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Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 14-07-2015 To Tom Scully.... I've made an effort to reply to your question about whether SH Landesberg actually showed up at the radio station. (Answer: I think he did, but I can't answer yet your demand for FBI proof. I have offered a citation from a PhD..) Will you please, FINALLY, respond to this: The questions we keep posting about the FBI's handling of the Landesberg case do not arise because there are FBI reports that SEEM to back the official story the FBI put forward. OF COURSE THERE ARE! John refers directly to them in his article and makes them available to all at the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University. John is charging yet another FBI cover-up in this case, one of many accepted by an enormous number of JFK researchers. Here are some of John's reasons (Tom--I'm leaving out the issue of whether SH Landesberg and the talk radio host actually met in person since so far you have only responded to that question): 1. A lot of evidence appears to be missing from this case. Where is an FBI report, or any evidence at all, showing agents actually bothered to ask Al Fowler to identify L'eandes/SR Landesberg (the actor), or interview ANY of the Village Voice reporters who met L'eandes (the actor), or speak to any of the nine different people identified, with addresses for each, by Rizutto/SH Landesberg (the student), who Rizutto said knew L'eandes (the actor), with the exception of the actor's former roommate, Michael Dunn? 2. There are credible reports indicating different addresses for the two different Landesbergs. L'eandes/SR Landesberg (the future actor) on 8th St. or McDougal St. and Landes/SH Landesberg, the student, who lived at 66 W. 10th St.Two NY newspapers, according to H&L critics, are simply incapable of getting NYC addresses straight. 3. When the FBI attempted to locate a man named "Regan" who Rizzuto/Landesberg (the student) said paid L'eander (the actor), they bothered to travel all the way to the Roosevelt Hotel in New Orleans, forgetting to visit the Roosevelt Hotel in New York, where Rizzuto said Regan lived. This, we're told, is a perfectly understandable mistake. 4. Rizzuto/Landesberg (the student) told the FBI that Oswald, L'eandes and a man named Earl Perry worked together in New York City in 1961-62 (when Harvey Oswald was in Russia). Perry was from El Paso, Texas and was stationed at Barstow, CA. SA J. Richard Nichols contacted Major Robert C. Whitebread of the USMC in an attempt to locate Earl Perry, who knew L'eandes (the actor) and Oswald. Nichols learned that the only Earl Perry on active duty was assigned to the Marine Supply Center in Barstow, CA., and was from El Paso, TX. But on Nov 26, instead of requesting the military file for Earl Eugene Perry (El Paso, TX), SA Leonard Lewis obtained the file for Earl Sheldon Perry from the Military Personnel Records Center in St. Louis. Earl Sheldon Perry was from Casper, Wyoming, joined the US Army in 1954, and was discharged in 1956. The FBI avoided contacting Earl Eugene Perry from El Paso. 5. Many people seem totally unconcerned that all paper court records and backup microfilm records for the arrest and incarceration of Stephen Harris Landesberg (the student) have disappeared. Researchers might want to contact the US District Court House for the Southern District of NY at 40 Foley Square in NYC, to see if the records have reappeard, but I won't hold my breath. One more time.... WHY DOES THE FBI INTERVIEW THE WRONG EARL PERRY, THE MOST CRITICAL CO-WITNESS IN THE WHOLE LANDESBERG AFFAIR? SURE LOOKS LIKE YET ANOTHER FBI COVER-UP! WHY DOES THE FBI GO TO THE WRONG ROOSEVELT HOTEL, MORE THAN A THOUSAND MILES FROM THE CORRECT ROOSEVELT HOTEL IN NEW YORK CITY, TO LOOK FOR CLUES ABOUT THE MAN WHO ALLEGEDLY PAID SR LANDESBERG! HOW CAN YOU EXPLAIN SUCH UTTER INCOMPETENCY? Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Tom Scully - 14-07-2015 Mr. Hargrove, I do not plan to post again about the SH Landesberg controversy, except perhaps on the narrow area of medical disorder symptoms. Replying to your concerns about the FBI "handling" of the case, I interpret it in a broad angle about like this. It is 29 November, six days after the first FBI encounter with Rizutto, and "he" cannot be found for the purpose of follow up questioning. I have no way of knowing how high of a priority investigating Rizzuto further, was, or of the weight of the details he had provided on 23 November, (after LHO's death) as the days went by. I take into account that nothing could be verified, none of the names provided by Rizutto were found to exist..... no military service records, passport records, responses from post offices, including in Wiggins, MS, and on the 24th Ruby had murdered LHO. By the 29th, there is support for, and I already posted a source describing it, that field agents had been working long hours, including through the weekend of the 23rd and 24th. I produced an FBI document reporting that both WMCA news directer Roger Turner and radio personality Barry Gray had been shown, on the 29th, a photo of L'eandes. We know what the FBI reported their mutual reaction to the photo was, with