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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
Judyth and I have discussed this and I don't know why you think you can discredit her on this basis. QUOTE 1 is the basic story: she had told her agent at the time, Peter Cox, that they were going to meet in the Yucatan in the vicinity of Chichen Itz. Lee had not used the name "Cancun", which, as you have observed, did not exist other than in the form of the village of Kankun. She put her finger on a map at his request and he said, "Oh, Cancun!", and ran with it. Since in QUOTE 2 Shackelford said what had happened (how the misunderstanding had arisen), there is certainly no inconsistency there. And QUOTE 3 is one where Judyth is being more specific about what they (she and Lee) had actually discussed, where QUOTE 4 expands on their tentative plans. Mexico is a predominantly Catholic country, of course, so they would expect to be married by a priest. There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth. On the other hand, this appears to me to be a nice example of TRYING TO CREATE A CONFLICT rather than TRYING TO SORT THINGS OUT. I discussed each of the quotes with Judyth and, the more we talked about it, the more it became apparent to me that this arose from violating the condition of translation known as "the principle of charity", where you should (in ordinary conversational contexts) look for interpretations that make what you are being told come out to be true. Instead, you and your allies are looking for an interpretation that makes what you are being to told come out false. But it all hangs together the right way. I have done a YouTube interview with Judyth about this, which I recommend to everyone. This is a great to-do about nothing.
[quote name='David Lifton' post='191328' date='Apr 30 2010, 11:25 AM']
To Pat Speer, and others:
Agreed: the tape of my March 4, 2000 conversation with Judyth is completely unnecessary to evaluate Judyth’s credibility, and grasp the essential absurdity of most of her claims. All of this was debated ad nausea 10 years ago. Prof. Fetzer, perhaps unaware of the extent of this, is recycling the same old/same old.
For example, does Jim Fetzer fully understand the extent to which Judyth is already on record—and in writing—with most of this stuff??
Again, I advise: Just visit Dave Reitzes website—and his section of Judyth.
The link: http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html
For convenience, below my typed signature is the section in which he narrates the goofy back and forth of the “Cancun” part of the debate, which surfaced after Robert Chapman pointed out that Cancun did not exist as a resort back then, and Judyth was confronted with this major gaffe. As he narrates the back and forth of her “defense” (and the ebb and flow of this “debate”) each of his sentences carries a footnote, and the footnotes themselves refer back to voluminous documentation he culled –and organized—from the Internet news groups (and then printed below his narrative). So each refer back to specific posts of Judyth herself, Platzman, and Shackelford.
Again and again, Judyth offers explanations and excuses for her Cancun gaffe that are the linguistic and syntactical equivalent of “My dog ate it [i.e., my dog ate the homework]”.
Example 1: Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, October 9, 2004:
QUOTE: "The Cancun matter was an insertion by my literary agent that was missed by Dr.Platzman [sic]. He took the blame for allowing it to remain in the manuscript. But it was my fault, too.. . .
Lee indeed said we would meet in a fine hotel, but his tone of voice was so full of irony I didn't know if he was joking. He never said we would meet in Cancun. Typos and errors will happen. That we would meet in an area NEAR present-day Cancun is what was always meant, and if I typed Cancun instead, God forgive me. . . END QUOTE
DSL note: This is after numerous other posts in which she claimed she never said any such thing (and I was accused of malice, simply because I accurately reported what she told me on the phone, on March 4, 2000).
Example 2 (from Shackelford, on September 27, 2004):
QUOTE : "It has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO with the resort being there in 1963--they weren't planning on going to a resort. They were planning to go to the Yucatan and look at the ruins. '' wasn't supposed to refer specifically to the ruins either--just the area." END QUOTE
Example 3—Judyth, newsgroup post, July 5, 2004:
QUOTE: "The actual location was not where Lee and I expected to go to a hotel, only to meet . . . we were going to then go explore Chichen Itza, which was supposed to be relatively close, and ruins, all of which we believed from a book [sic] we read together was in Quintana Roo . . . we were going to go to a fine hotel...maybe that was a joke of Lee's...and we were going to get a Catholic priest to marry us." UNQUOTE
((DSL comment: Attention All Readers Please Note: Lee, an atheist, and married to Marina, loving his daughter June, and happily expecting the birth of his second child. . . was planning to go off with this lady “to get a Catholic priest to marry us” ?! - - -Oh pleeez.))
