looks like most of this story was related by Judyth on the jfkResearch forum ... and Dave had those posts. It is long, so here is the link for anyone who is interested. I could post it all here, but if this works for everyone, there is no need. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...r%3Ajunkkarinen Kind of a wonder that Judyth wanted to delve back into this one, especially with the new change, though she did now say she may have mixed up some small details. :-) [/quote][/QUOTE] Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JIM ASKS A MODEST QUESTION REQUESTING CLARIFICATION Jack, You have suggested I read HARVEY & LEE, which I am doing with considerable astonishment. I am very glad you are reasserting here that it was LEE who lost his tooth. I have just posted pages 91-92 and page 532 from HARVEY & LEE. I find it of more than passing interest that it states that HARVEY moved to Ft. Worth in June 1954 and his friend, Edward Voebel, never saw him again (p. 91). That fall, LEE enrolled at the same junior high school HARVEY had been attending. Voebel knew him, too, and remembered that LEE liked to fight -- not starting them, but ending them. And that on one occasion, LEE was hit by Robin Riley. His tooth was knocked loose and he even lost it. Indeed, Lillian Murret remembered that Marguerite had to take him to the dentist and she (Lillian) paid for the bill herself (p. 92). What I find odd about this, Jack, is that Lillian was the aunt of HARVEY, not of LEE. So what is LILLIAN MURRET, with whom HARVEY will stay when he comes to New Orleans (p. 532), doing paying a dental bill for LEE? You have made much of the missing tooth and that, because the body exhumed from the grave did not have a missing tooth, it could not have been LEE. So why is HARVEY'S AUNT paying for LEE'S DENTAL BILL? Judyth, of course, has already responded about whether or not HARVEY --the man she knew in New Orleans--could drive including this reply: Lee Harvey Oswald could drive. Unless you now include the entire Murret family as knowing "Lee" as well as "Harvey", how does Mr. Armstrong explain these records: April/May 1963 - Oswald drives his uncle Murret's car. (WC Vol 2, pp. 503-504) Oswald's cousin, John Murret, let him drive his car sometime between May and July. (WC Vol 8, p. 151) Judyth Baker has also stated to researchers that Oswald could drive, and did so, with her, on three occasions. One such occasion has entered the record: The opening remarks at he Clay Shaw trial mention that occasion, saying it was not Marina Oswald with Oswald at that time, and that the prosecution wished they knew who the woman was, that she would stand forth. At that time, Judyth Baker was in bed trying to save a pregnancy, and they had no TV or newspaper access. She did not know about this appeal. Since it was LEE who had the tooth knocked out, not HARVEY, as you make very clear, why was HARVEY'S AUNT LILLIAN PAYING FOR LEE'S DENTAL BILL? And if she knew that "MARGUERITE" had taken him to the dentist, DID LILLIAN ALSO KNOW LEE'S MOTHER "MARGUERITE", TOO? If there is an answer to this question, I want to know. I want to get this straight. Not only do we have EDWARD VOELBEL knowing both HARVEY and LEE, who were enrolled at the same junior high school consecutive semesters (but not at the same time), but LEE has a tooth knocked out, of which LILLIAN, who is HARVEY'S AUNT, is aware, even knowing that "MARGUERITE", LEE'S MOTHER, had taken LEE to the dentist, for which LILLIAN PAID? Are you telling me that LILLIAN was not only HARVEY'S AUNT but also LEE'S AUNT? And that LILLIAN knew not only HARVEY'S MOTHER, who was named "MARGUERITE", but also LEE'S MOTHER, who was also named "MARGUERITE"? As Judyth has asked above, are you and Armstrong telling us that the entire MURRET FAMILY knew both HARVEY and LEE? Jim Jack White Wrote:Jim...you make so many errors here that I do not have time to respond to[/QUOTE][/QUOTE] Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JUDYTH OFFERS SOME REFLECTIONS ON PAGES FROM HARVEY & LEE: Please note that, in the posted material quoted from Armstrong's book, a distinction has to be drawn between Ed Voebel's testimony of having known "LEE" and Myra DaRouse's reports about "HARVEY", which are highly suspect: 1) At no time did Ed Voebel say that he had ever met HARVEY OSWALD. 2) Voebel only mentions LEE Harvey Oswald. 