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+--- Thread: Lovelady in front of TSBD (/thread-13387.html)
Lovelady in front of TSBD - David Josephs - 19-02-2015
Bob...
Lovelady and Shelley are sadly not the keys to the conspiracy... I appreciate they made changes to their signed statements when it was testimony time...but they little if anything to do with the assassination compared to what they may have been involved with inside the TSBD and its gunrunning activities... I don't think we can underestimate the relationships in Dallas/NOLA/Chicago/Montreal/LA to the gun running operations. Shelley was either involved or watching the goings on for others...
I posted this before with a question mark, yet I am becoming more and more convinced that the man in these photos is Shelley, in New Orlean in August with the Cuban/Oswald/Bannister group. To me this is much more worrisome than some of their activity conflicts just after the shots... unless you can show they were somehow involved with the excape, planting of evidence, or who knows what... but we need a little evidence other than their testimony conflicts, imo.
Sure looks like him to me - over 2 months before Oswald is hired at the TSBD.. hmmmm
Now, the man Baker writes about coming down the stairs as they are going up, ID'd by Truly as an employee and released which becomes the lunchroom story (which btw never happened - the man on the second floor walks past Reid on his way out and is not wearing an overshirt..
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you.
Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell?
Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt?
Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on.
I'd need a bit more nefarious behavior by these guys - the real question is why the WC lawyers would want them to amend their statements to include a delay.
Lovelady does not appear to me in the film of Baker running to the steps...
DJ
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Bob Prudhomme - 19-02-2015
"I'd need a bit more nefarious behavior by these guys - the real question is why the WC lawyers would want them to amend their statements to include a delay.
Lovelady does not appear to me in the film of Baker running to the steps..."
You are correct. Lovelady is not on the steps when Baker runs up them. Baker testified, and this testimony was put to the test in a re-enactment, that 15 seconds elapsed from the time he heard the 3rd shot, until he was going through the front door of the TSBD. If Lovelady and Shelley actually were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension, when they looked back to see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD, they likely had to leave the steps just before the 3rd shot.
The whole point of my argument is that Shelley's and Lovelady's lies were not only in their WC testimony, but in their affidavits, as well. Look at the map Tracy posted. As soon as they took five steps away from the TSBD steps, they eliminated any chance of running into Gloria Calvary, as she would have been coming up the Elm St. sidewalk, and they were going in almost the opposite direction. Why was it so important for Shelley to mention Gloria Calvary by name in his affidavit, especially when the physical evidence shows it would have been impossible for he and Lovelady to have run into her? Did she pose some threat to the coverup, and was it necessary to put her somewhere else at a certain time?
I think the real reason why the WC lawyers needed Shelley and Lovelady to delay their time of leaving the TSBD steps by 3-4 minutes is as plain as the nose on your face, and is one of the cornerstones of the coverup. Victoria Adams swore that she and Sandra Styles were on the 4th floor of the TSBD, watching the motorcade, and, immediately after the last shot, ran down the very same stairs Oswald allegedly ran down, and Baker and Truly ran up. And, of course, we all know she saw neither saw or heard anyone on those stairs but her and Sandra Styles. Her story had the potential to sink the whole 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter. By delaying Shelley and Lovelady by 3-4 minutes, and having them encounter Ms. Adams on the main floor, on her way out the door, serious doubt could be thrown on her coverup-breaking story's timing, and she could be made to look like a silly young woman in three inch heels who couldn't estimate time, or run down stairs very quickly.
However, if she was accurate about her timing from the 4th floor, and it was Shelley and Lovelady who were put up to perjury by the WC lawyers, it is not just her lack of contact with Oswald that is troubling. The real question is, why did she not run into Truly and Baker on the stairs? Has Baker's timing been adjusted for the coverup, as well?
P.S.
The ears don't look right. Shelley's ears stick out sideways like Dumbo's. The guy in the NO photo has ears tucked neatly to the side of his head, unless the ear in the NO photo has been cropped and adjusted.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - David Josephs - 19-02-2015
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:"I'd need a bit more nefarious behavior by these guys - the real question is why the WC lawyers would want them to amend their statements to include a delay.