Example 4: --Judyth herself, Internet post, October 9, 2004:
QUOTE "Lee never mentioned the name of this city as a meeting place. He spoke of Merida in other contexts. I decided this must have been the 'city' in the Yucatan where we hoped to marry - on my own, as he mentioned we would be flying from the city where we would marry on the Cayman islands. When, later, I learned that flights from Merida to the Cayman Islands were known to occur, I then assumed the city was Merida." UNQUOTE
And Jim Fetzer thinks a tape made in March, 2000, is necessary to see whether Cancun could perhaps have been confused (by me) with Kankun, and that “that” offers an explanation for this farce?
DSL
4/30/10 2:30 AM PDT
Los Angeles, CA
Copied below from the Reitzes website, the section on Judyth, and specifically, the part of the narrative about her meeting Lee at Cancun. Each of the numbered notes refer to his documentation, which appears beneath the essay, at his website.
NOW QUOTING. . . :
Had Oswald escaped Dallas alive, he and Judyth planned to meet at a fine hotel in Cancun, Mexico, and get married. (It was subsequently pointed out by David Lifton and Robert Chapman that Cancun was an uninhabited jungle in 1963; the resort city was conceived years later.) (96)
Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton.(97)
Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton and John McAdams. (98)
Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by Dave Reitzes. (99)
Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by co-author Howard Platzman. (100)
No, it wasn't.(101)
Judyth never said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by her former agent, Peter Cox.(102)
No, it wasn't.(103)
Well, maybe it was.(104)
Hypothetically speaking. (105)
Okay, Judyth said it after all. (106)
But she didn't mean it. She only meant Cancun as a rough geographical indicator of where the planned meeting-place actually had been. (107)
What she meant was that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in the rustic village of Kankun, Mexico.(108)
Actually, Cancun and the fine hotel had nothing to do with each other; some of the words were accidentally reversed in that particular draft of her manuscript. (109)
Perhaps "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part. (110)
Of course "fine hotel" was merely a joke on Oswald's part, and Judyth knew that at the time. (111)
Nevertheless, she and Oswald might have ended up staying in a fine hotel just the same. (112)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Chichen Itza, Mexico -- 125 miles from present-day Cancun. (113)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Merida, Mexico -- 200 miles from present-day Cancun. (114)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Belize, Mexico -- 350 miles from present-day Cancun. (Note: There was no Belize in 1963; it was called British Honduras until years later.) (115)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico -- well over a thousand miles from present-day Cancun. (116)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in the Cayman Islands of the Caribbean; Cancun was just a stopover. (117)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in Mexico. Exploration of ancient Mayan ruins and a visit to a large city in the Yucatan were additional possible plans. After marriage, their final destination was probably going to be the Cayman Islands. (118)
END QUOTE
Again, for a detailed exposition of all the footnotes (and much other information on the Judyth story), just go Reitzes website (and again, to this link, for the footnotes):
http://www.jfk-online.com/judyth-story.html[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT MARMOSETS
Judyth writes that the project used relatively few marmosets--which editors of her book have known for a long time prior to the issue being raised...She asks, Where did Jack White gets the idea of many marmosets, when it was explained that they quickly moved on to green monkeys (and even some rhesus monkeys)? He ignored the other monkeys. The marmosets were in cages that were quite small, but of course they were only baby marmosets, and were soon sacrificed --the technical term, their fast-growing tumors harvested to be used to proceed to the next stage--using many, much larger monkeys. White continues to ignore the fact that this transit stage was brief and involved relatively few marmosets--perhaps 50.
[quote name='Jack White' post='191311' date='Apr 30 2010, 05:17 AM']
[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='191300' date='Apr 30 2010, 01:20 AM']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='191232' date='Apr 29 2010, 04:47 PM']
They were using tiny marmosets,...[/quote]
Ahh, that explains it ... they were *tiny* marmosets ... no wonder she forgot about
them and they weren't part of her original story ...
[/quote]
Tiny marmosets die quickly without their parents. Marmosets live in FAMILIES and require large cages.
Marmosets were not used for medical research in 1963.
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
JUDYTH TALKS ABOUT LEE'S EXPECTATIONS FOR THE FUTURE
NOTE: Thanks for your intelligent comments, Pamela. They are much appreciated in the context of this thread.