3) Voebel had an opportunity to make the distinction because MYRA DAROUSE tells us that she drove HARVEY home. Voebel could have tesified that he visited the Oswald apartment over the pool hall and that he played pool and shot darts with "Harvey." But he did not. Instead, he always used the name "Lee". Where was that apartment? On Exchange place, which Myra DaRouse called "Exchange Alley". But Voebel describes visiting LEE at his apartment above the pool hall (erroneously described as a 'ballroom' by Myra). He makes it clear that it was Lee. Are we expected to believe that LEE and HARVEY were living at the same address? Does Armstrong's belief that HARVEY attended Beauregard depend solely on the witness, Myra? Armstrong mentions, convincingly, many school records about LEE--but where are HARVEY'S records ? We have a teacher who says she drove HARVEY to LEE's apartment. I have already explained that Lee H. Oswald told me he saved his tooth in some milk. I know that his tooth was loosened in a fight with Dave Ferrie, but that it did not fall out at that time. People can haggle about the date, whether Lee's tooth was knocked out before or after the fight with Ferrie. The point is, Lee saved his tooth and told me so. The tooth is not missing in the skull of LHO because it was saved. The CAP photo, when blown up 400%, shows 'two' missing teeth...But what we are really seeing is a trick of light, because Lee's front tooth and his bicuspid stand out more than his other teeth. There are no photos of "Harvey" with a missing tooth. The photo of "Lee" with the missing tooth only shows us that it had been knocked out, not lost forever. SOME TESTIMONY MADE BY SYDNEY EDWARD VOEBEL OF CONCERN TO DETERMINING IF HE EVER KNEW 'HARVEY': There is no doubt that "LEE" lived above the pool hall at Echange Alley/Exchnage Place. Mr. Voebel. at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool. Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall. Mr. Jenner. And did you accept his invitation? Mr. Voebel. Yes; that's when we played darts. Mr. Jenner. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right? Mr. Voebel. Yes, sir. Mr. Jenner. Where was that? Mr. Voebel. On Exchange Alley. Mr. Jenner. Exchange Alley? Mr. Voebel. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it. WE CONCLUDE THAT "HARVEY" LIVED THERE, TOO, FROM MYRA DAROUSE'S OWN, PARALLEL DESCRIPTION. IF THAT IS THE CASE, EITHER MYRA'S MEMORY IS DEFICIENT CONCERNING LEE H. OSWALD'S HEIGHT, OR SHE HAS BEEN UNDULY INFLUENCED SOMEHOW TO RECOLLECT SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO BE CALLED 'HARVEY' WHO HAD HE SAME FRIEND -- VOEBEL -- AND WHO LIVED AT THE SAME ADDRESS AS 'LEE'. FURTHERMORE, ABOUT 'LEE' BEING READY TO FIGHT, BUT NOT 'HARVEY' -- ONLY A PORTION OF VOEBEL'S TESTIMONY IS SHOWN -- THAT LEE WOULD NOT BACK DOWN FROM A FIGHT. BUT FURTHER UP IN VOEBEL'S TESTIMONY WE READ: Mr. Voebel. .... He had the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the Neumeyer brothers.... WE ALSO READ: Mr. Jenner. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at Beauregard School while you were attending there? Mr. Voebel. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to fight at that school. KNOWING LEE'S COURAGE, I FIND NO TRUE BELLIGERANCE IN HIS GETTING INTO A FIGHT AT BEAUREGARD THAT WOULD DISTINGUISH A 'LEE' FROM A 'HARVEY.' CONCLUSION: MYRA DAROUSE IS NOT A CREDIBLE WITNESS. FROM HER STATEMENTS, WE CANNOT ESTABLISH THE EXISTENCE OF "HARVEY" AS SEPARATE AND APART FROM THE EXISTENCE OF "LEE". HER REPORTS ALONE APPEAR TO BE INCREDIBLE. JVB Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JUDYTH DISCUSSES THE "MISSING DAYS" OF PAGE 532 IN HARVEY & LEE NOTE: Judyth has provided further details related to Lee's arrival in New Orleans on April 25 by her account at April 24 by Armstrong's. They agree that he showed up for an unemployment office interview on April 29 with John Rachal, who, as David Lifton has explained, reported that he was nicely dressed, a matter that has been previously addressed. As Armstrong notes, his whereabouts and activities from the 24th to the 29th are "unknown". Judyth fills in some blanks. [I will check with Judyth to make sure that everything I am posting here is just as it should be.] JUDYTH COMMENTS: Late in 2001 Mary Ferrell gave me her private copy of her well-known and praised LHO chronologies after I provided information to her regarding the whereabouts and activities of Lee Oswald between April 26th and May 8th, which were largely a blank in her chronology. I had been unable to afford to buy a copy. I had no chronology of any kind before that. Here are some highlights from Researcher Mary Ferrell’s Chronology: April 23, 1963 (Tuesday) - Marina says that Oswald checks some baggage to New Orleans on his bus ticket on the day before he leaves. (WC Vol 22, p. 778; WC Vol 23, p. 526) April 24-29, 1963 (Wednesday - Monday) - Oswald's whereabouts from Wednesday afternoon until Monday are unknown except for Friday's appearance at the New Orleans office of the Louisiana Employment Commission. (WC Vol 8, p. 135) April 28, 1963 (Sunday) - Oswald visits his father's grave in New Orleans. (WC Vol 8, pp. 135-136, 165) On 11/23/63, the Murrets say that Oswald spent three to five nights at their residence. (WC Vol 