Lovelady does not appear to me in the film of Baker running to the steps..."
You are correct. Lovelady is not on the steps when Baker runs up them. Baker testified, and this testimony was put to the test in a re-enactment, that 15 seconds elapsed from the time he heard the 3rd shot, until he was going through the front door of the TSBD. If Lovelady and Shelley actually were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension, when they looked back to see Truly and Baker enter the TSBD, they likely had to leave the steps just before the 3rd shot.
The whole point of my argument is that Shelley's and Lovelady's lies were not only in their WC testimony, but in their affidavits, as well. Look at the map Tracy posted. As soon as they took five steps away from the TSBD steps, they eliminated any chance of running into Gloria Calvary, as she would have been coming up the Elm St. sidewalk, and they were going in almost the opposite direction. Why was it so important for Shelley to mention Gloria Calvary by name in his affidavit, especially when the physical evidence shows it would have been impossible for he and Lovelady to have run into her? Did she pose some threat to the coverup, and was it necessary to put her somewhere else at a certain time?
I think the real reason why the WC lawyers needed Shelley and Lovelady to delay their time of leaving the TSBD steps by 3-4 minutes is as plain as the nose on your face, and is one of the cornerstones of the coverup. Victoria Adams swore that she and Sandra Styles were on the 4th floor of the TSBD, watching the motorcade, and, immediately after the last shot, ran down the very same stairs Oswald allegedly ran down, and Baker and Truly ran up. And, of course, we all know she saw neither saw or heard anyone on those stairs but her and Sandra Styles. Her story had the potential to sink the whole 2nd floor Oswald/Baker encounter. By delaying Shelley and Lovelady by 3-4 minutes, and having them encounter Ms. Adams on the main floor, on her way out the door, serious doubt could be thrown on her coverup-breaking story's timing, and she could be made to look like a silly young woman in three inch heels who couldn't estimate time, or run down stairs very quickly.
However, if she was accurate about her timing from the 4th floor, and it was Shelley and Lovelady who were put up to perjury by the WC lawyers, it is not just her lack of contact with Oswald that is troubling. The real question is, why did she not run into Truly and Baker on the stairs? Has Baker's timing been adjusted for the coverup, as well?
P.S.
The ears don't look right. Shelley's ears stick out sideways like Dumbo's. The guy in the NO photo has ears tucked neatly to the side of his head, unless the ear in the NO photo has been cropped and adjusted.
I still think the similarities are striking and hard to dismiss... the cheek bones, the hair parts, even the way the light bounces off his hair... the implications are monumental if it is him.
---
Seems to me that Victoria left very quickly after the shots. This is Dillard within 20 seconds after the shots - agreed?
We can see a man in the far left window still watching. Yet no Adams, Styles, Dorman or Garner
So what do you think? If Adams left right away while Truly and Baker are talking then deciding where to go, whe most likely got down ahead of them.
Seems to me that between getting into the building, deciding what to do, getting to the NE corner elevators, calling for and waiting for the elevator and then finally running up the stairs, Adams and Styles could have already been down and gone... That Adams says she see Lovelady and Shelley becomes the real question - was this before or after she leaves and comes back...?? who knows.
Mr. TRULY. I am pointing to the west one. This elevator was on the fifth floor. Also, the east elevator-- as far as I can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time. This elevator will come down if the gates are down, and
you push a button.
Representative FORD. Which elevator is that?
Mr. TRULY. The west one. But the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. You cannot call it if the gates are down.
Representative FORD. That is the east elevator?
Mr. TRULY. The east elevator? There is a button and a little bell here. I pressed
Mr. BELIN. You might put a "B" on Exhibit 362 by the elevator for "button."
Mr. TRULY. That is right on this surface. There is a little button. I pressed the button and the elevator didn't move.
I called upstairs , "Turn loose the elevator."
Mr. BELIN. When you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call?
Mr. TRULY. Real loud. I suppose in an excited voice. But loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. But I rang the bell and pushed this button.
