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Thoughts on a bus trip - David Josephs - 15-01-2016
Jim...
John wrote that well before my thread and I addressed it directly with him.... in this context, I'd rather of heard your POV from your reading of the work.
I am not going to do this point by point as I believe my presentation of the info speaks for itself...
I am only going to look at a couple of things...
Quote:* Naysayers criticize bus driver Cecil McWatters because he could not positively identify Oswald as a passenger on his bus. Naysayers ignore McWatters' description of this one passenger and his clothinga man who rode in the middle of the bus for only 4 minutes. These naysayers forget there were perhaps dozens of bus passengers on several of McWatters' bus runs on 11/22/63, yet they endlessly criticize him for not remembering details about this one passenger.
&
Oswald could not have removed a reddish-colored, long-sleeved shirt with a button down collar, because he didn't own such a shirt. Oswald did remove one shirt and put it in his dresser drawer, as he told Capt. Fritz. This was his dirty white t-shirt, soiled around the collar.
McWatters is not criticized... nor are John's "Naysayers", at least this one, saying because of this one lack of ID it was not Oswald... there is much more to it, his lack of ID is simply another brick in that wall.
There is a difference between "could not ID" and what the FBI conveys about McWatters stating it was JONES... On March 26, 1964 Cecil identifies JONES as the man and Oswald as the smallest and most similar to JONES in the line-up. Sounds more to me that they TOLD him he gave a man a transfer and the story unfolds from there with the DPD making sure that the FBI knew that Cecil ID's Oswald.
His affidavit does not ID Oswald... we agree
His testimony supports that he did not ID Oswald.
Yet the DPD's Charlie Brown writes this about the line up results https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10488#relPageId=74&tab=page
"McWatters identified Oswald as the #2 man" which ultimately had to be corrected by McWatters himself down the road.
In their desire to put Ozzie on that bus, they overlook things like details, testimony, affidavits, and go with the plan...
As for the other comment about him changing his Tshirt - for which no evidence is offered... and then we are told since there is no photo of the shirt, it must not have existed...
This from the man who helped bring the inventory charade to light with the FBI taking and returning different evidence...
As I posted, the shirt and grey pants are listed on the inventory but there is no photo - hmmm, now why do you suppose that is Jim? Cause the photos would exactly match the clothes he was seen wearing before he changed?
Well, that's speculation... what's not is what was written in the Interrogation reports of Bookout, Hosty, Kelley and Fritz:
Let's not forget that the elbow hole Bledsoe claims she saw would have been under his Blue Jacket that MILTON and McWATTERS & WHALEY had him wearing... yet was miraculously gone when he walked past Roberts to his room... Amazing!
yet the shirt in question did not have that hole, the arrest shirt has the hole and torn buttons... - another reason not to photograph it or the pants which John freely admits he did change.
So Jim... instead of some blanket copy paste of John's presentation of both sides of the argument ... read the opposing position.
Read what I and others have posted and deal with the evidence and questions asked... not some set of bowling pins set up specifically to be knocked down...
You know I respect John immensely... I happen to think in this case he is trying to make yet another set of created incriminating Oswald evidence into something that really happened...
Maybe ask yourself why the DPD had to invent the McWatters busride. What method of travel home would they need to cover-up?
Maybe a ride in a Rambler in his tan, button down Briarloom? Didn't Fritz and others know about the Rambler story just after Oswald was brought in with Craig mentioning it and Ozzie exploding?? Yet the transfer is not FOUND for over 2 hours... hmmm.
This may also explain why the shirt was removed so soon... there could not be before and after witnesses to the clothing as Ozzie said he changed them early in the interrogation - the first Fritz note at 3:15pm states he changed clothes....
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh-- what 1 could toll of him sitting there, he was--uh---short. By that, I mean not--myself, I'm five eleven--he was shorter than I was. And--uh--fairly light build.
Mr. BELIN - Could you see his trousers?
Mr. CRAIG - No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr. BELIN - What about his shirt?
Mr. CRAIG - I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt--a white T-shirt.
Mr. BELIN - All right. But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr. CRAIG - No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr. CRAIG - Captain Fritz then asked him about the---uh---he said, "What about this station wagon?"And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"---I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And--uh--Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
Mr. BELIN - What was he wearing-or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Do you find it interesting that BELIN is so interested in what clothes he was NOW wearing?
Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Thoughts on a bus trip - Alan Ford - 15-01-2016
David Josephs Wrote:Quote: :: a rousing standing O, Mr. Joseph.
Also, what a very telling choice of words ---> Our intention is not to establish the point with completeaccuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies theconclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.
Translation, we are here to rubber stamp the whitewash, rather than actually evaluate actual evidence to the contrary....
underLIES
And I left out what may be the most interesting of the statements.
"I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture."
So Alan, at this point in time, April 1964, what do you suppose "the completely misleading picture" which was presented by the FBI and SS, was and what needed correction - the actual evidence or the story desired to be told?
The SBT was just being formulated based on the neck wound being accepted as an exit wound. Tague shows up in June/July.
It was after this letter, in May 1964 that the FBI got the surveyor Robert West to change his drawings to only show 2 shots....
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?15395-The-SS-and-FBI-place-4-shots-in-and-around-Z313-just-not-Z313 is a thread here where we've been discussing this.
I don't mean to mix threads - I only use this as illustration of the extent of deception employed and my incredulity at those who want to argue that specific items related to Oswald's guilt are genuine and authentic items of evidence rather than planted junk which the WC, FBI and CIA believed would never be examined by anyone.
DJ
IF the members of the United States Congress had your fortitude, Mr. Joseph, a House or Senate Bill pushing to reopen this case would have happened long ago. Courage like that doesn't grow on trees though, thus President Kennedy's admiration and respect for people of courage, prompting him to write his award winning bestseller, Profiles In Courage...
Once more for good measure, quote, "I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service, are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture."
Thoughts on a bus trip - Jim Hargrove - 15-01-2016
DJ....
We may just have to agree to disagree. To me, it's the totality of the evidence that makes me believe the Russian-speaking Oswald indeed got onto that bus, and that he was probably told to do so. Tippit's behavior at the Gloco station and his ad-libs immediately afterward suggests he was planning to meet our boy there.
The reddish-brown arrest shirt sure looks to me like the shirt on that fuzzy fellow in the TSBD doorway in the Altgens photo. If that's Harvey, as Harvey implied it was in Fritz's notes, it's case closed on the shirt. My guess is that Harvey treated that shirt more like a jacket than a shirt. He probably took it off to do work at he TSBD, stripping down to his undershirt, and then put it back on to go to the lunchroom or outdoors. He probably wore that same shirt, after changing his undershirt, to the theater.
The blond haired lady who may have been following Harvey from the bus to the taxi was cited by McWatters, Whaley, Bledsoe, and young Jones--AND OSWALD--according to Fritz's notes, which also say Harvey freely admitted traveling on the bus, and then the bus and the taxi. Despite the late appearance into the record, I've always sort of believed those notes. Knowing what we know now, it all kind of makes sense.
Finally, you and I agree that there were two similar-looking fellows using the same name floating around Dallas in the fall of 1963. The American-born kid was setting up the Russian-speaking kid for the fall. Is it so hard to believe that one was completing the frame-up on the sixth floor of the TSBD that afternoon, and that he escaped in a Nash Rambler right after the hit, leaving the Russian-speaking patsy to follow orders and get aboard that bus, the one Stuart Reed so carefully photographed?
Thoughts on a bus trip - Alan Ford - 15-01-2016
Though I personally do not believe the wrongfully accused boarded a bus or cab that afternoon, I do respect and admire the remarkable research presented by Mr. Hargrove and Mr. Armstrong.
However, I respectfully disagree on the bus ride taken by the individual in the reddish/brown shirt and gray pants, but am keeping an open mind to the possibility that someone bearing a strong likeness to the wrongfully accused may have in fact boarded a bus and cab akin to the dynamics we find in much of what Mr. Armstrong reports through the shadowing period/dynamics through junior high school, the military, one abroad/one here, etc. in this case.
My ego is the size of Rhode Island, so I'll remain open to the possibility that my thinking doesn't make it so in respect to the bus/cab scenarios. Just having a difficult time with his ripped and torn clothes happening sometime before the Texas Theatre episode. IF he really did go home and change his clothes, How do we come to terms with the ripped and torn gray pants? Was there a fight on the bus? Was there a fight in the cab? Where and when did his gray pants become ripped and torn?, if not at the Texas Theatre...
I'll have to take the wrongfully accused at his word, when asked by a reporter about his black eye, he doesn't mention an intense struggle with anyone else that afternoon other than the policemen in the Texas Theatre.