23, p. 718) Mrs. Murret says that Oswald would eat no breakfast; Oswald would take the want-ads; and Oswald would be gone all day until 5:30 p.m. til 6:00 p.m. looking for a job. (WC Vol 8, p. 137) April 29, 1963 (Monday) - Oswald writes to Marina at Mrs. Paine's home in Irving. (WC Vol 16, p. 228) April/May 1963 - Oswald drives his uncle Murret's car. (WC Vol 2, pp. 503-504) Oswald's cousin, John Murret, let him drive his car sometime between May and July. (WC Vol 8, p. 151) May 3, 1963 (Friday) - Oswald writes to Marina, who is staying with Mrs. Michael Paine in Irving, that the employment office will pay him $15.00 or $20.00. He says that his uncle has offered him a $200.00 loan. (WC Vol 16, p. 230) There are conflicts to this report, since Mrs. Murret also said Lee stayed with them as early as April 22nd, with another report given as April 29th from Ferrell. However, Mrs. Murret’s statement that Lee spent only three to five nights at their residence is the most accurate. Obviously Lee would not check out of the YMCA, stay with his aunt and uncle a few days, then check back into the YMCA, then go back to his aunt and uncle’s home. He ate a Sunday dinner with them on May 5th. On May 6th or 7th he moved in with them for a few days, primarily to "prove" to his relatives that he was job hunting, thereby making the acquisition of a pre-arranged job at Wm. B. Reily Coffee Company appear to have been the result of a job-hunt. Notes for each date below: April 23, 1963 (Tuesday) - Marina says that Oswald checks some baggage to New Orleans on his bus ticket on the day before he leaves. (WC Vol 22, p. 778; WC Vol 23, p. 526) ==This is typical: Lee liked to use lockers to store things ahead of time. He had boxes, a couple of seabags and a duffle bag, etc. Thererfore, a neighbor such as Eric Rogers saw Lee leave his 4905 Magazine St. address -- reporting two bags -- but was unaware that Lee had already moved other bags from the apartment and had them eventually stored in a locker at Nuevio Laredo.== [I hope that someone can check out this lead to see if there are any records about this anywhere.] April 24-29, 1963 (Wednesday - Monday) - Oswald's whereabouts from Wednesday afternoon until Monday are unknown except for Friday's appearance at the New Orleans office of the Louisiana Employment Commission. (WC Vol 8, p. 135) FILLING IN THE MISSING DAYS -- THIS IS NOT EXHAUSTIVE-- IT OFFERS ONLY A FEW HIGHLIGHTS OF WHAT HAPPENED ON THE MISSING DAYS, AS IT TAKES A BOOK TO EXLAIN THE DETAILS TO BE CONFIDENT THAT THESE EVENTS ARE NOT MISINTERPRETED. ==JUDYTH FILLS IN SOME BLANKS ABOUT HIS ACTIVITIES BETWEEN APRIL 25 AND APRIL 29== This is the area I can fill in. Lee told me he arrived in town "the day before" -- April 25 -- early enough to visit his relatives afer checking in at the YMCA. He mentioned eating supper with somebody who would become important later -- David Ferrie. He wasted no time contacting him. APRIL 26, 1963: Met Lee H. Oswald approx. 8:30 AM at Post Office. He accompanied me to the YWCA. We spoke for approximately an hour. I did not think I would see him again. It has been suggested that he was sent to meet me. I have no problem accepting that. I was alone due to misunderstanding about the timing in coming to New Orleans and had contacted Ochsner's Clinic about my dilemma. They told me to return to FL, I told them I could not do that. Lee Oswald may have been sent to watch over me in the tough town. The fact that he went into Charity Hospital with me and interviewed with Ochsner before I did also suggests prior association with Ochsner (details in book). Where Lee Oswald was from 10:00 AM for the rest of the day includes a trip to his aunt's house (Murrets, 757 French St.) to "borrow a white shirt" (reported by me in 1999). It seems he obtained a suit, also, as per description at employment office. Lee's aunt tesified that she was concerned about his attire and closely describes Lee's activities, the most important being that Lee did not eat breakfast there after moving in with them. APRIL 27: Lee Oswald appears at Royal Castle where I am working the breakfast rush two-hour shift as a extra (to get YBWCA rent $$$ as Ochsner was not in town -- he was in South America -- and had not yet signed my application papers to work with Dr. Sherman, who may have accompanied Ochsner, as she ofen did to Latin America, due to her fluency in Spanish, the only person on Ochsner's main staff who could speak it. Lee Oswald rides back with me to town. Other events occur: we eat lunch with Dave Ferrie and he believes I am the person he requested to help him -- He accepts that they must have sent a female because he was a homosexual; oher events occur. Fascinated by Ferrie, we spend the most of the night listening to him teach and preach. APRIL 28: The Ferrell chronology reports, for people