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+--- Thread: CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine (/thread-12545.html)
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Albert Doyle - 27-05-2014
Edit: Figured it out from the rifle in evidence. The Fucile Corto was 40 inches.
By the way, the mount band appears to be wider on the backyard photo than the rifle in evidence. That doesn't jibe.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - David Josephs - 27-05-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:Edit: Figured it out from the rifle in evidence. The Fucile Corto was 40 inches.
By the way, the mount band appears to be wider on the backyard photo than the rifle in evidence. That doesn't jibe.
The evidence available tells us that the June 1962 shipment to Kleins included C2766 along with 99 other FC rifles (designated "38 E" on the packing slips)
But from what KLEINS order is that shipment processed?
All we have is the 1/15/62 order form for 400 M91TS rifles.
Unless we are to believe that the 4/13/62 change to FC rilfes took 10 MONTHS to fulfill...
::laughingdog::
One might also ask where the 460 or so cases of rifles RUPP removed and prepared for shipment... went. :
hock::By October 1962 he had prepared THOUSANDS of rifles from the original order.
In OCTOBER 1962 alone he removed 264 CASES of 38E, 91I, 38I rifles
"Standard Financial Corp" ??
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The shipping order for 10 cases from OTTSVILLE is undated. Ottsville is not where RUPP's shop is. (Gil doesn't even have this doc from what I remember)
What the WCR does is push the notion that C2766 was delivered in Feb 1963... There is simply no proof of that occurring
DJ
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CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Albert Doyle - 27-05-2014
Agreed. There's plenty of evidence there were several rifles being floated around the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald.
The barrel mount band is puzzling. It appears to be way too wide to be the same side mount band seen on the rifle in evidence. That makes the backyard rifle even crazier.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Bob Prudhomme - 27-05-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:Agreed. There's plenty of evidence there were several rifles being floated around the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald.
The barrel mount band is puzzling. It appears to be way too wide to be the same side mount band seen on the rifle in evidence. That makes the backyard rifle even crazier.
I don't think it is all that crazy. As I said earlier, many rifles returned to the Italian government broken or missing pieces. Part of Riva's job in preparing them for export was robbing parts from reject rifles to make complete rifles of the better ones. The bottom sling mount was far more common on Carcano rifles than the slide sling mount. It may well be that C2766 first arrived in America with a bottom sling mount on the forestock and a side sling mount on the butt stock. Changing it back to the original side sling mount may have occurred when the rope sling was replaced with the holster sling, and would have taken about five minutes.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Albert Doyle - 27-05-2014
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:It may well be that C2766 first arrived in America with a bottom sling mount on the forestock and a side sling mount on the butt stock. Changing it back to the original side sling mount may have occurred when the rope sling was replaced with the holster sling, and would have taken about five minutes.
By who though? When and where? By Dial Ryder?
Bob, look at my posts. Chances are the rifle in the backyard photo already has a barrel side sling mount. However it appears it has one with an abnormally wide band.
Would the Italian preparers send mismatching mounts which would be awkward due to their discomfort? Are there any other cases where buyers received mismatching mounts?
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Bob Prudhomme - 27-05-2014
Albert Doyle Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:It may well be that C2766 first arrived in America with a bottom sling mount on the forestock and a side sling mount on the butt stock. Changing it back to the original side sling mount may have occurred when the rope sling was replaced with the holster sling, and would have taken about five minutes.
By who though? When and where? By Dial Ryder?
Bob, look at my posts. Chances are the rifle in the backyard photo already has a barrel side sling mount. However it appears it has one with an abnormally wide band.
Would the Italian preparers send mismatching mounts which would be awkward due to their discomfort? Are there any other cases where buyers received mismatching mounts?
It would be the same person that fitted the rifle with a piece of rope for a sling, and then swapped that rope for a sling made from a holster strap. I would think the strap swap would bother everyone more than the sling mounts.
I would also think the wide band would be indicative of something amiss with the sling mount. I don't think the Italians particularly cared if the mismatched sling mounts were uncomfortable or not. As I said earlier, I have seen Carcanos with forward sling mounts that have both a side and a bottom ring. Also, there is a Carcano registry that shows a small number of M91/38's with bottom sling mounts. When and where they received these is not stated, but I would guess it was just prior to being exported as surplus.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - David Josephs - 27-05-2014
So basically Albert and Bob....
You've hijacked the thread to steer it toward the BYP and the physical characteristics of the rifle...
rather than the evidence related to the rifle itself that tells us where it was and when - while contradicting the offered evidence trail fabricated by the FBI.
There are TONS of BYP threads... argue this there please... I have already shown that the BYP rifle is NOT the TSBD rifle... although they may have been from the same batch or of the same type as Bob tells us.
If the Hidell order was processed with an 1891 Troop Special... and was neither shipped or delivered or paid for or correctly inventoried...
The rifle in the BYP and the TSBD could NOT be that rifle, even if it was delivered and paid for...
Whether that is Oswald in the BYP, body and head, the debate continues...
One should reflect though on... Name a single piece of WCR evidence that can be authenticated which leads to Oswald's guilt...
The rifle and photos are just part of the charade designed to keep us arguing and debating ad nauseum.
Let's make it plain and clear:
the rifle was a plant
the BYPs were created to implicate Oswald
the Klein's evidence was altered/created in the hands of the FBI
Noone can prove otherwise.