Lee Oswald was involved in The Project before I was. He had been ordered to conduct a pro-Castro campaign in Dallas, to commence right after Gen. Walker had been fired upon. Lee complied and it is on record that he conducted his first pro-Cuba demonstration, handing out leaflets, in Dallas prior to his move to New Orleans (skeptics, go look it up!). He confided in me that he realized that he was placed in that dangerous position to 'test' his loyalty. He was very concerned because of the hypersensitivity of the Dallas police after the Walker incident-- he realized they might arrest him, beat him up, jail him, or maybe kill him. He told me he advised Marina of the potential dangers to him and how it might affect her. A note he is said to have written to Marina, about what to do if these bad things happened to him, has been used to link him to the Walker shooting, though it was undated. His leafletting was only days after the incident, and he complained afterwards that he wished to be transferred to New Orleans, where he had been apprised that he could be useful.
Lee arrived in New Orleans within the week that I had. He met with David Ferrie the evening before I met him. He agreed to become involved in The Project before I met him, and he spoke to Dr. Ochsner for forty-five minutes before I was able to speak to Ochsner. Near the end, when so much had gone wrong, Lee told me, "It wasn't your fault (that he had gotten involved)." He said that he had been assigned by the CIA to snoop on Ochnser's project and had accepted the assignment. CIA wanted to know the progress and prognosis in reference to the success (or not) of The Project. CIA wanted control of it and feared Ochsner might lose control. Lee was willing to learn so much about certain lab procedures, he told me, originally so he would be able to transfer information to CIA.
He became essential to the Mexico City handoff where he would orally transmit the information. But in the process of that assignment, Lee was set up. Ochsner certainly had expressed his displeasure about my anger at using a prisoner who did NOT have terminal cancer--as I had been told at first -- a prisoner who I discovered was not even informed about the nature of the experiment. I was outraged and protested by note. As for Lee, after he had his mission aborted in Mexico City--but not before he was framed there--he was ordered to Dallas. As Lee explained to me, however, he had volunteered for this, it was not my fault simply because I'd protested, because well before this, Lee had been treated badly --such as when he was shown to Veciana in the presence of his handler, and other incidents. Lee had confided to me that he was "better off dead" to both sides, neither of which felt they could trust him.
Lee's belief was that he had been set up to be framed in Mexico City well before I made my protest, because he had been told to do leafletting RIGHT AFTER THE RAID at the camp near Lake Pontchartrain.. Anti-Castro Cubans in New Orleans were up in arms, angry at the FBI raid, etc. And here Lee is told to do the leafletting anyway. No respect for him, his safety, Lee realized. Lee got it put off a week. He was ordered to Dallas after the failed Mexico City endeavor. He did stop at the US Public Health Service border unit at the Mexican border where he left some kind of message about having left the bioweapon behind. He also inquired regarding 'quickie divorces' at the border towns before crossing over, according to records minimized as to importance by the FBI.
Lee Oswald had been assigned by the CIA to penetrate The Project. He did an excellent job. But he believed as early as July that he was a dead man, as I reported in 1999.
JVB
[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='191368' date='May 1 2010, 02:20 AM']
[quote name='Lee Farley' post='191356' date='Apr 30 2010, 04:27 PM']
[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='191353' date='Apr 30 2010, 10:06 PM']
[quote name='Lee Farley' post='191352' date='Apr 30 2010, 03:13 PM']
[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='191350' date='Apr 30 2010, 08:53 PM']
You have discounted all the evidence that shows that LHO was trying to send Marina back to USSR.[/quote]
I'll try again.
...and he'd lose his kids?
And just in case it's lost on you I'll ask you one more time to be sure.
...and he'd lose his kids?
[/quote]
Nevertheless, this was the path LHO was pursuing. Why not accept that?
[/quote]
Accept what? That he was prepared to lose the one thing he actually unconditionally loved in his life? His daughters!
I can accept that letters were sent to the Russian Embassy (by both Marina and Lee - or persons unknown) but I also accept that we'll never know why they were sent? But you perhaps think your guess is better than other guesses?
[/quote]
Can you accept that Lee said to consider his request separately? Did it occur to you to take that seriously?