who don't think Lee Oswald could drive, that he's borrowing cars. Indeed he was, as I have also reported. (Lee would be probably the only New Orleans boy in the fifies who 'didn't know how to drive'. They rarely took learner's permits -- just hopped in and drove each other around in whoever had a jalopy. Lee said he drove that early, but had very little experience until he learned to drive a jeep in the Marines, which he learned in a few hours. April/May 1963 - "Oswald drives his uncle Murret's car. (WC Vol 2, pp. 503-504) Oswald's cousin, John Murret, let him drive his car sometime between May and July. (WC Vol 8, p. 151)" APRIL 28: Disgusted at learning Lee beat his wife, which he admits with shame, I am stuck having to stay with him because we are already far from the "Y" finding out how to find his father's grave, and I get lost very easily. He went to see his aunt, but I stayed outside because he was married. We had borrowed his cousin's car (See the note above in the Ferrell Chronology about borrowed cars.). I was just wanting to go home when he found out the location of his father's grave. He persuaded me to get up off the bench and go with him down the row, which was between lots of cluttered tombs, etc., to view it. I have described the grave site to researchers: even they had a hard time finding it, and it was as I described. I never saw the photo of his father that a cousin said the old aunt gave him, but we were hardly talking at the time. Things got better that night and we attended a party at Dave Ferrie's, but with disastrous results. I heard horrible things about JFK from Kenendy-hating Cubans who wanted him dead. APRIL 29: Lee took me to meet Guy Banister, who assured me Ferrie was legitimate, the cancer project was legitimate, etc. We spent the whole day together. By now, Lee has moved me from the "Y" into the mansion and (Guy) helped out by paying $10 of the rent after Lee (I was with him) ran money for his uncle (Dutz) from "Town and Country" (Marcello's headquarters). Dutz gave him $200 and told him to keep it. It was not a loan, as it has been described in the WC. APRIL 30-MAY 1: Among events: I extracted a promise from Lee that he would not lay a hand on his wife or I would never see him again. We had no affair but were deeply attracted to each other. My husband-to-be was failing to write very much and I was not even sure he would show up. Because I would soon have employment at Dr. Sherman's lab, with housing and stipend, I did not feel pressure to marry. I actually had had some fears about getting married because my fiance was keeping our elopement a secret. I did not get along with my parents because I had become an atheist. And my fiance was a day late arriving without telling me he would be late. He arrived May 1, the day we were supposed to get married. Lee said he was falling in love with me and begged me not to marry my fiance. But I was still upset about his treatment of his wife. I stayed on good terms with Lee because he had promised that, if I would stay his friend, he would never, ever strike Marina again. I felt it was my duty to be his friend, just to help her. That's how it started. I did not, as one researcher has said, have an affair with Oswald just prior to marrying my husband. The situation was rather more complex. Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 06-04-2010 JUDYTH OFFERS MORE OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE EVIDENCE FOR "HARVEY & LEE" NOTE: In an astute email to Judyth, Pamela observes that Armstrong begins and ends with the thesis that there were two LHO's, rather than objectively examining evidence and then allowing readers to weigh and evaluate. That is circular reasoning, and it complicates any discussion, especially something as complex as this. She is right, of course, as we are in the process of discovering. Here is more about his "evidence". JUDYTH REPLIES: JIM: Notice that Armstrong ONLY refers to the alleged "Oswalds" as "HARVEY" and "LEE", so be sure you bear that in mind in discussing his work. JUDYTH: ==yes== JIM: It is an interesting psychological ploy to induce a presumption that there ACTUALLY WERE two of them, which our new discoveries seriously undermine. JUDYTH: ==And it's the same-old, same-old that Lifton uses. Repeat something over and over and the reader, after a hundred pages, believes it. I might add, repeat ANYTHING often enough and SOMEBODY will adhere to it.== JIM: I want to nail down this "missing tooth" fiasco by Armstrong, where he has Lillian Murret paying for "MARGUERITE" to take LEE to the dentist, when she was HARVEY'S AUNT, yet according to Armstrong, HARVEY HAD ALREADY MOVED AWAY. This is a colossal blunder that undermines the integrity of his whole story. JUDYTH: ==Lillian Murret gives us a clear picture that her sister returned with the same "Lee" she -- Lillian -- had always known and also loved.