If anyone knew about this SS report and conclusion, it had not be offered before as much as I can tell... L
ike CD298, it gives us a glimpse into the FACTS which were hidden out of sight.
There is no proveable connection between Oswald and that rifle.
DJ
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Drew Phipps - 28-05-2014
David: I agree that you have demonstrated that c2766 could not be linked sufficiently to Oswald solely by virtue of the purchase orders that purportedly trace it. Add that to the fact that "2766" appears on multiple rifle(s). It is apparent that the government would need more proof if the case were to come to trial. The "more proof" I mention would have to take the form of fingerprint evidence, or backyard photos, to get to gun ownership. Bob and Albert are merely taking your work to the next set of issues of proof. Whether the gun in the TBD is the same gun as in the backyard photos (or not), and whether the backyard photos are "real" (or forgeries) is another quite essential element of the government's proof, more so if the chain of purchase doesn't get them there. A question that I'm still left with is the origin and provenance of the new strap (and/or strap mounts). Oswald was a notorious penny pincher, and wouldn't have needed the bother of carrying it, and spending time to affix it to the rifle, and then disposing of it (and worrying that as a bit of evidence it might link to him), if his plan all along was to assemble the rifle in the snipers nest and discard it at the scene.
Edit: You also have to attack the FBI fiber evidence from the butt of c2766 which claims that the fibers stuck in the gun match those of the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested, or prove that Oswald changed shirts after leaving work.
However, the work you have done doesn't exclude c2766 as the murder weapon. (Bob's ballistics work excludes it as the rifle that fired the magic bullet, and makes it highly unlikely to be the aassination weapon, but that still doesn't quite get us there.) Logically, Oswald could still be the shooter, even if he isn't the owner (although you are stuck with some sort of conspiracy at that point). Your work is essential but not sufficient. You would still have to attack Lt. Day's fingerprint work to reach your conclusion that the rifle is a plant. (Don't mistake me, I'm not defending Lt. Day; you just haven't gone quite far enough to reach your end point) Additionally, I would suggest that you fomulate some researchable theory about who "planted" the gun and when, to reach your conclusion. A post-assasination conspiracy to frame Oswald doesn't carry the same caliber of troubling conclusions as a pre-assasination frame-up does.
I also think that saying, "you can't prove otherwise" isn't a good stopping point. Everyone has a different level of satisfaction about proof and evidence, so that standard seems a bit too subjective to rest on. Our jury system (at last in Texas) means that the State has to meet 12/12 particular levels of satisfaction at the same time. Unfortunately, people still get wrongly convicted. Your work in this thread gets us past the "lone nut" but doesn't exclude Oswald as a conspirator or as a shooter.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Bob Prudhomme - 28-05-2014
David Josephs Wrote:So basically Albert and Bob....
You've hijacked the thread to steer it toward the BYP and the physical characteristics of the rifle...
rather than the evidence related to the rifle itself that tells us where it was and when - while contradicting the offered evidence trail fabricated by the FBI.
There are TONS of BYP threads... argue this there please... I have already shown that the BYP rifle is NOT the TSBD rifle... although they may have been from the same batch or of the same type as Bob tells us.
If the Hidell order was processed with an 1891 Troop Special... and was neither shipped or delivered or paid for or correctly inventoried...
The rifle in the BYP and the TSBD could NOT be that rifle, even if it was delivered and paid for...
Whether that is Oswald in the BYP, body and head, the debate continues...
One should reflect though on... Name a single piece of WCR evidence that can be authenticated which leads to Oswald's guilt...
The rifle and photos are just part of the charade designed to keep us arguing and debating ad nauseum.
Let's make it plain and clear:
the rifle was a plant
the BYPs were created to implicate Oswald
the Klein's evidence was altered/created in the hands of the FBI
Noone can prove otherwise.
If anyone knew about this SS report and conclusion, it had not be offered before as much as I can tell... L
ike CD298, it gives us a glimpse into the FACTS which were hidden out of sight.
There is no proveable connection between Oswald and that rifle.
DJ
Sorry about that, David. I get so enthusiastic about the finer points of the rifle, I don't even notice I'm hijacking a thread.
CD87 p92 - SS tells us the rifle Kleins shipped to Hidell was a 91(T)roop (S)pecial carbine - Drew Phipps - 28-05-2014
Just saw this challenge: "Name a single piece of WCR evidence that can be authenticated that leads to Oswald's guilt."
Oswald's anomalous behavior after the shooting of JFK would be admissible evidence of "guilt" (though not anything more specific that that). Leaving work early without asking the boss, abortive bus ride that he wastes a perfectly good fare to leave, an "expensive" cab ride (for the thrifty Oswald at least), changing clothes; grabbing either a loaded pistol, or grabbing pistol and ammo (but from where?) and loading the pistol; concealing it, and heading out to a movie theater, striking a cop in the face, pulling a loaded pistol on a cop, resisting arrest, would be admissible evidence of a guilty "state of mind." As far as authenticating it, this stuff was all (allegedly) admitted by Oswald (some of it on live TV), backed up by eyewitnesses, and doesn't seem to be seriously contested by anyone. (This stuff is also completely independent of the Tippet matter, but if he did kill Tippet, that would also be evidence.)
I know this doesn't you very far along in support of any particular theory of the case, but it would be admissible and it would be evidence. In Texas, this is evidence of "guilt", not a great deal of evidence to be sure, but still evidence.