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
ADDITIONAL YOUTUBE INTERVIEWS WITH JUDYTH VARY BAKER
![[Image: 63vxqa.jpg]](http://i40.tinypic.com/63vxqa.jpg)
![[Image: 155t0fk.jpg]](http://i43.tinypic.com/155t0fk.jpg)
![[Image: 2qkjj8p.jpg]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2qkjj8p.jpg)
![[Image: abs745.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/abs745.jpg)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
MORE YOU TUBE INTERVIEWS WITH JUDYTH VARY BAKER
![[Image: 2h654so.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/2h654so.jpg)
BONUS INTERVIEW
![[Image: 2h7qas3.jpg]](http://i44.tinypic.com/2h7qas3.jpg)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
JIM REPLIES TO THE ANTI-JUDYTH VARY BAKER CULT OF LIFTON/WELDON/WHITE/JUNKKARINEN
NOTE: I love this Lifton/Weldon/White/Junkkarinen "brain trust". No matter what we provide in the form of refutations of specific claims, like this Lifton nonsense about "Cancun/Kankun", the myths persist. This does not appear to be a research effort but the performance of a cult, where the method of tenacity prevails, which is not going to change its mind, no matter what the evidence. This is a self-preservation exercise. What more can we do than repost previous replies:
Judyth and I have discussed this and I don't know why you think you can discredit her on this basis. QUOTE 1 is the basic story: she had told her agent at the time, Peter Cox, that they were going to meet in the Yucatan in the vicinity of Chichen Itz. Lee had not used the name "Cancun", which, as you have observed, did not exist other than in the form of the village of Kankun. She put her finger on a map at his request and he said, "Oh, Cancun!", and ran with it. Since in QUOTE 2 Shackelford said what had happened (how the misunderstanding had arisen), there is certainly no inconsistency there. And QUOTE 3 is one where Judyth is being more specific about what they (she and Lee) had actually discussed, where QUOTE 4 expands on their tentative plans. Mexico is a predominantly Catholic country, of course, so they would expect to be married by a priest. There is nothing here that impugns the integrity of Judyth. On the other hand, this appears to me to be a nice example of TRYING TO CREATE A CONFLICT rather than TRYING TO SORT THINGS OUT. I discussed each of the quotes with Judyth and, the more we talked about it, the more it became apparent to me that this arose from violating the condition of translation known as "the principle of charity", where you should (in ordinary conversational contexts) look for interpretations that make what you are being told come out to be true. Instead, you and your allies are looking for an interpretation that makes what you are being to told come out false. But it all hangs together the right way. I have done a YouTube interview with Judyth about this, which I recommend to everyone. This is a great to-do about nothing.
[quote name='David Lifton' post='191407' date='May 1 2010, 11:37 AM']Dixie,
Thanks for your post, and especially this part:
QUOTE:
In addition, there has been a whole lot of past discussion regarding the CanCun story, as David Lifton has mentioned.... . . after she learned there was no CanCun Resort at that time, she denied ever saying that. Then later she claimed it was her past agent that added it and she had only meant the CanCun area, since she didn't feel anyone would know where nearby Chichen Itza was. (It is not all that nearby though). So, then a woman on the discussion group posted some info that the Village of KanKun had been there for many, many years and she even had a link to an old map, showing it. In addition, that same woman mentioned there had been a nice hotel in Chichen Itza for years....the Mayaland Hotel. Up until that point, Judyth was still denying she ever said it was a fine hotel in CanCun. But suddenly with that new info and after mentioning various places they intended to visit, she ran with it....and later appeared in her book, as her own claim. Now she insists that she had always known about the old Village of KanKun. If so, it never came up until that woman appeared with that info....then sudenly she had always known it and what she meant when speaking to David L. I just do not buy that, at that point in time, when she spoke to him. UNQUOTE
If you can ever come up with the actual Internet posts --including the date(s)--of the woman who volunteered this information (i.e., who discovered "Kankun", and posted that data) I would appreciate having these details. They mark an important "inflection point" in the evolution of her story. Because they demonstrate exactly how Judyth operates, and how she bobs and weaves around the existing record. In this instance, first she tap danced around the major gaffe she had committed; and then, when she learned of "Kankun," she immediateley adjusted/changed her story to incorporate the new-found information. That's precisely how she handles inconsistencies, "making it up" as the goes along. She evinces the psychology (and even the methodology) of a combination of producer and screenwriter of her own fictions, who, when a gaffe has occurred in a film shoot, respondings by saying, "Oh well, we'll fix that in the editing room."
In this case, the "editing room" is the fertile imagination of Judyth's mind.