Mr. BELIN. What did you call?
Mr. TRULY. I said, "Turn loose the elevator." Those boys understand that language.
Mr. BELIN. What does that mean?
Mr. TRULY. That means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down.
Mr. BELIN. And how many times did you yell that?
Mr. TRULY. Two times.
Mr. BELIN. After you had first pushed the button?
Mr. TRULY. That is right. I had pressed the button twice I believe, and called up for the elevator twice.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? First of all, did the elevator come down?
Mr. TRULY. It did not.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. TRULY. I went up on a run up the stairway
From this it appears Dorman was to the RIGHT of the light pole as we face the TSBD yet the open window is to the left...
According to the witnesses with her and Dorman herself, she claims to ahve been sitting by the open window and filming
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf
p12 Calvary, p26 Dorman, p33 Garner, p90 Styles, p2 Adams
Calvary says nothing of seeing Lovelady or Shelley or talking to them (not called to testify)
Dorman claims to have been in the open window, stopped filming and the is gone (not called to testify)
Garner confirms where Dorman and the others were.
And finally - Victoria's on page 2. For her to have seen the "confusion" she was at the window for a little while, just not in Dillard.
Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Styles was not called to testify but does corroborate Adams in her statement... What I find suprising (and in direct conflic to the "building being sealed by 12:37 by Sawyer) that policemen are telling witnesses to go back into the TSBD ?!?!
Why would the police be sending people to the building where the shots came from if that was what they believed?
Styles even says she encounters a policeman at the rear who told her to leave that area - she walked around the building and back in the front door, unstopped.
Does Lovelady/Shelley mix Calvary with Adams and is the reason they changed their story?
Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute
Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?
Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."
And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Michael Cross - 19-02-2015
David Josephs Wrote:Bob...
Shelley was either involved or watching the goings on for others...
I posted this before with a question mark, yet I am becoming more and more convinced that the man in these photos is Shelley, in New Orlean in August with the Cuban/Oswald/Bannister group. To me this is much more worrisome than some of their activity conflicts just after the shots... unless you can show they were somehow involved with the excape, planting of evidence, or who knows what... but we need a little evidence other than their testimony conflicts, imo.
Sure looks like him to me - over 2 months before Oswald is hired at the TSBD.. hmmmm
DJ
That's Shelly. I'd guess facial recognition software would put that probability above 95%.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Albert Doyle - 19-02-2015
The motion picture film that the Shelley photo is based on should be more useful in determining who it is.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Bob Prudhomme - 19-02-2015
Michael & Albert
If that is Shelley with Oswald in NO, someone has cropped his left ear off in the photo, as the other photos of Shelley show ears like Dumbo. I agree, Albert, the film would be helpful.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - David Josephs - 19-02-2015
That's what I thought too, Michael. Hard to imagine it being someone else from this composite...
Albert - it's just a frame grab.. looks good enough for me to tell.
Here is the change in Shelley's story... no more Gloria, no more RR tracks, and now a 10 minute timeline..
I have started other threads on this... (even Cinque picked it up and confirmed it a done deal)
Thanks to Ted ("R" I believe) for sticking up for me... (Mr. Gunther is not anyone I choose to deal with.. I pointed out once, in a group where he is a member that the 911 report's story has tell-tale signs of conspiracy and cover-up.. he called me unAmerican and luckily he's never forgiven me. Always amazes me when people claim that offerring an opinion to their disliking is anti- or un- American.... when the entire basis of America is the freedom to express opinions, even anti-American opinions, without persecution)
I wouldn't doubt that James "discovered" this - I never took credit for it, I just pointed it out and asked, "is it possible that this is Shelley, and if so, what are the implications"
I never would go so far as Cinque here to conclude it was him and to brate others for not seeing it.
Here's my original post where I "take credit"... :
hock::https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?13544-Is-that-SHELLEY-with-the-Oswald-Cuban-group-at-the-Trade-Mart-re-FPCC-in-Aug-1963
Much more important, if that is Shelley with Oswald in NOLA in the summer of 1963... WTF is going on?