regard to Rizzuto. Everything is consistent from the morning of Nov. 23, on, considering what the FBI reports contain. Rizzuto details names, places, relationships, his own and involving LHO. Nothing pans out, and the USMC records sources are reported to have been less than helpful in response to both the names Perry and Felde. I've recounted the lack of ANY verifying details coming in that could be built on. The photo Identification reported coming from Turner and Gray on the 29th surely contributed to a slowdown, but the investigation continued with some, but waning intensity, understandable with Rizzuto unaccounted for and again, no actionable verifying input to any inquiry stemming from Rizzuto's facts. On the 29th, the case is headed understandably for criminal investigation of Rizzuto, not surprising after the photo ID's reportedly from Turner and Gray. On the 5th of December, the FBI has recently discharged USMC private Stephen Harris Landes and his medical record, and a reported confession from he that he also was the origin of the L'eandes and the Rizzuto personalities. So, everything seems consistent, criticize it at will, and if it amounts to FBI reports full of serial fakery, they did a passable job of having it seem consistent, justified, sequential steps, at least to me. So here is the detailed Landes USMC medical record.: http://maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10535&search=landes#relPageId=1&tab=page I've spent some time matching the symptoms, although Landes's mother downplayed the stuttering, as if it her son had outgrown that symptom. So I do not have to reply later, I know.....it's only a movie.: Quote:Primal Fear (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote:Billy Milligan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Quote: Fascinating case, if this is what it is all about. Very difficult to diagnose dissociative identity disorder, even today, if Landes(berg) was misdiagnosed in 1960-61. I hope some of my contribution in this controversy is considered helpful to you at some point. In the meantime, consider that I take the details and you disagree with my giving what the government investigators present, a place at the table until I can determine otherwise, consider that I do deliver results that stand up to loud protests, on several occasions. Also, you cannot type me. I am only predictable in that I try not to work against myself, my research efforts. I've proven that Priscilla took Marina to Sedona, AZ in late '64, picked up in Dallas and driven to AZ by a friend (mistaken in AZ, for the two ladys' bodyguard, Jerre Hasty aka Hastings was the spouse of Clark McAdams Clifford's aunt, Marguerite Bowman McAdams) of Priscilla's cousin, David Coit Davenport, described by Sam Ballen in his book as a "CIA man." Davenport shielded Marina and Priscilla from inquiring news media, at his Santa Fe home during the weeks before and after the WCR release was anticipated. .: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293 : Marina, Jerome "Jerre" Allen Hasty aka Hastings, uncle by marriage of Clark M. Clifford, and Priscilla Mary Post Johnson..... Quote:Without Reservations: From Harlem to the End of the Santa ... David Davenport married the daughter of the first OSS commander of the London post, promoted on orders from Col. Ellery C. Huntington : MISS EL BREWER WED IN ELMSFORD; She Is Attended by Seven... ‎ New York Times - Dec 20, 1942 19 -- The marriage of Miss Effie Leighton Brewer, daughter of Major George Emerson Brewer, US.., and IVLrs. Brewer of this place to David Coit Davenport, son of Mrs. 1VfcHarg Davenport of Santa Fe, 1. ... of Hastings Owing to the absence of her father, who is serving overseas, the bride was and Eunice Johnson of Mill Neck, LI, a cousin of the bridegroom. 7/T66 Doo 1546, con't. Interviews with Marina, pp. 229-49, inc. 9/8 [B]...[/B] jfk.hood.edu/Collection/.../N%20Disk/.../Item%2018.pdf File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View She and Priscilla Johnson stayed at Santa Fe with a relative of. Miss Johnsons named Davenport and Declan Ford advised that anyone wantingnto speak "Davenport" was the son-in-law of George E. Brewer, Jr. Brewer was appointed interim chief of OSS Europe by the Lt. Col. assigned by Bill Donovan to go to London in early 1943 to establish coordinationwith the British SOE: Sisterhood of Spies - The New York Times www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mcintosh-sisterhood.html When he applied for a job in January 1942, forty-eight-year old Ellery C. Huntington Jr. hoped for an overseas assignment, possibly behind enemy lines. From 1933, Huntington, Jr. was a co-trustee of Equity Corp. with David Milton. Huntington, Jr. retired as Equity Corp. Chairman in 1958. (V.P. was Walter Dornberger.....Bell Helicopter division of Equity Corp.) Plaintiff suing Hasty and Davenport in 1965 was presidential advisor Clark Clifford's first cousin : Quote:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35602601/ You do not know me, but I am open to results oriented research. I hope you find this example, thought provoking. I cannot dismiss that Priscilla and her first cousin, Davenport may have been acting at the direction of the permanent