This would all be very amusing if it were not the case that this lady if hawking a completely fictional history of a major aspect of the Kennedy assassination, duping many who should know better, and, in addition, besmirching the true character of someone she claims to have loved.
I'm not surprised that someone who claims to have seen the Zapruder film at a New York City theater, in the fall of 1964 (when it was clearly under lock and key, and obviously not being screened at any New York City theater) should rush to her defense, but I would think most people, without an agenda, and with a modicum of good judgment, would know better, and behave accordingly.
What total nonsense.
DSL
5/1/10 2:25 AM
Los Angeles, CA[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
Sorry about that, Bernicie. These links should work:
1/6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mou2Tj3RaGA
2/6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7-cv8U6WrQ
3/6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWU6SrRAEU
4/6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbMrgJEUmM
5/6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWfpxiVMI58
6/7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5rVd_wK-bE
1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQHGbeAF3gg
[quote name='Bernice Moore' post='191389' date='May 1 2010, 06:30 AM']
WHERE DO YOU CLICK ON THE INTERVIEWS DR.JIM I CANNOT GET ANY TO WORK, THEY ARE LIKE JUST PHOTOS..NO LINKS...THANKS B I BELIEVE THIS LINK WILL TAKE YOU TO THE VIDEOS FYI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCWU6SrRAEU[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
QUESTIONS FOR JACK WHITE ABOUT METHODOLOGY AND "PRIMARY RESEARCH"
Jack,
After raking leaves for a few hours and thinking about this post, I have a few questions:
(1) Is the FOIA route the one that you and John Armstrong adopted in your research on
HARVEY & LEE? If so, that might explain quite a lot. Has it ever crossed you mind that
the CIA and the FBI might not be the most reliable sources about the JFK assassination?
(2) Judyth has told me on several occasions that Lee had explained to her that the CIA
was creating a "false personal history" for him so he could return to a normal life after
his covert assignments. Did you and John take that into account in doing your research?
(3) Doesn't that suggest that, if there really were "two Oswalds" (other than Robert and
Lee), then you should have uncovered THREE: your "Harvey", your "Lee", plus the fake
personal history the CIA had created? Could you have confounded "Lee" and the fake?
(4) Judyth observed that, in relation to some of your photographic studies, the case for
"a second Oswald" appears to depend on photos that only differ with respect to, say,
their aspect ratio. You are aware of this. Has it affected your case for "two Oswalds"?
(5) Some of your argument are based on assuming that photos with asymmetrical
features might be composites. But don't most people have asymmetrical features?
Have you done studies by doing what you have done to Oswald photos with others?
(6) You suggest FOIAing the CIA and FBI as "primary research". I don't get it. Aren't
witness interviews the most important and primary research, since they are required
to authenticate photos and films? Is that a procedure that you and John followed?
(7) Why are you suggesting that I should so some "primary research"? Surely what I
am doing in interviewing the person who appears to be the most knowledgeable witness
to Lee's activities in New Orleans is "primary research" if any research on JFK is primary.
This is a nice example of your utter incapacity to break free from your preconceptions.
Jim
[quote name='Jack White' post='191520' date='May 2 2010, 05:27 PM']
There are multiple ways of verifying some of the Judyth tales:
1. File a FOIA request with the CIA and FBI regarding their files on Judyth Vary/Judyth Vary Baker
in 1963 in relation to New Orleans, Lee Harvey Oswald, David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Alton Oschner,
Carlos Marcello, Clay Shaw, Fidel Castro, Reily Coffee, Jackson Hospital, medical research, monkey
virus, etc. It is known that the FBI had extensive files on many of these subjects and had many
of them UNDER CONSTANT SURVEILLANCE, noting all of their contacts. Any mention of Vary/Baker
in relation to any of these subjects would be substantiation perhaps that some portions of her
story is true. However, the ABSENCE of ANY mention of Vary/Baker might be equally revealing.
The CIA was running some of these operations, so their records would be revealing, even if
heavily redacted.
2. Locate Robert Baker, her former husband, and pose many reasonable questions regarding the
period of 1963 and any knowledge he has regarding the activities of his wife. One researcher
pointed out to me that there is a conflict even in the circumstances of the Baker marriage. This
source says that the quickie elopement did not happen as JVB describes. This source says that
she and Baker were married in Florida in a traditional wedding, and this can be proved by
marriage license and other records. If this is true (I have no way of knowing), then why would
JVB say that Baker showed up in New Orleans and demanded an immediate marriage, so they
eloped? If she is wrong about how and when she was married, this would cast a large cloud over
anything else she says.