Does this connect to his getting work at the TSBD, or at least it being arranged at this point in time?
Was he "With" Oswald or "against" him?
DJ
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Michael Cross - 19-02-2015
The two photos connected by the arrow/line/oval - that looks like the same ear to me, in different lighting at a different angle. Shadows and angles may account for the difference in appearance. Hair line, nose, cheeks, eybrows . . . everything else is spot on.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - David Josephs - 20-02-2015
I realize people are not symetrical.... but I wanted to see the other image reversed...
That looks alot like Shelley.
Lovelady in front of TSBD - Bob Prudhomme - 20-02-2015
Dave
You have made a very good post, and asked a couple of good questions.
We are finally getting down to the nitty gritty. Yes, it is possible that Victoria Adams and Sandra Styles made it down the stairs and outside, prior to Baker and Truly beginning their climb up the stairs, but I do not think it very likely.
Let's look again at her testimony that you quoted, plus the next two lines:
"Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.
Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out."
So, we have two impetuous and curious young ladies making a mad dash downstairs to see what has just occurred with the President outside the front of the building they work in. Oddly, they choose to go out the back door, and not the front door, where all the action was. No matter, their ultimate destination was the rail yard.
Would these two ladies have loitered very long on the main floor, or would they have made straight for the Houston St. dock?
Let's look again at the route taken by Shelley and Lovelady. Walking at what appears to be a casual saunter, they began at the steps of the TSBD and circumnavigated 3/4 of the TSBD, re-entering the building at the Houston St. dock. I will not add in the time they were speaking to Gloria Calvary, as I do not believe it happened, but we have to add a minute to their time to account for their brief stay at the rail yard.
On the other hand, how long did it take Adams and Styles to descend four floors to the main floor, and make it out to the Houston St. dock? According to Adams, she met Shelley and Lovelady inside the building "While I was on the way out." Let's see, according to the WC, it took Oswald 90 seconds to make it down four floors. However, he was observed lingering at the window for a brief time, and also had to pause to wipe his fingerprints off of the rifle. Shall we say a minute to descend four floors? Or less? The point I am making is that we have a paradox here. If Adams and Styles were going so fast, that they were off the stairs before Truly and Baker got to the back of the TSBD, how could they still be in the building when Shelley and Lovelady came in? Now, it is just possible they hung around the first floor long enough to allow both Shelley/Lovelady and Baker/Truly to all arrive at the back of the building but, her testimony says otherwise:
"Mr. BELIN - Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Any other people prior to the time you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the Stairs?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?
Miss ADAMS - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?
Miss ADAMS - Nothing.
Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?
Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock."
According to Ms. Adams, Shelley and Lovelady have circumnavigated the TSBD at a nice leisurely pace, stopping at the rail yard for a minute, and managed to beat Baker AND Victoria Adams to the back of the TSBD main floor. This is a little hard to swallow, considering Baker was on a dead run, and only needed 15 seconds from the time of the last shot to make it to the TSBD front door. Ms. Adams also testified to running down the stairs, although, with only 15 seconds to the front door, Baker only had to cross the main floor to the elevators, and should have been there long before Adams and Styles.
How did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the main floor before Adams/Styles and LONG before the high speed Baker? And how can they be seen in a film walking down the Elm St. extension, when they are supposed to be on the main floor of the TSBD, to be met by Styles and Adams as they come down the stairs?
Now, it is easy to speculate that, although Baker makes his way with great haste into the TSBD, he did not begin this run until much later than we assume. However, the Malcolm Couch film, showing Baker running into the TSBD (and supposedly Lovelady and Shelley walking down the Elm St. extension) was taken from the back of a press car in the motorcade, while the motorcade was temporarily stopped after the last shot. Just as the camera pans away from Baker, the motorcade takes off. I don't think we can make any adjustments to Baker's time, although no one can verify what became of him and Truly, once they went through the front entrance.
Suffice it to say, everything is backwards. Truly and Baker should have been the first ones at the back of the main floor, but they seem to be last. Shelley and Lovelady should have been the last ones there, but they appear to have beaten everyone.