government, of which I am convinced Clifford was a member. His uncle employed James Phelan at the Alton Telegraph during Phelan's first decade in the newspaper business. Who can forget this?: Who ya gonna call, to while away the hours on the days after, on the first full day of your sudden ascension to POTUS? Quote:http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/cclifford.htm Priscilla's father died suddenly in 1969. The man who reported him missing to police was a cousin of Allen Dulles.: https://archive.is/o/esTuB/http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=95330&relPageId=42 http://archive.is/esTuB Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 14-07-2015 Tom Scully Wrote:Cite your source, back your claim. Please avoid risking the hypocrisy of posting a source footnoted by an FBI report. You're not answering the point Scully. Therefore you're not arguing honestly. You haven't confronted the basic point that the evidence clearly shows FBI accepted L'eandes was a provocateur at political rallies. So even if hypothetically Rizzuto was L'eandes (which he clearly wasn't) FBI had no excuse for not following-through to see if this provocateur was sponsored. This is yet another instance of FBI violating its normal rules of investigation. The reason Hargrove keeps repeating that same post is because you repeatedly ignore it and don't answer the finer points of the arguments. You're doing that again here. You are trying to get too much out of the minor technicality of not quoting FBI reports exactly perfectly, but, as the arguments you continue to not answer show, it doesn't make any difference and there's incriminating evidence out there to show that SR Landesberg was L'eandes and FBI covered it up. Your excuses don't answer, once FBI realized it went to the wrong hotel, why they didn't follow up by going to the correct one and looking for L'eandes' potential sponsor? All the claims of mental illness and confessions etc don't excuse FBI for not doing this basic follow-through. It's clear the reason they didn't is because they were avoiding exposing a live op and clan of US intel domestic spies. Their own, in other words. I see you are indirectly registering the problem with the stuttering. However you deal with it by resourcing the good doctor Parker who is now an expert conspiracy research psychologist who diagnoses Aspergers and now multi-personality disorder in order to create crank explanations for his ham-handed theories. You can't get around SH Landesberg's stuttering problem. It is a major deal-breaker for the claim that the smooth and personable L'eandes was the same person who pulled off very good performances in interviews and provocateur work. Our camp has a very simple KISS solution for this conflict - SR Landesberg was L'eandes. Your camp brings in the famed crank psychologist Dr Greg Parker who gets around this obvious problem by diagnosing a severe case of multi-personality disorder. This would have to be a severe case in order to get around such a pronounced speech defect condition. If you study the same data dump links you provide for multi-personality disorder you'll see that such a serious case of multi-personality disorder would be accompanied by observable symptoms and noticed acts of severe personality changes in normal life. None of which SH Landesberg was ever witnessed doing. You H&L deniers always make the mistake of getting carried away with your excuse-making. Knowing this stuttering problem seriously undermines your theory you rush to grab any excuse you can without thinking. For if you had given this better thought you would realize that no serious multi-personality case to the degree you are claiming here could possibly go on to have a successful career and normal life as a business person. Like Ralph Yates there's a strange relationship between persons becoming serious threats to exposing FBI corruption and sudden flare-ups of serious mental illness that just so happens to require FBI intervention. Because these bogus explanations are referenced through accessed files and sources does not make them any less bogus or easily refutable. Nor does it make them any less deserving of a serious answer that never seems to come in any of Scully's Lone Nut-type efforts. I have yet to see Scully ever reply to the fact that SR Landesberg is more than associated with practicing a southern accent throughout his life and career. Yet despite this obvious association the H&L attackers are asking us to ignore it and accept that SH Landesberg, with his social awkwardness and serious speech defect, who was never documented speaking in a southern accent, is our man and to ignore everything else - because FBI says so. Never once does Scully ever admit that the information in the FBI files is written in such a way as to incriminate SH Landesberg and disappear the provocateur who worked with Oswald, SR Landesberg. God help anyone who defends FBI in the Kennedy Assassination. Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Dawn Meredith - 14-07-2015 Back to the subject at hand: Two LHOs. From the blog of George Bailey: When I first started researching the Oswald-as-double I considered it to be the farthest out I was willing to go in the annuals of the Kennedy assassination. The are wilder theories out there such as Oswald being an MK-ULTRA mind control assassin. (Hmm...would a lone nut gunman also apply here?) The idea of multiple assassins resembling each other running loose remains a troubling issue and adds a strange aura to the tragic event. It is one area that only a hand full of JKF researchers wish to examine as it is viewed as a far-out topic, one worthy of a Moulder and Sculley investigation in the the X-Files. However, one surprising fact is the actual genesis of Lee H. Oswald as a doppelganger starts out in the highest level of government and in the upper echelon of Federal criminal investigation. Namely, J. Edgar Hoover, Director of the FBI. It was Hoover, in his 1960 memo to the Office of Security, Department of State, that basically sent a warning that there existed a "possibility" that the ex-marine defector to the Soviet Union was being impersonated and someone was using his birth certificate to do so. He doesn't state his evidence for this nor add any additional details in the memo. In those days, Hoover's word was etched in stone. Later, in 1961, a State Dept. official will send a memo to another, warning that the next time Lee Oswald is issued a passport, make sure he gets it personally; that way the right Oswald gets the right passport as it was suspected he was being impersonated. Again, no qualifiers for this. Apparently, it was something that was known and treated with great seriousness, at this level. The word at this point, is making the rounds. By the June of 1962 Lee Oswald and family are back in the United States. When he returns back to Dallas as his ill-fated trip to Mexico City (known as Oswald's Magical Mystery Tour) in the September of 1963 the CIA is recording all telephonic traffic in and out of the Russian and Cuban embassies. CIA station chief Winston Scott believed that Oswald being impersonated after examining the tapes and kept a back-up copy in his private safe. Hoover had his agents, seven of them, review the tapes and they determined the man speaking on the telephone calls is not Oswald. This man is speaking broken Russian to the Russians, and speaking excellent Spanish to the Cubans. A total reversal of Oswald's known language skills. Shortly after the assassination, Hoover related this information to Lyndon Johnson. The new President in turn, used this for the final arm twisting of Earl Warren to get him to serve on the Commission. So while one might consider the doppelganger or impersonator to be a nutty idea, it's apparently not considered that at all by various authorities within the government. Far from being fringe subject matter, it is accepted as fact in these inner circles. Oswald is being impersonated but by whom is not known, at least by Hoover. Or maybe Hoover did know, just kept it to himself. Sometimes methods and practices have to be concealed so those being surveilled do not become aware of the operations directed against them. Never the less, it was important enough for Hoover to leave a paper trail on this issue warning other departments as did others in the bureaucracy. The President himself knew. Earl Warren knew and made sure it was not a topic that would be investigated later. Lee Oswald now becomes a far more important figure that first told. After all, who wants to impersonate a nobody? The Lone Senator And The Lone Gunman The Senator from Georgia, Richard Russell was the odd man out on the Warren Commission. He has the distinction of being the member with the fewest amount of appearances at Commission meetings. Many people have taken him to task for this but the fact of matter was, he discovered early on that this was not going to be an outfit that was going to get to the bottom of the Kennedy assassination. He knew it was going to be "investigation theater" from there on after reading the initial, and wholly inadequate, FBI report and seeing how Earl Warren was going to conduct the whole affair. He was so disgusted with the proceedings he wrote a letter of resignation, dated February 24, 1964, but never forwarded it to President Johnson. Senator Russell's most important act being on the Commission was not what he did there, which was not much, but in leading his own personal inquiry into what happened. He enlisted the expertise of Colonel Philip Corso, an expert in military intelligence to research the issue. (Those of you familiar with a certain late night radio talk program that deals in the paranormal and especially UFOs will be familiar with the name of Philip Corso!) He uncovered two things; one, that there were two different birth certificates for Lee Harvey Oswald and they had both been used by two different people. Secondly, there were two different passports issued to a Lee Harvey Oswald and both had been used by two different people. Colonel Corso's final conclusion was there was a conspiracy, the plot leading to directly to Lyndon Johnson, allied with rogue elements of the CIA and the anti-Castro Cubans. Remember, this is 1964; it's startling how this idea, with this limited amount of inquiry except by one man, had been fully realized at this early date. Unfortunately, there is only circumstantial evidence for many of these conclusions