3. Check college records. My source says that Judyth and Robert were classmates at the
University of Florida (Gainesville?) BEFORE she went to New Orleans. If she was a student
there before going to New Orleans, why does her story omit this detail?
There are other obvious civil records which can be consulted. Why not cease the arguing and
do some primary research?
Jack[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
David,
Citing Dean Hagerman on Judyth could hardy be less appropriate. His
understanding of this case is about as superficial as it comes--like yours!
Those who have actually spent time with Judyth believe in her. There is
no "demeanor" problem. You are pulling that out of you anal aperture.
Nigel Turned spend hundreds of hours with her. Howard Platzman spent
a huge amount of time with her--at this point, spanning years and years.
Edward Haslam interrogated her relentlessly. I have spent hundreds and
hundreds of hours in communication and dealing with her face to face.
Your shabby treatment of her is beneath contempt. If you believed in
your purported "evidence" you would share it with me. You have not.
We even did a YouTube on "The "Cancun/Kankun" Contretempts, but
apparently you have not watched it, typical of your conduct here.
I can't believe you have the nerve to show up here, time after time,
with these cheap comments that reiterate your indefensible stance.
You have a motive that drives you--to protect your investment in your
manuscript, which I presume has to be tossed if Judyth is correct.
You are not only discrediting your self with irresponsible remarks but
have not even shown the courage to state your take on HARVEY & LEE.
Why don't you come back when you have the integrity to share your
cassette, because I do not believe anything you say about Judyth.
My experience with her is overwhelmingly greater than yours, and I
am completely convinced that she is the person that she claims to be.
And there is no reason in the world to suppose that my conlcusion in
this matter should be inferior to yours, which is driven by self-interest.
Either come clean with your evidence or acknowledge that what you
can contribute has been far exceeded by the discussion on this thread.
I, like Nigel Turner, like Howard Platzman, like Edwar Haslam, all know
Judyth overwhelmingly better than do you. And all of us believe in her.
Jim
[quote name='David Lifton' post='191582' date='May 3 2010, 01:50 PM']
[quote name='Dean Hagerman' post='191519' date='May 2 2010, 03:58 PM']
Jim
I have just finished every video you posted with Judyth
I promise you I watched them with an open mind
I feel the exact same about Judyth after watching them Jim
She is not telling the truth
Just listen to her fantastic stories about meeting Hemming and him just telling Judyth about all of his activities like its no big deal
Just listen to her talk about David Ferrie and the fact that she was at his house for Parties and all this research, I mean come on there is no way in hell any of it is true
Jim I did what you asked, the videos have no evidence that Judyth and LHO were lovers
All they are is Judyth telling fairy tales[/quote]
Hello Dean,
What you wrote is (of course) subjective, but nonetheless, you're now getting a sense of exactly how I felt after speaking with Judyth on March 4, 2000. You've just had the "Judyth experience" on video. I had it "on audio." It was very unsettling, because it appeared so ridiculous, yet there were those who actually believed her. (And still do.)
As anyone knows who deals with witnesses, demeanor counts.
Completely aside from the factual problems, I found her demeanor to be "non-credible," to put it politely.
DSL
5/3/10; 4:45 AM PDT
Los Angeles, CA
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 04-05-2010
ALTON OCHSNER, M.D.: A BIOGRAPHY
Adapted from Spartacus with information by Judyth Vary Baker
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKochsner.htm
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Edward William Alton Ochsner, the son of German immigrants, was born in Kimball, South Dakota, on 4th May, 1896. His uncle, A. J. Ochsner, a famed surgeon, was the founder and president of the American College of Surgeons.
Ochsner studied at Washington University, St. Louis before moving to the University of Wisconsin Medical School. He then went to work with A. J. Ochsner in Chicago where he helped develop techniques for blood typing.