== On page 123 of Vol. VIII, Lillian Murret tells us that her sister, Marguerite, came to New Orleans with Lee from New York and lived for 2 or 3 weeks with the Murrets. Mrs. Murret. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans. <snip> Mr. Jenner. What was Lee doing during that time? Mrs. Murret. He was going to school. Mr. Jenner. When they came back from New York and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school? Mrs. Murret. Yes; he did. That's when she enrolled him at Beauregard Junior High. Jenner reminded Mrs. Murret that Marguerite and Lee had at first lived elsewhere before finding the apartment at Exchange Place, and it becomes clear that the arrival of Robert from the service is linked to Lillian's memory about Exchange Alley: Robert didn't like it there and moved to Texas, which he considered his home territory. Mr. Jenner. Now, tell me about Lee Harvey Oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. Did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? He would now have been about 3 years older; isn't that right? Mrs. Murret. Yes, sir; like I said, they had just come from New York, and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she enrolled him over at Beauregard School, which wasn't too far from my home. It's a school ... pg. 124 Mrs. Murret. ....on Canal Street, and it's just a few blocks after you get off of the bus from Lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and she gave him my address for the school, and I think, or I'm quite sure, that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at the school. Lillian then describes the problems Lee H. Oswald had at school, and she mentions that he's called "Lee." she says he didn't start trouble, others did. Here we see the pasaage that Armstrong says shows the person is "Harvey" -- called a "Yankee" and sitting in the back of the bus. Within this passage (underlined) we see that Lillian gave Marguerite money to take Lee to the dentist. In her version, the tooth did not get knocked out, but this may be a separate incident: Mrs. Murret. Well, I can only tell you what I was told. I don't know anything myself that happened, but I can tell you what he told me, or what he told her of what happened. He said that they were calling him "Yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into the bus and he sat in a seat in the Negro section, which he didn't know, because he had come from New York, and he didn't know that they sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he could.' ==Armstrong makes an error at this point, saying that the "New York" "Harvey" just didn't know about the segregated buses, as "Lee" -- raised in the "south" -- would. But he's wrong. Lee had lived in Texas, prior to moving to New York, and while there were some segregation issues there, the Ft. Worth area did not have a significant "black" population, as did New Orleans, but, rather, a Hispanic population of concern. == "The bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, like I said, in the Negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end of the line. They jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of that. He didn't say anything to me about that. "Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time." "Now, at the Beauregard School at that time, they had a very low standard, and I had no children going there and never did. My children went to Jesuit High and Loyola University, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going to Beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other boys, and I guess Lee wouldn't take anything, so he got in several scrapes like that." ==We do not even have to go that far into it, folks. When LEE returns to New Orleans, he is supposed to be "Harvey." Yet his aunt always calls him "Lee." Everybody in New Orleans calls him "Lee". Nobody says, "Welcome back, Harvey, long time no see." Nobody ever, ever says, "He asked me to call him Harvey." Just one teacher said that. Upon her elderly shoulders rests the entire thesis that "Harvey" attended Beauregard. It does not suffice that she mentions Voebel as "Harvey's" friend. Do you see any record of a "Harvey" at Beauregard? I don't--show me one in Armstrong's book. The witness clearly says "Harvey" lived where "Lee" lived. So we are supposed to believe that the "two Oswalds" both attended the same junior high school and even lived at the same address? Is Armstrong's "song and dance" even remotely credible?