but many other researchers have since come to this idea of rouge government agents in a plot to kill Kennedy, especially the CIA with Kennedy vowing to scatter them to the winds. The Cubans could be counted on as well, still smarting over Kennedy not committing air support for the Bay of Pigs invasion. Never the less, Senator Russell agreed with Corso's conclusion knowing he could never convince the other members of the Commission for this scenario. His hunch that things were fishy here with the official story and there was more to it, proved out. Years later, he would become one of the Commission's biggest critics along with fellow Warren Commission member Hale Bogs. The Final Phase As we have seen, the idea of Lee Oswald having a double comes not from conspiracy theorists, or "armchair investigators" as Gerald Ford put it, but from government insiders at the FBI, CIA, Department of State, and so on. And not only Federal but State documents also confirm this. Such as a form from the Texas Employment Commission which documents a series of aptitude tests Lee Oswald completed that starts in April of 1962. As stated earlier, he and his wife and daughter did not return to the United States till June of 1962. In April, he is known to still be in Russia working at the radio factory in Minsk. A lot of documents are missing but every so often a gem like that appears to add new dimensions to the Kennedy assassination and further our knowledge on Oswald and whoever he was. Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 16-07-2015 Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 16-07-2015 It makes you wonder how many false defectors like Webster were referred to as "Project"? Or anybody. Deniers try not to notice the huge pile of evidence they have to ignore in order to make their dismissive arguments. You can imagine the file tracing that could be done if they knew the Oswald cryptonym. I think it is time for H&L defenders to ignore some obvious trolls who will say anything to deny the obvious. Imagine someone patronizing Wilcott by saying he believed what he said was true while ignoring that what he said was Oswald was identified by a CIA case officer as being a "project" with a cryptonym. That by some perverted twist of logic that you could think this was true yet it had no significance. The deniers are sick people that shouldn't be taken seriously. The deniers are basically trolling. . Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 17-07-2015 Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Drew Phipps - 17-07-2015 Dallas PD's inventory ( this site but not this page ) http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338767/m1/21/?q=inventory lists an "application for driver's license" among Oswald's possessions at the Beckley boarding house. Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 17-07-2015 What some of the deniers foolishly don't understand is that the item in question is a small paper card license designed to be held in a wallet. A certain crude H&L denier is trying to present the smudged driver's license application as being the card found at the Texas Highway and Safety Department. Only someone who doesn't know what they are talking about would dare propose that the large legal letter-sized application is what the clerk was referring to when she said 6 employees saw the small driver's license with Oswald's name on it. The claim that this card was the application only shows the investigatory incompetence of the claimer. This crude hack is trying to place himself and his judgment before the people who were there and were trained to identify such objects. Driver's license cards were something they handled every day. They knew the difference between an application and license. The card was clearly referred to as a "driver's license". Only a person not mindful of their credibility and desperate to deny H&L would dare such a sloppy claim. The bungling failure of the deniers to refute this obvious driver's license creates big problems for the attackers of Armstrong's theory because it is strong proof of an existing and well-used license long before Oswald applied for a driver's license. It would make sense that such a license existed because any Oswald doubles would want to avoid bringing attention to themselves by being caught driving without one. The deniers are ignoring the numerous sightings of Oswald driving, or creating silly excuses for these events like the application. Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 17-07-2015 I've always been fascinated by the driver's license business. It is amazing how many people saw Lee Oswald drive. The Warren Commission attorneys SEEMED genuinely puzzled by it all, because they got Marina (who said her husband didn't drive, along with the Paines) together with several witnesses who said he DID drive a car, and let them argue it out, sort of. But what is really remarkable is that the WC staff simply didn't call the Texas Dept of Public Safety and find out if there was a driver's license issued to "Lee Harvey Oswald." They were probably afraid of the answer they might get. Fortunately, Jim Garrison wasn't afraid. If anyone hasn't seen it, there is a good write-up on the issue here: |