Michael DeBakey, the world-famed heart surgeon who was mentored by Ochsner, wrote of him in glowing terms:
“He was the ideal mentor, disciplined yet compassionate, demanding yet charismatic, awe-inspiring yet accessible, and exemplary as a teacher, model, scientist, and friend. …completing his residency training at Augustana Hospital in Chicago, he studied abroad and had a short stint at the University of Wisconsin Medical School before settling in New Orleans, Louisiana, for a notable career in American surgery. His leadership qualities were manifest early. While studying in Switzerland and Germany, he introduced blood transfusion to the European medical community and soon became "the blood transfusion specialist" of Europe. His keen sense of observation was similarly evident early in his career. “
In 1939 Alton Ochsner and Michael DeBakey published an article suggesting a link between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. His close friends in the medical world, Dr. Harold Diehl (Vice President of Research for the American Cancer Society) and Dr. George Moore (Director of Roswell Park Memorial Institute for Cancer Research) assisted him in his crusade against smoking, testifying with him in court cases involving smoking and lung cancer.
As a result of his research, international ties and fund raising, the Ochsner Clinic, established in 1942, grew rapidly. Along with William Donovan (Head of the OSS and a founder of the CIA) Ochsner was on the board of the American Cancer Society. Later he became president of the organization. In 1952 Ochsner appointed Mary Sherman to take control of the bone cancer laboratory that today is named in her honor. In 1955 he published Smoking and Cancer: A Doctor's Report.
Ochsner was a passionate anti-communist, and after becoming friends with U.S. Secretary of State Cordell Hull, was invited to look after Tomas Gabriel Duque, the former dictator of Panama. He also become friends with Anastasio Somoza, the dictator of Nicaragua, and his family. Ochsner also secretly treated Juan Peron, the dictator of Argentina, in an emergency leg operation. A frequent traveler to Latin American countries, he was honored with numerous medals and awards from dictators and leaders throughout Latin America and Cuba.
The FBI maintained a file on Ochsner. This file was recently released under the Freedom of Information Act. It shows that Ochsner had a long relationship with various U.S. government agencies. A. J. Weberman and others state that he gave personal reports to US Army Surgeon Generals, flying to Washington as often as once a week.
Ochsner also developed a close friendship with Texas oil magnate Clint Murchison, who helped fund various right-wing organizations. Ochsner was also closely connected to Warren Commission member Hale Boggs. According to one Louisiana State Representative, Ochsner was "the most aggressive seeker and recipient of so-called federal handouts in the Second District (Hale Boggs' district).
In 1961 Ochsner, with the financial help of Clint Murchison, established the Information Council of the Americas (INCA). Ed S. Butler was appointed as Executive Director of INCA. The main objective of the organization was to prevent communist revolutions in Latin America. Ochsner told the New Orleans States Item: "We must spread the warning of the creeping sickness of communism faster to Latin Americas, and to our own people, or Central and South America will be exposed to the same sickness as Cuba." (16th April, 1963)
Edgar and Edith Stern, owners of WDSU radio and television, were members of INCA. Eustis Reily of the Reily Coffee Company personally donated thousands of dollars to INCA. However, it was Patrick J. Frawley, a Californian industrialist and close friend of Richard Nixon, who was INCA's largest financial contributor. The organization used some of this money to make a film about Fidel Castro entitled, Hitler in Havana. The New York Times reviewed the film calling it a "tasteless affront to minimum journalistic standards." INCA created “Truth Tapes” that were sent to hundreds of radio stations throughout Latin America.
One of Ochsner's friends described him as being "like a fundamentalist preacher in the sense that the fight against communism was the only subject that he would talk about, or even allow you to talk about, in his presence."
Edward Haslam argues in Dr. Mary's Monkey that "Ochsner's hospital was one of the 159 covert research centers which the CIA had admitted to setting up." Haslam believes that Ochsner recruited Mary Sherman to run the research operation that would eventually lead to the development of a bioweapon, though originally, Ochsner’s interest in the deadly side of medical projects had been sparked by the death of his grandson. Ochsner had publicly administered a dose of the contaminated Cutter Laboratories polio vaccine to his own grandson, who died shortly afterward. Ochsner and Sherman wanted to improve the vaccine, but efforts to do so resulted in the discovery of a mutated monkey virus that had potential as a bioweapon when combined with powerful strains of cancer.
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The basic project was set up March 23, 1962, using conventional facilities, which then expanded out of the loop for its final phases. Haslam believes that Sherman, at first involved in carrying out secret research into developing a vaccine to prevent an epidemic of soft-tissue cancers caused by the polio vaccine contaminated with SV-40, eventually joined Ochsner in his search for an effective bioweapon for use against “another Hitler, such as Castro,” as witness Judyth Vary Baker has pointed out.