== JVB Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 07-04-2010 JIM REPLIES TO JACK WHITE ABOUT THE JUDYTH VARY THREAD NOTE: Jack has abandoned the thread (or so he tells us) for a new "Jim/Judyth" thread, which is dedicated to presenting "errors" in the work of John Armstrong. I replied by re-posting about twenty of the most important posts which present criticisms of HARVEY & LEE, so he could forward them to John, one-by-one. Instead of doing that, Jack accused me of "hijacking" his thread and created yet another, "Jim/Judyth II", which he began with the comment to which I reply. Every serious student of this case must read DR. MARY'S MONKEY. JIM RESPONDS TO JACK: Jack, No matter what you are saying, this thread has exposed major problems in the HARVEY & LEE scenario as well as explaining quite a lot about the relationship between Judyth and Lee, who were collaborating with David Ferrie and Dr. Mary Sherman in a project to develop an anti-cancer-virus cure that became crucial when it was discovered that the polio vaccine being use to inoculate around 100,000,000 children and young adults was contaminated with the SV-40 virus, derived from the incubation of batches for study in the kidneys of Rhesus monkeys. It is a fascinating and remarkable story, which I am only now beginning to piece together. It is my belief that you are abandoning the thread because you are not able to cope with the arguments that have been posted, especially those about the "missing tooth" and the presence of "Harvey" and "Lee" at the same junior high school, the sole evidential basis for which is the report of an elderly woman who seems to be a completely incompetent witness. The idea that I "hijacked" your thread is rather ridiculous. I interpreted your invitation as one to repost the posts in which challenges to the work of John Armstrong had been presented. I therefore went through the thread to pick out those that were most relevant, which I posted there. My presumption was that you would send them to John, one at a time, for his consideration. Why you can't see your way to do that is beyond me. I believe that you are not only hostile to Judyth but have become hostile to me. For all the years of our relationship, I have never seen you act in such an obdurate and obstructionistic fashion. I have given you what you need if you choose to contact John, namely, a collection of the posts in which challenges to his work are presented. I didn't think in my wildest dreams that I had to drag it out, one by one. So do with what I presented as you will. There was no reason to reject what I have done. The reason you are not reading these posts and learning from them, of course, is that your mind has been closed on this subject since before the thread began. I realize that you are not alone in failing to begin to appreciate what Judyth is all about. Let me recommend that you could take a giant step in the right direction by reading DR. MARY'S MONKEY, in which Ed Haslam offers a fascinating exploration of the circumstances that brought Judyth, Lee, Ferrie, Sherman, and Oechner together in one of the most remarkable covert operations in American medical history. Jim P.S. Even simpler, tune in to revereradio.net this Friday from 5-7 PM/CT and listen to Jesse Ventura for the first hour and Ed Haslam the second. [quote name='Jack White' post='189065' date='Apr 7 2010, 04:36 AM'] Like the numerous others who have grown tired of this thread, I have now found it counterproductive to read and/or reply to the 10,000+-word daily treatises on the JVB stories and how accurate and marvelous the research is. I have received over a half-dozen emails from researchers saying what a waste of time the Jim/Judyth thread has become, and they refuse to read any new postings. I just this evening received two more messages of support; the people email me privately because they say they cannot have a productive exchange with Jim. I am starting this new thread which I hope will be limited to a single subject....which Jim/Judyth have suggested: "THE ERRORS OF JOHN ARMSTRONG." Both have the book Harvey & Lee. I ask that if they wish to address these "errors" that they do so in this thread, and with the following limitations: Address only "error" in one posting, thusly: Error: LHO's Missing Tooth, cite pages in H&L. Why Armstrong Is Wrong (100 words or less). or: Error: LHO Could Not Drive. Why Armstrong Is Wrong (100 words or less). Cite facts, not opinions. (Lengthy cut and paste messages will be ignored!) I will then attempt to reply to the alleged "error". This is the ONLY thread in which I will respond to any postings about JVB or H&L. (Lengthy cut and paste messages will be ignored!) This might contribute something to the investigation. (Lengthy cut and paste messages will be ignored!) Jack DO NOT POST ANYTHING TO THIS THREAD WHICH DOES NOT MEET THE ABOVE CRITERIA. IT WILL BE IGNORED.[/quote] Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 07-04-2010 Ed Haslam's interview, which will be broadcast on Friday along with Jesse Ventura's, is at http://religionandmorality.net/Podcasts/Haslam/ |