Their work included using a linear particle accelerator located in the Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Public Health Service Hospital in New Orleans. According to Haslam there were other labs set up to isolate various parts of the project. One such lab, the “Mouse House,” handled the smaller lab animals that had been inoculated with the cancer strains, not far from David Ferrie’s apartment. The processing and selection of ever-more aggressive tumors and cell lines, destined for more recycling and radiation, involved the use of David Ferrie’s large kitchen in his apartment on Louisiana Avenue Parkway. The product was then handled by Dr. Sherman, who made additional decisions
Ochsner was strongly opposed to the domestic and foreign policy of President John F. Kennedy. He wrote to Senator Allen Ellender: "I sincerely hope that the Civil Rights Bill can also be defeated, because if it was passed, it would certainly mean virtual dictatorship by the President and the Attorney General, a thing I am sure they both want."
Ochsner was also friends with Clay Shaw. Ochsner was president of the International House, whereas Shaw was the long-time director of the organization. Shaw was also a director of the International Trade Mart in New Orleans. Both men were also directors of the Foreign Policy Association of New Orleans and arranged for a CIA Deputy Director to New Orleans to discuss the communist threat.
Ochsner sat on the National Institute of Health Board of Directors. A fellow director in the early 1960s was Jose Rivera. In 1963 Rivera was in New Orleans handing out research grants from NIH to the Tulane Medical School.
The records of the Mexican consulate office in New Orleans show that when Lee Harvey Oswald obtained his visa for his trip to Mexico, William Gaudet’s number was next—he was probably standing right behind him (though he denied this). . As Edward Haslam points out in DR. MARY'S MONKEY: "Gaudet. is known to have worked for the CIA and edited an anti-Communist newsletter which Ochsner financed."
Adele Edisen, a neurologist, has revealed that in April 1963, Jose Rivera, gave her the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his New Orleans phone number three weeks before he moved to the city.
On 21st July, 1964, the same day the Warren Commission came to New Orleans to obtain unsolicited testimonies, Mary Sherman was brutally murdered. The following day, Ochsner wrote a letter to R. H. Crosby, his largest financial contributor saying "our Government, our schools, our press, and our churches have become infiltrated with Communism".
In 1967 Jim Garrison began investigating the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans. Ochsner told a friend that he feared Garrison would order his arrest and the seizure of INCA's corporate records. Ed Butler took these records to California where Patrick J. Frawley arranged for them to be hidden. Ronald Reagan, the governor of California refused all of Garrison's extradition requests. Frawley had previously helped fund Reagan's political campaigns in California. In 2000, Sixty Minutes located a document from the Garrison investigation regarding Ochsner’s possible indictment, along with officials from Reily Coffee Company, where Oswald had worked in 1963.
Ochsner attacked the Garrison investigation as being "unpatriotic" because it eroded public confidence and threatened the stability of the American government. In his article, “Social Origins of Anticommunism: The Information Council of the Americas” (Louisiana History, Spring 1989) Arthur Carpenter claimed that Ochsner launched a propaganda campaign against Garrison. This included sending information to a friend who was the publisher of the Nashville Banner. It is known from Grand Jury testimony that former Reily Vice President William I. Monaghan (also former FBI) obstructed the Garrison investigation as well.
According to Carpenter, Ochsner also attempted to discredit Mark Lane, who was assisting the Garrison investigation. He told Felix Edward Hebert that Lane was "a professional propagandist of the lunatic left." Ochsner also instructed Herbert to tell HUAC’s Edwin E. Willis (Chairman of the House Unamerican Activities Committee) to dig up "whatever information you can" on Lane.
Felix Edward Hebert later sent Ochsner a report on Mark Lane extracted from confidential government files. This included "the files of the New York City Police, the FBI, and other security agencies." These files claimed that Lane was "a sadist and masochist, charged on numerous occasions with sodomy". Hebert also supplied Ochsner with a photograph that was supposed to be Lane engaged in a sadomasochistic act with a prostitute.
Ochsner had a close friendship with Anna Chennault, whose husband, and also Ochsner’s friend, Claire Chennault, ran a Flying Tiger CIA flight operation over China. She served as an intermediary to Vietnam for Nixon and played a role in extending the Vietnam War. Ochsner later married another Nixon associate after his first wife, a non-smoker, died of a galloping lung cancer.
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Alton Ochsner died of heart surgery complications on 6th September, 1981.